Water mist "injection" at the breather...good, bad or worthless idea?

Gerald Morris

Gerald Morris

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Driving daily in a normally hot, arid climate like Tucson, AZ, even after turning out my idle jets to enrich the fuel/air mixture, retarding the timing to -15 degrees BTDC, and purchasing 91 octane petrol when affordable, I'm oft plagued by knocks when accelerating, especially in the heat of the day.

By contrast, when it rains, Mathilda acts like Chuck Berry's "Maybelline" and I suspect for the same reason: a slight addition of water mist to the fuel/air mixture cools the air down, increasing initial density for better compression AND provides slight cooling of the combustion surfaces, eliminating hot spots and carbon deposits, both of which contribute to erratic combustion.

Is my theory worth testing in practice? Have any of my worthy Moparian Elders here ever implemented, or seen results from a water mist injection to the fuel/air stream? I would like some erudite discussion of this notion before I attempt it in practice please. I look forward to your enlightened contributions, as always.
 
Gerald Morris said:
Is my theory worth testing in practice? Have any of my worthy Moparian Elders here ever implemented, or seen results from a water mist injection to the fuel/air stream? I would like some erudite discussion of this notion before I attempt it in practice please. I look forward to your enlightened contributions, as always.
Click to expand...
Water injection has been around since the fifties if not earlier.
Magazines were always printing DIY articles.
First production car to use it was the turbocharged Olds Starfire in the sixties.
One or two modern cars have a water/alcohol injection system.
I think I tried it in the late 60's. Can't remember.
 
You're asking about a water/meth injection setup? If so I've seen plenty of them, but not on daily/street driven vehicles. It's an old technology. Actually, I think the Germans came up with it for their fighters in WWII. Anyway, there are kits out there. Maybe someone here has personal experience with a water/meth setup.
 
commando1 said:
Water injection has been around since the fifties if not earlier.
Magazines were always printing DIY articles.
First production car to use it was the turbocharged Olds Starfire in the sixties.
One or two modern cars have a water/alcohol injection system.
I think I tried it in the late 60's. Can't remember.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Yes, I was aware it had been used by American fighters during WW2. I'm not looking to add methanol to the mix, save if temperatures drop below freezing, but want to cool the combustion surfaces, cleanse them of carbon deposits, provide working mass for the power stroke and above ALL the other putative benefits, UNIFY THE COMBUSTION FRONT THUS STOPPING KNOCKS!

I've seen expensive (for me anyway!) kits on ePay which suggests its more than a fad. Think I'll cobble together something and report back when I've substantial results.
 
BigblueC said:
You're asking about a water/meth injection setup? If so I've seen plenty of them, but not on daily/street driven vehicles. It's an old technology. Actually, I think the Germans came up with it for their fighters in WWII. Anyway, there are kits out there. Maybe someone here has personal experience with a water/meth setup.
Click to expand...

No methanol for my rig, save as antifreeze. I just want to stop pinging.
 
Have you tried other more simple things like colder spark plugs, or even a "cold air" intake that sources air from outside of the engine compartment? Maybe something like the Ford Thunderbolt setup.
upload_2018-9-14_15-22-57.png
 
I have an
Edelbrock varijection
on the shelf. I was going to use it on the turbo engine but it has to be aimed at the compressor wheel nut, low pressure side. I bought a Snow system instead. The eddy system is cool, the controller allows you to set what vacuum it should come on and how hard. Has a nozzle meant to go on the carb and shoot into the 2 primaries
 
many studies have been done regarding water injection , first off it tense to stream clean the top of the piston and cylinder down passed the top ring , cleaning the oil lube from the ring and cylinder . and thats not good for ring , piston and cylinder life . it does do a bit of cooling for poor quality fuels pinging , but changing the time and curve can solve that issue .
 
i've been closing off the exhaust heat transfer from head to head under the afb carb in the intake . using an electric choke on my afb carb that and isolate the afb carb from heat transfer as well . under the afb carb is sheet metal spacers with gaskets sandwich , several to get it to work . my 383 has a lot of overlap in the cam , breaths hot gasses out the exhaust port into the headers . burns the paint off my headers in nothing flat and was cooking my spark plug booths as well . but no more . ceramic booths solved that issue .
DSC09262.JPG
 
thanks commando 1 , i'm glad there is some people that understand the power of stream cleaning . keep it on the outside of the engine . some guys have gone to window cleaner for the methanol it has to help with the cooling process . it still has water in it . back in the day we would put wood '' alky hall '' in the fuel tank with the gas to make a cooler burning fuel . it water based still . be not just straight water mint .
 
I tried one on my '68 Galaxie with a 390, back in 1982-83. I found no noticeable improvement in detonation, (pinging/knocking), engine temperature, performance or fuel mileage. Me and my car lived in South Florida at that time...always very humid except in October, which is a great time for anyone to visit, btw. I'm sure compared to today's kits, the 1982 version is crude. Maybe today's kits are micro-scienced to each individual engine, with micro-chipped sub-atomic atomizers and different kinds of sensors monitoring all environmental and engine load conditions............and if they are not this evolved then they are probably as useless as my 1982 kit. If they are such an advantage, why haven't they ever become a standard component of any car? Conversely, think about this, what do you think about adding water to hot engine oil; some of the water must make it into the crankcase and then gets circulated around to all your moving parts and engine bearings.., or water on your steel/aluminum pistons and inside of your fuel/carburation/injector/EFI systems..........and that water better be 110% pure H2o so as not to leave any of its own contaminants/build ups on your engine parts as it is supposedly removing other deposits. One last kick, and this is "for sure" in a diesel engine, I don't know about a gasoline engine (but I would gamble to say an fuel injected gasoline engine too)....Water in Diesel >>>water will vaporize to steam and rapidly expand (explode) inside of the injector nozzle, independently of the fuel detonation outside of the injector in the cylinder and blow the injector tip off and this not only kills that cylinder as far as diesel detonation and power, but that tip is also either ground up by the piston, and then the rings.., or it cracks the piston........anyway you slice it, you're screwed. You will notice very large Fuel Filters on diesel engines... most of the time two of them.., and maybe a water separator unit as well.
But I digress. Seems to me that if you've done everything you can think of with the timing and upgrading of octane, the only things left to try would be to soup up your cooling system, cool down your fuel, and take steps to reduce your cylinder compression. These are ONLY my ideas, and may be not what you want to hear....so, grain of salt. -Not Right, a proud graduate of Buckeye Union High School, class of '79. (Buckeye, Az.)
 
There are plenty of studies by ak Miller and herb (forget last name but wrote early foundational turbo book). About how water lowers bsfc so you can make more power at same fuel consumption
 
And those technicians may have very well been totally successful with their experimentation and actual application to vehicles. All I'm saying is that I spent the money for the kit, actually read and followed the directions on "How to Install" and got bupkis for my trouble. I can tell you this one other tid-bit...I can vividly remember riding in the passenger seat of my Dad's '68 Fury 318, from the time he bought it, every time we took off from a light or were accelerating onto the interstate, or when He jumped out into the oncoming lane to pass a butt-dragger......that car sounded like a popcorn machine! I don't know how many times he brought it back to the Dealer and then took it to other shops to try to get the knocking out of it. In the end, we just had to accept Patsy as she was and Dad would just say, "She's droppin her marbles all over the damn road again!" whenever she knocked and pinged. The rest of my ramblings about introducing water (in any form) into an engine are probably neither here nor there, because as we all know, I'm Not Right! See ya!
 
The Olds Jetfire (turbo 215 V-8, 1962 vintage) used their "Turbocharger Fluid" injection as it was still a 10.0 CR motor WITH a turbo, so that alky/water mixture was needed to cool the intake charge to decrease detonation. By comparison, the Corvair Spyder (turbo) used 8.0 CR and no need for "fluid".

Me wonders WHY the timing retard to -15 degrees BTDC? Retarding the timing that much is not good! Especially when earlier versions of the 383s had their normal timing set at 12.5 degrees BTDC, or 5 degrees BTDC in the earlier '70s.

There was a de-carbon trick that used a Coke bottle with water and atf, drizzled through the carb with the engine being revved enough to keep it from dying, as the mixture was administered via the carb. That was supposed to clean things out. Not to forget about the various "over-night soak" procedures and such.

First thing it so verify that the balancer has not slipped, rendering the timing mark "value-less".

Now, is what you're hearing "trace rattle" or is it really "detonation"? Trace rattle can be minimized with base timing or timing curve adjustments. Detonation will take more severe fixes.

ALL you're changing with the idle mixture adjustments is JUST the idle mixture. Once past about 1200rpm, then it's the main jets in the carb that are in play. It'll take slightly larger jets to affect that "main system" mixture.

The best way I discovered to de-carbon my '66 Newport, back then, was to drive it. Although it had seena normal 80K miles of DFW metro area freeway driving, when I started driving it to Lubbock and back on a regular basis, it seemed that each trip I made, the car ran a little better. 290 miles one way.

In more recent times, when I started using the Lucas Ethanol Treatment fuel additive (green stuff) in my lawnmower, rather than a sooty spark plug, the plug was clean. So that might be a way to get things cleaned up more quickly?

Are you sure you're not hearing that the rh rr (or other end bolt) exhaust manifold bolt has loosened about 1/4 turn? Just curious.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 
In some respects, those earlier water injection units were alleged to allow using regular rather than ethyl-grade fuels. Theory was that in cooler, more humid weather, cars seemed to run better than on hot, dry days. Therefore, trick it into thinking it was cool/humid with the water injection kit. Adding some methanol to the water would make the mixture cooler as the methanol would evaporate and cool the mixture more than just the water would.

When I might run across a vehicle with the water bottle on it, at the service station, the bottle usually was empty. We'd laugh about it doing good, when the bottle was empty. Saw some toilet paper oil filters, too!

CBODY67
 
BigblueC said:
Have you tried other more simple things like colder spark plugs, or even a "cold air" intake that sources air from outside of the engine compartment? Maybe something like the Ford Thunderbolt setup.View attachment 213171
Click to expand...

The cold air intake is what inspired me down this path. Here in sunny, arid Toostoned, swamp cooling works! So, how to get "cold air" into Tilly's carb? Nice to scoop it from up front, sure enough, but how "cold" is that air when the sun heats the asphalt here to near water boiling temperatures some days? Granted, its NOT boiling temp, but it isn't that cold either. Knowing first hand that the motor runs better during monsoon storms also put me onto the notion of adding a minuscule bit of atomized water into the fuel/air mix.

BUT, what will be the cost of such, both out of pocket and consequences to the motor. If its all rainbows, cool running, Peace, Love, forever, then more folks would be doing it, nicht wahr?

Yes, a cold air intake IS on my List of Possible Solutions, along with just buying premium petrol all the time and even adding Torco or such to every tank. But I like generating discussions like this ever so often too.

Thanks to all participants.
 
CBODY67 said:
In some respects, those earlier water injection units were alleged to allow using regular rather than ethyl-grade fuels. Theory was that in cooler, more humid weather, cars seemed to run better than on hot, dry days. Therefore, trick it into thinking it was cool/humid with the water injection kit. Adding some methanol to the water would make the mixture cooler as the methanol would evaporate and cool the mixture more than just the water would.

CBODY67
Click to expand...

That is EXACTLY the stuff which got me to finally pop this question on this forum. Yes, a bit of methanol will bring the evaporation/boiling point of the mixture down, by evaporating first, as it does when distilling it from water mixtures. Ethanol does same to lesser degree of course, and one can drink the mix if you blow up your engine too.

Wonder if Chuck ever had somebody add a water mist injector to any of his "Maybellines" after he got some $$$......?
 
CBODY67 said:
The Olds Jetfire (turbo 215 V-8, 1962 vintage) used their "Turbocharger Fluid" injection as it was still a 10.0 CR motor WITH a turbo, so that alky/water mixture was needed to cool the intake charge to decrease detonation. By comparison, the Corvair Spyder (turbo) used 8.0 CR and no need for "fluid".

Me wonders WHY the timing retard to -15 degrees BTDC? Retarding the timing that much is not good! Especially when earlier versions of the 383s had their normal timing set at 12.5 degrees BTDC, or 5 degrees BTDC in the earlier '70s.

There was a de-carbon trick that used a Coke bottle with water and atf, drizzled through the carb with the engine being revved enough to keep it from dying, as the mixture was administered via the carb. That was supposed to clean things out. Not to forget about the various "over-night soak" procedures and such.

First thing it so verify that the balancer has not slipped, rendering the timing mark "value-less".

Now, is what you're hearing "trace rattle" or is it really "detonation"? Trace rattle can be minimized with base timing or timing curve adjustments. Detonation will take more severe fixes.

ALL you're changing with the idle mixture adjustments is JUST the idle mixture. Once past about 1200rpm, then it's the main jets in the carb that are in play. It'll take slightly larger jets to affect that "main system" mixture.

The best way I discovered to de-carbon my '66 Newport, back then, was to drive it. Although it had seena normal 80K miles of DFW metro area freeway driving, when I started driving it to Lubbock and back on a regular basis, it seemed that each trip I made, the car ran a little better. 290 miles one way.

In more recent times, when I started using the Lucas Ethanol Treatment fuel additive (green stuff) in my lawnmower, rather than a sooty spark plug, the plug was clean. So that might be a way to get things cleaned up more quickly?

Are you sure you're not hearing that the rh rr (or other end bolt) exhaust manifold bolt has loosened about 1/4 turn? Just curious.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
Click to expand...

I had set the timing back to -15 degrees earlier this summer, and it silenced the ping on acceleration nicely with the old carb. I did retard it beyond the prescribed -12.5 degrees with some trepidation, and noted this evening the beyond -15 degrees a MARKED degradation in performance, so -15 degrees AT MOST is what I will run with. I will concede the possibility the balancer has slipped, but if so, not much I reckon.

I wouldn't call this detonation, but a trace rattle. Its pretty consistent right now. Once the motor temperature goes over 190 F AND the air temperature is above ~ 90 F then opening the throttle more than say, 2/3 suddenly to accelerate as in passing some oxcart or such produces that rattle. I don't like it, not at all and do what I can to rid that motor of it.

Obtaining and applying some Mopar B block timing tape to my damper is on the Soon 2 Do list.

So is plug reading. May sacrifice a puppy or a Chevyphile neighbor before taking that auspice.

Generally, Tilly is driving and stopping well enough now for a family road trip around Baja Arizona. That might blow out enough carbon. I don't get enough highway time for Mathilda and she complains accordingly. I plan to do it November, when we get some crisp cool days of only 85-90 F. I can re-jet the carb I just removed, along with rebuild it with the Hygrade kit bought for that purpose, but overall, I'm VERY happy with the replacement. No leaks, and the motor idles and accelerates from rest VERY smoothly, except for that trace rattle once things get a bit too warm.

I thought about and discarded the notion of running a 160 F thermostat for summer months too. I might try it as an experiment, but fear that if the motor runs TOO cool, I then WILL have serious carbon buildup.

Again, many thanks for worthy discussion. That's exactly what I wanted from this thread.
 
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