Correct pulleys for 440 w/AC

[70Tom]

OK, so after doing research today, I figured out why my car is running hot at stoplights after the car has been running for a good amount of time. Previous owner put non-A/C pulleys on the car and kept the stock A/C water pump. So, essentially, it's running a 6-blade water pump with a larger diameter pulley=coolant is not getting circulated quickly enough. So, seeing as I'm going to reinstall the A/C at some point, it makes more sense to put the original pulleys back on instead of replacing the pump with an 8 blade.

However, here's my question: is this the water pump pulley? It seems too short--as if there should be an adapter for the fan to get it closer to the radiator. If anyone who has a picture of a stock 440 w/AC set up, I'd appreciate if you could post it. I'm downloading the service and parts manual now, so hopefully I'll get to the bottom of this.

Engine is a 1969.

 

[commando1]

That is indeed a water pump pulley. And I have heard of instances more than once it was installed backwards.

 

[70Tom]

The bell goes out, just like on the non-A/C pulley, correct?

I guess my next thing will be what size belt I need depending on routing. I'm not sure where the idler pulley goes on this engine and would rather not hook it up yet until I get he rest of the A/C stuff on there.

 

[MrMoparCHP]

Here is a picture of my car (a 69), the water pump pulley is correct. This car has a clutch fan which has the spacer built into it.

not sure why this picture isn't showing, here is a link to it
http://www.mrmopar.com/1969PolaraCHP/800/2014-11-15_003.jpg

The fan is not installed yet. The crank pulley is a 4-groove pulley, water pump uses the front groove, power steering pump the second, alternator/ac the rear 2 grooves.

Alan

 

[70Tom]

Thanks for the picture. I wonder if, for now, I should just leave the routing of the belt the same and just buy a 2" (or whatever difference in diameter is on the water pump pulley) shorter belt. Hmm....

 

[bluefury361]

Thanks for the picture. I wonder if, for now, I should just leave the routing of the belt the same and just buy a 2" (or whatever difference in diameter is on the water pump pulley) shorter belt. Hmm....

The belt tension adjustment is with the idler.

 

[Big_John]

Here's the question... Do you want this to be "correct" in appearance or do you want it to function?

My car was missing the A/C compressor etc. and had pulleys like yours in their place. When I added the new rotary compressor, I used the brackets from Bouchillon performance along with this pulley: BPE Water Pump Pulley - Bouchillon Performance Engineering

The pulley eliminated the idler pulley and one belt. You use the rear groove (leave the front empty) and loop the belt around the water pump and steering pump. The steering pump will then adjust the tension for the belt.

IMHO, if you are more concerned with function, this is the way to go. Dollar wise, it's about the same when you figure the cost of an idler pulley and one more belt.

 

[70Tom]

I actually have the idler pulley, so it looks like I'll be putting everything (minuns compressor) back. I'll have to compensate on belt size however, if I don't install the compressor (don't want to do that yet as I want to have it gone through and make sure everything is ok with it; not to mention I have to replace the heater core/condenser so the A/C isn't ready to go yet either.)

 

[Big_John]

I actually have the idler pulley, so it looks like I'll be putting everything (minuns compressor) back. I'll have to compensate on belt size however, if I don't install the compressor (don't want to do that yet as I want to have it gone through and make sure everything is ok with it; not to mention I have to replace the heater core/condenser so the A/C isn't ready to go yet either.)

I don't think that will work without the compressor.

The belt for the alternator now also drives the water pump. If you change the water pump pulley, the alternator would now have to be driven directly from the crank pulley. The geometry just doesn't work. The belt hits the water pump.

I've gone through this on my car.

One other thing, replace the used idler pulley if you are going to use one. The idler pulleys (in my experience) have a limited life span and you might as well replace it now rather than having it seize at a bad time.

 

[70Tom]

I would still like to see an engine with a complete stock A/C system and pulleys, if possible. Just want to get an idea where all brackets go, etc. Also, in Alan's pic above, is that the stock pulley on the alternator? Mine just has a single groove and looks nothing like that.

Also, if I ran the belt the way a non-AC car does, it would go from crank pulley and around the water pump pulley and the alternator pulley. That is, unless it wouldn't fit around the alternator pulley due to alignment issues. If it does fit around the alternator, I can just adjust belt tension that way.

 

[MrMoparCHP]

Without AC you will need the water pump pulley that has more offset. You will then eliminate the idler and use a single belt around the crank/water-pump/alternator.


Alan

 

[MrMoparCHP]

I would still like to see an engine with a complete stock A/C system and pulleys, if possible. Just want to get an idea where all brackets go, etc. Also, in Alan's pic above, is that the stock pulley on the alternator? Mine just has a single groove and looks nothing like that.

Also, if I ran the belt the way a non-AC car does, it would go from crank pulley and around the water pump pulley and the alternator pulley. That is, unless it wouldn't fit around the alternator pulley due to alignment issues. If it does fit around the alternator, I can just adjust belt tension that way.

Sorry that is a high current Police alternator, most AC cars have the double pulleys on the alternator.


Alan

 

[70Tom]

I don't think that will work without the compressor.

The belt for the alternator now also drives the water pump. If you change the water pump pulley, the alternator would now have to be driven directly from the crank pulley. The geometry just doesn't work. The belt hits the water pump.

I've gone through this on my car.

One other thing, replace the used idler pulley if you are going to use one. The idler pulleys (in my experience) have a limited life span and you might as well replace it now rather than having it seize at a bad time.

I was worried about that.

So from what I'm reading, if I wanted to run the A/C water pump pulley, but in the same configuration as a non-AC car (waterpump to crank to alt pulley), the offset of the water pump pulley is going to be incorrect with the alternator pulley?

And if that's the case, Big John, will that double groove pulley alleviate that issue at the moment (if running the belts in a non-AC configuration)?

 

[70Tom]

Without A you will need the water pump pulley that has more offset. You will then eliminate the idler and use a single belt around the crank/water-pump/alternator.


Alan

I take it the pulley Big John posted above would alleviate this problem?

 

[Big_John]

I was worried about that.

So from what I'm reading, if I wanted to run the A/C water pump pulley, but in the same configuration as a non-AC car (waterpump to crank to alt pulley), the offset of the water pump pulley is going to be incorrect with the alternator pulley?

That is correct.

The stock water pump pulley will align with the first groove in your crank pulley. The alternator double pulleys align with the last two grooves. P/S with the second.

 

[Big_John]

I take it the pulley Big John posted above would alleviate this problem?

No, it's only going to work with the A/C compressor in place.

The second groove in that pulley aligns with the second groove on the crank pulley and the P/S pulley.

 

[70Tom]

No, it's only going to work with the A/C compressor in place.

The second groove in that pulley aligns with the second groove on the crank pulley and the P/S pulley.

So basically, it seems like I'm screwed unless I install the compressor or replace the water pump....

Any thoughts on what I should do? I several months away from being ready to attempt to get the A/C unit running, but I need to get this heating issue solved.

It looks like my only options are: change the pump, attempt to source a smaller diameter pulley that will line up in a non-AC configuration, or install the compressor and just not hook up the lines (seems like a bad idea).

 

[Big_John]

So basically, it seems like I'm screwed unless I install the compressor or replace the water pump....

Yes and no.

The 6 blade pump is the A/C pump and it should keep the car cooler (in theory).
But, yes, you aren't going to be able to change the pulleys to the A/C configuration without the A/C pump in place.

I don't really think this is your problem anyway.

Do you have a fan shroud? Is the fan clutch good?

I went through something similar with my car (70 300) and it was a matter of chipping away at various issues from previous owners. Mostly getting things back to where they should have been. My biggest improvement in cooling was installing a new fan clutch.

 

[70Tom]

Yes and no.

The 6 blade pump is the A/C pump and it should keep the car cooler (in theory).
But, yes, you aren't going to be able to change the pulleys to the A/C configuration without the A/C pump in place.

I don't really think this is your problem anyway.

Do you have a fan shroud? Is the fan clutch good?

I went through something similar with my car (70 300) and it was a matter of chipping away at various issues from previous owners. Mostly getting things back to where they should have been. My biggest improvement in cooling was installing a new fan clutch.

Fan shroud is correct for an A/C car. Just had the fan clutch replaced.

It seems like the 6-blade pump with the larger diameter pulley is the problem. With a larger diameter pulley, the pump isn't spinning fast enough. With fewer blades, it's pushing less coolant. Hence, why with a larger pulley, an 8-blade pump is used. Spinning slower, but more blades, pushes more coolant. Or at least that what I understood happens based on my research on the matter.

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. There's a lot of misinformation on the internet.

Thing is, my car runs fine when it's in the 70's or low 80's. Once the temps hit 90 here and I've run the car for a while, my temp starts hitting 200-210 depending on how bad traffic is and how long i'm sitting.

I planned on getting the system power flushed to make sure there's no crap in the block or the radiator whether I changed out the pulleys or not, so maybe I'll get that done this weekend if I can.

 

[MrMoparCHP]

The problem is not the diameter of the water pump pulley it is the offset. The non ac pulley is deeper than the ac moving the belt back to the rear most groove. The ac and non ac water pumps are essentially interchangeable (won't get into that discussion).

So you'd need the pulley that is more of a top hat than a beret to remove the ac compressor.


Alan