Water mist "injection" at the breather...good, bad or worthless idea?

[Turboomni]

I have run water /methanol injection in the past In my 86 Omni Glhs. It was injected at 100 psi into the pressurised intake tract just after the intercooler. It was not sophisticated and was triggered by an adjustable switch triggered by boost psi of your choice. I monitored the engine with a boost , egt guages and wideband O2 sensor and a light to tell me when the water injection was operating. I was running pump premium at 20 psi boost. It worked .I could have gone higher but didn't. Many of the Buick Grand Nationals were not intercooled and this was a popular way at the time to get alot more power . Problem of course if the water injection failed (no fluid,pump failure etc) your motor would blow. I have since stopped using water / meth injection and backed off psi and milder cam to keep it happy as it is still plenty fast. l have no experience with water injection on a NA car. I would think you would not want to rely on this to keep a stock engine happy because it's one more thing to keep tabs on. It's also possible for this system to mask a correctable problem which wouldn't sit well with me.

 

[Not Right]

I'm so Not Right as to be a Lefty. Long time condition of mine too. Since I hate seriously messing with something unless its seriously wrong, I most likely will just keep my damned lead foot off the gas pedal most of the time. THAT is the CHEAPEST workaround of ALL!

Pleased to meet another bloke who Ain't Right!

Si........

 

[Gerald Morris]

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

It WAS a TIMING ISSUE! Thanks to several Wiser Heads than mine for their hints. I moved the timing to 10 degrees BTDC and "PURRRRR!"

No pings, knocks, rattles or harder than 1 bump starts now!

I RE-READ my FSM, the 1966 Chrysler one, Chapter 8, p 38, column 2, Note 5 under IGNITION TIMING which reads as follows:

To wit, to RETARD the timing, I moved the distributor such that my timing went from 15 degrees BTDC to 10, and with that Cardone distributor and vacuum advance, the delta of 2.5 degrees from -12.5 as per the specs at the end of Chapter 8 for 2 barrel 383s, non-CAP, non-AC to -10 is quite reasonable, suggesting they designed their distributor to run just slightly hotter than the OEM one for 2 barrel B blocks of the mid 1960s.

I'm pleased to have given so many fine folks a topic worthy of their notice and discussion, and thank each and every one of you for your input.

 

[cantflip]

For future use...
Champion Spark Plugs Decoded
The combination of letters and numbers assigned for every Champion spark plug is a logical formula which indicates the major features of its design.

Let’s take a closer look:

[R] Resistor - If an R is present, this indicates a resistor type spark plug. Resistor type spark plugs reduce the amount of radio frequency interference (RFI) that can cause ignition misfires and static on the radio.

[V] Shell Design - This refers to the thread size and reach of the spark plug.

[15] Heat Range - The middle number indicates the heat range of the spark plug, the higher the number the hotter the heat range.

[YC] Firing End Design - The letters after the heat rating indicates a special spark plug construction feature called the firing end design. The letters refer to the center electrode material, projection dimension and ground material.

[4] Gap Designation - The number after the heat rating indicates the wide gap designation. Please note, the wide gaps are required to meet federal and California requirements.

FWIW, Champion is not the same company they used to be... they were bought out years ago. This has been puzzling to me; era correct catalogs specify J11Y plugs for my 1974, but current catalogs call for RJ14YC... The 11 heat range is gone from the catalog, but the 12 heat range is still available.

 

[Gerald Morris]

For future use...
Champion Spark Plugs Decoded
The combination of letters and numbers assigned for every Champion spark plug is a logical formula which indicates the major features of its design.

View attachment 213953
Let’s take a closer look:

[R] Resistor - If an R is present, this indicates a resistor type spark plug. Resistor type spark plugs reduce the amount of radio frequency interference (RFI) that can cause ignition misfires and static on the radio.

[V] Shell Design - This refers to the thread size and reach of the spark plug.

[15] Heat Range - The middle number indicates the heat range of the spark plug, the higher the number the hotter the heat range.

[YC] Firing End Design - The letters after the heat rating indicates a special spark plug construction feature called the firing end design. The letters refer to the center electrode material, projection dimension and ground material.

[4] Gap Designation - The number after the heat rating indicates the wide gap designation. Please note, the wide gaps are required to meet federal and California requirements.

FWIW, Champion is not the same company they used to be... they were bought out years ago. This has been puzzling to me; era correct catalogs specify J11Y plugs for my 1974, but current catalogs call for RJ14YC... The 11 heat range is gone from the catalog, but the 12 heat range is still available.

I'm thinking of getting th 12s. Rock carries 'em. The 66 FSM specs for a 2 barrel carbureted engine:

The 10s were meant for cop cars.

I've run both Autolite 85s and Champion RJ14YC in Mathilda prior to the AP85s currently installed. NOW, IFF I can get this 1 month old sprat in my lap to peacefully go back to her mommy, then I can pull a plug or 3 and read them!

Stay tuned.....

 

[moper]

Driving daily in a normally hot, arid climate like Tucson, AZ, even after turning out my idle jets to enrich the fuel/air mixture, retarding the timing to -15 degrees BTDC, and purchasing 91 octane petrol when affordable, I'm oft plagued by knocks when accelerating, especially in the heat of the day.

By contrast, when it rains, Mathilda acts like Chuck Berry's "Maybelline" and I suspect for the same reason: a slight addition of water mist to the fuel/air mixture cools the air down, increasing initial density for better compression AND provides slight cooling of the combustion surfaces, eliminating hot spots and carbon deposits, both of which contribute to erratic combustion.

Is my theory worth testing in practice? Have any of my worthy Moparian Elders here ever implemented, or seen results from a water mist injection to the fuel/air stream? I would like some erudite discussion of this notion before I attempt it in practice please. I look forward to your enlightened contributions, as always.

In reading this, it sounds more like a mechanical or tuning issue than something "mist" could fix.
First the timing curve. What you set at idle is called "initial timing". That will effect idle speed and quality and the other advances so it's important to get "right". But fuels and engine wear have changed the situation, so the stock settings will not be the best for you. Vacuum advance hose should be removed from the vacuum can and plugged for all this. As a base, set the initial at 12* Before TDC on compression stroke. Then, you will need to determine how much farther the distributor is advancing the timing, and at what rpm it occurs. Best thing is to get and install a $5 timing tape on the balancer. That simply extends the markings so they're easy to read. Then have a friend write down the readings as you slowly rev the engine and read the timing indicated on the tape. YOu will need to slowly increase the rpm from idle to 4000, giving readings every 500rpm. Then you can plot the mechancical advance curve and determine if you need to adjust it. You probably will... that's another long post but it's cheap to do if you need it to be.
Next, the carb adjustments. Always set timing first, then set the carb. The idle mixture screws are just that - at idle (throttle closed) they provide the fuel and air for the engine. Once your throttle is opened at all, they are no longer functioning and no adjustment to them will adjust anything. You will definitely need to tune the carburetor given the normal environmentals where you are. Especially the power enrichment circuits.
If you get those two dialed in and it's still pinging on high-test you should check for vacuum leaks around the carb base, power booster if equipped, and intake manifold to headflanges.

 

[Gerald Morris]

In reading this, it sounds more like a mechanical or tuning issue than something "mist" could fix.
First the timing curve. What you set at idle is called "initial timing". That will effect idle speed and quality and the other advances so it's important to
If you get those two dialed in and it's still pinging on high-test you should check for vacuum leaks around the carb base, power booster if equipped, and intake manifold to headflanges.

Your advice is appreciated, but I solved the problem. I moved timing up from 12.5 BTDC to 10 et AUDITE! NO ping, she starts on just a bump, idles SMOOTHLY as low as 450 rpm, (I moved it up to 600 for the alternator when running the pusher fan), the kickdown now works as intended.

Misting the fuel/air mixture was a desperation measure, hit upon from noting how the ping only started in hot, thin air during the day. I consulted the FSM, and again, obtained the guidance needed.

 

[moper]

Cool. I'd suggest though, my comments may still apply given the changes in fuels and wear on the engine. You might be leaving power and efficiency on the table by not optimizing the timing curve and carb to match modern changes.