Timing marks?

[sixpkrt]

Is it possible the timing marks should be be top / top?
When disassembly on my 440 the marks were as mentioned above. When reassembly, I followed the book and set the timing at top / bottom.
Car will crank, it's getting fuel and spark but it is too far advanced. It backfires through the intake/carb.
Any thoughts on this?

 

[saylor]

if you are sure its not out of time, or slipping, set it manually at the diz to get it running and see what you got on timing.

please report back.

if it is out of time physically, please do not proceed further

try not to die -

- saylor

 

[saylor]

... one time, me and this dude helping me were up waay too late rebuilding a honda CRX engine, and he set the top half on 180* out and started snugging it down, we just noticed it at the critical moment before commencement...

try not to bend all your rods -

- saylor

 

[Davea Lux]

Is it possible the timing marks should be be top / top?
When disassembly on my 440 the marks were as mentioned above. When reassembly, I followed the book and set the timing at top / bottom.
Car will crank, it's getting fuel and spark but it is too far advanced. It backfires through the intake/carb.
Any thoughts on this?

You should start by putting the timing mark at TDC. Pull the valve cover for #1 cylinder bank and check that both valves are closed. If the exhaust valve is open, rotate the crankshaft until both valves are closed, you should them be back at TDC. Remember that the crank rotates twice for each rotation of the camshaft. Now that both valves are closed, check the position of the distributor rotor, it should be pointing at the connection for the #1 cylinder. If it is not, rotate the distributor until the rotor points at the connection for #1 cylinder. (Note you might have to remove the distributor and rotate the shaft to accomplish this. Especially if it was inadvertently installed 180 degrees out of time) Once you have the rotor pointing at #1, put it back together and the engine should now start. If you do not want to remove the distributor, you could also move the number one plug wire to which ever connector the rotor is pointing at. If you opt for this method, take care to maintain the proper firing order. Good Luck.

Dave

 

[sixpkrt]

I am wondering if CompCams have changed anything with the grinding on this cam: CRB XE250H-10.

 

[Davea Lux]

I am wondering if CompCams have changed anything with the grinding on this cam: CRB XE250H-10.

Lift and duration will be different than the stock cam, but that should not effect the base position of the timing.

 

[saylor]

ya davea knows what i mean about 180* out

its ungood

 

[sixpkrt]

You should start by putting the timing mark at TDC. Pull the valve cover for #1 cylinder bank and check that both valves are closed. If the exhaust valve is open, rotate the crankshaft until both valves are closed, you should them be back at TDC. Remember that the crank rotates twice for each rotation of the camshaft. Now that both valves are closed, check the position of the distributor rotor, it should be pointing at the connection for the #1 cylinder. If it is not, rotate the distributor until the rotor points at the connection for #1 cylinder. (Note you might have to remove the distributor and rotate the shaft to accomplish this. Especially if it was inadvertently installed 180 degrees out of time) Once you have the rotor pointing at #1, put it back together and the engine should now start. If you do not want to remove the distributor, you could also move the number one plug wire to which ever connector the rotor is pointing at. If you opt for this method, take care to maintain the proper firing order. Good Luck.

Dave

Yep. Did the steps of pulling the valve cover & #1 plug, and the rotor is pointing at #1. No problem there. Double checked all wires. Everything is wired correctly in sequence.
Besides my concerns of the grind on the cam, I have an electric fuel pump on the car. It has always worked fine, and I don't believe it's not working properly. However, when I turn the key to "on" the elec fuel pump is running and showing 6/7 fuel pressure on my after market gauge, but when the key is turned to "run" the fuel pressure drops to 0, and the engine will crank, but won't start.
When starting the car in the past, I would turn the ignition to "on", let the pump run for a few seconds, then turn the key the rest of the way to "run" position.
I honestly can't remember if the pump used to run when the engine was being cranked in the "run" position for starting before I disassembled the 440.

 

[Davea Lux]

Yep. Did the steps of pulling the valve cover & #1 plug, and the rotor is pointing at #1. No problem there. Double checked all wires. Everything is wired correctly in sequence.
Besides my concerns of the grind on the cam, I have an electric fuel pump on the car. It has always worked fine, and I don't believe it's not working properly. However, when I turn the key to "on" the elec fuel pump is running and showing 6/7 fuel pressure on my after market gauge, but when the key is turned to "run" the fuel pressure drops to 0, and the engine will crank, but won't start.
When starting the car in the past, I would turn the ignition to "on", let the pump run for a few seconds, then turn the key the rest of the way to "run" position.
I honestly can't remember if the pump used to run when the engine was being cranked in the "run" position for starting before I disassembled the 440.

Letting the pump run in the on position should prime the carb and have it run ready.
Some modern electric fuel pumps have a cut off switch that will kill the pump when a certain pressure or lack of flow is reached, but it sounds like the the pump is not wired correctly. It should operate in either the on or run position. If you are running a carb, there should be enough fuel in the carb to start the engine. Open the throttle linkage and see if fuel squirts from the accelerator pump ports as the throttle is opened. If so, you have fuel at the carb and the engine should start. If this is a solid lifter camshaft, check the valve lash, improperly adjusted intake valves will cause the engine to fire back thru the intake. You can also check this by running a compression check on each cylinder, if you have low compression on one or more cylinders, you probably have a valve lash problem.

 

[Davea Lux]

I am also assuming that you followed the cam manufacturer's instructions for lining up the marks on the timing gears.

 

[Davea Lux]

One other thing you might want to check. Distributor cap is wired in the proper sequence, is it wired for the proper rotation?

 

[saylor]

if you did the FP yourself and/or understand the wiring, you can jumper the relay and keep the FP running while you are goofing around in the driveway

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Engine on TDC, does not matter comp or exhaust, compression stroke wpould be better. Distributor gear slot should be almost parallel with the cam, then with the it on compression stroke put the dist. in with rotor pointing to #1 and then turn it a little clockwise and snug it.
Fuel pump your on your own, no reference to compare to.

In reference to your timing marks top, top is that it was on the top of the exhaust stroke on #1 cylinder.

Make sure your firing order is right on cap, a lot of times guys who know this stuff easily will rotate the firing order 180 degrees to make the wire lay out better(not cross each other) will mess you up if you compare to pictures/diagrams

 

[traintech55]

By chance when you replaced the timing gear set did you use a crank gear with multiple keyways? I have seen this many times.

 

[Zwap]

Is it possible the timing marks should be be top / top?
When disassembly on my 440 the marks were as mentioned above. When reassembly, I followed the book and set the timing at top / bottom.
Car will crank, it's getting fuel and spark but it is too far advanced. It backfires through the intake/carb.
Any thoughts on this?

Yes, timing marks is top / top when cylinder 1 is in fire position

 

[sixpkrt]

When it comes down to it, FCBO members have the most knowledge and give the best advice when a novice like me asks for help.
Turns out, it was 180 off. Got it started and had no issues after running it for 20 minutes at 2000 rpm.

 

[saylor]

noiiiiiice !

hey man we all have done it. once. thats how you learn what 180* out means

damn guys, well we just saved another motor, take 5. get fresh coffee. have a smoke.

- saylor

 

[Fratzog]

Congrats on getting to fire up. Forgot how nice your car looks!

 

[Haz]

Engine on TDC, does not matter comp or exhaust, compression stroke wpould be better. Distributor gear slot should be almost parallel with the cam, then with the it on compression stroke put the dist. in with rotor pointing to #1 and then turn it a little clockwise and snug it.
Fuel pump your on your own, no reference to compare to.

In reference to your timing marks top, top is that it was on the top of the exhaust stroke on #1 cylinder.

Make sure your firing order is right on cap, a lot of times guys who know this stuff easily will rotate the firing order 180 degrees to make the wire lay out better(not cross each other) will mess you up if you compare to pictures/diagrams

This answers my question regarding why my cap appears 120deg out of position and still runs. I need to bone up on geometry.... 180 degrees out. Thanks for that last comment