Sense and nonsense of fender tags

[69CoronetRT]

There you have it: another 1977 Belvidere car with this 1977-only code in the third line from the bottom, in this case "111", just popped up on Ebay:

View attachment 275331
View attachment 275332

All in all, I now have four tags with this code:

PM41J7D111970:
23
END
G11 G53 H51 N21 N88 S61
EW1 V1F U 111 K5X G??
EW1 R2F6 MF6 816 077348
E56 D36 PM41 J7D 111970

PM41J7D134539:
17
H51 N21 END
PB3 U 111 K5X G11
PB3 P1B3 PB4 A01 076113
E56 D36 PM41 J7D 134539

PK41T7D248027:
21
N96 END
F43 F58 F72 G11 H51 N21
EW1 U 111 Y39 F36
EW1 A1B3 PB4 520 K37160
E85 D36 PK41 T7D 248027

PK41T7D248188:
216
H51 N21 N96 END
F37 F43 F49 F58 F72 G11
EW1 U 111 Y39 F36
EW1 99Y3 KY4 620 K3735?
E85 D36 PK41 T7D 248188

Now what do these four cars have in common, apart from the "111"?

P*41.
Could this be a number related to body in white like the Gate/base number on a Lynch Road tag?
Does this number appear on tags from Dodges? On other body configurations?
Or does it only appear with P*41 cars?

 

[PeugFra]

On my two lone Dodge tags I get "100", just like on my two Town & Country tags. So yes, "111" appears only on the four P*41 tags listed above.

Here's a complete run down:

000: PK41
100: DH23, DH46, CP45, CP46
101: PK41
111: PM41 (2x), PK41 (2x)
222: PH41, PK41 (4x)

P*41 appears with any code, apart from "100".

The PK41 with "000" was for Canada, the others went to the US market. IF "000" has no meaning, whereas the other combinations do, those codes express something relevant to the US market only.

 

[PeugFra]

Looking again at the four tags above, here's my take on "111":

They all share N21 Air Pump, an emissions device for N95 California Emissions and N96 High Altitude Emissions cars. In fact, two tags have N96, and the other two have the 360-4 engine, an engine specified for N95/N96 cars only. One of these was sold new in Anaheim, CA. Funny enough, N95 does not appear on its fender tag, however:

PM41J7D111970:
23
END
G11 G53 H51 N21 N88 S61
EW1 V1F U 111 K5X G01
EW1 R2F6 MF6 816 077348
E56 D36 PM41 J7D 111970

PM41J7D134539:
17
H51 N21 END
PB3 U 111 K5X G11
PB3 P1B3 PB4 A01 076113
E56 D36 PM41 J7D 134539

PK41T7D248027:
21
N96 END
F43 F58 F72 G11 H51 N21
EW1 U 111 Y39 F36
EW1 A1B3 PB4 520 K37160
E85 D36 PK41 T7D 248027

PK41T7D248188:
216
H51 N21 N96 END
F37 F43 F49 F58 F72 G11
EW1 U 111 Y39 F36
EW1 99Y3 KY4 620 K3735?
E85 D36 PK41 T7D 248188

The other 11 Belvidere tags do not have N21.

Could it be that our 3-digit code wants to say something about emissions?

 

[69CoronetRT]

Looking again at the four tags above, here's my take on "111":

They all share N21 Air Pump, an emissions device for N95 California Emissions and N96 High Altitude Emissions cars. In fact, two tags have N96, and the other two have the 360-4 engine, an engine specified for N95/N96 cars only. One of these was sold new in Anaheim, CA. Funny enough, N95 does not appear on its fender tag, however:

PM41J7D111970:
23
END
G11 G53 H51 N21 N88 S61
EW1 V1F U 111 K5X G01
EW1 R2F6 MF6 816 077348
E56 D36 PM41 J7D 111970

PM41J7D134539:
17
H51 N21 END
PB3 U 111 K5X G11
PB3 P1B3 PB4 A01 076113
E56 D36 PM41 J7D 134539

PK41T7D248027:
21
N96 END
F43 F58 F72 G11 H51 N21
EW1 U 111 Y39 F36
EW1 A1B3 PB4 520 K37160
E85 D36 PK41 T7D 248027

PK41T7D248188:
216
H51 N21 N96 END
F37 F43 F49 F58 F72 G11
EW1 U 111 Y39 F36
EW1 99Y3 KY4 620 K3735?
E85 D36 PK41 T7D 248188

The other 11 Belvidere tags do not have N21.

Could it be that our 3-digit code wants to say something about emissions?

Typically codes on a tag are related to BIW, trim, paint and holes punched.

Does that emissions package require a modification to the BIW I.e. different floor pan panel? Different exhaust hangers, and therefore holes, of some sort?
Some sort of shield over a catalytic converter?

 

[PeugFra]

For this the technically versed members have to chime in. I'm not that good at reading engine drawings.

I guess the main catalytic converter had a heat shield and that the same goes for the N95/N96 mini converter placed closer to the exhaust manifold. The N95/N96 air pump was bolted directly to the engine block, as far as I can see. The Lean-Burn box was mounted on the air cleaner. N96 carburetor calibration and spark-control modification are invisible by their nature.

So some components of the various emissions systems needed mounts on the chassis, others did not. The specific emissions control package is mostly mentioned on the 1977 fender tags I have seen (N92, N93, N94, N96).

I would say that by 1977 Body-In-White preparation, Trim and Paint was not the only information conveyed by the fender tag.

 

[69CoronetRT]

I would say that by 1977 Body-In-White preparation, Trim and Paint was not the only information conveyed by the fender tag.

Based on?
Why? What evidence exists indicating a change in the function of the tag?

 

[PeugFra]

My exhibition of technical knowledge stems from a booklet called 1977 Chrysler Engineering.

The difference between N95 and N96 consists of carburetor calibration and spark-control modification, as far as I can see. Yet N96 appears on fender tags, whereas N95 does not where one would expect it (the 360-4 equipped cars).

I have to admit that only for codes N95 and N96 the meaning is clear beyond any doubt. For N92, N93 and N94 I found no 1977-related documentation. I am working by the assumption that N92 and N94 mean Federal Emissions, with some kind of technical difference between the two, and that N93 stands for Canada and Export Emissions.

 

[PeugFra]

N95/N96 shared a full set of emissions control devices:

360-4 (J): w/ cat, no ELB, w/ air pump, w/ mini-converter
440-4 (T): w/ cat, w/ ELB, w/ air pump, w/ mini-converter

Under the hypothesis that "111" on N95/N96 cars is somehow related to this set of devices, the "000" on the Canadian car, an ex-RCMP car, makes sense as well:

PK41K7D179599:
S41 Y14 Y16 231 END
F43 F58 G01 N41 N93 P4?
V09 C 000 Y39 F38
V09 A1B3 999 106 B34195
E57 D36 PK41 K7D 179599

(It is a puzzling tag anyway, because it combines Y14 Sold Car with Y16 Sales Bank.)

Canadian emissions regulation was not compatible with any of the US standards. The specs on Canadian cars are:

360-2 (K): no cat, no ELB, no air pump, no mini-converter
400-4 (N): no cat, w/ ELB, no air pump, no mini-converter
440-4 (T): no cat, w/ ELB, no air pump, no mini-converter

This could be the reason why the Canadian tag has "000" in the third line from the bottom. The meaning would be "Not Applicable", like the 000 code for the upper door frame color on hardtops, or "None of the Relevant Emissions Devices".

More tags from Canadian cars will confirm or reject this. Also a US tag for a 360-2 engined car would help.

 

[PeugFra]

Does that emissions package require a modification to the BIW I.e. different floor pan panel? Different exhaust hangers, and therefore holes, of some sort?
Some sort of shield over a catalytic converter?

At least the N93 emissions package in Canadian cars required no modifications to the Body-In-White.

That brings me to N88 Automatic Speed Control. Isn't that bolted to the engine assembly as well? Does it require some hole in the fire wall maybe?

 

[LocuMob]

The PK41 with "000" was for Canada, the others went to the US market. IF "000" has no meaning, whereas the other combinations do, those codes express something relevant to the US market only.

Not sure how relevant it is, but I noticed the "000" code on this Dusters tag. My Mopar.com lists the code as Full Door Panels.

 

[PeugFra]

I suspect the meaning "Full Door Panels" was relevant in a situation where on some models the door panels were not full and didn't rise right up to the window, leaving a strip of bare metal to be painted. Hence a code slot for "Upper Door Frame Color". That slot contains a color code or, in the case of full door panels, "000".

All C-body Formals have full door panels and on their tags "000" only appears on hardtops with frameless door windows, whereas sedans and wagons have a color code. So in this context "000" rather means "Not Applicable".

I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the use of this slot on 1974-78 A- and B-bodies, so I'm not sure what "000" means on this 1975 Duster.

 

[PeugFra]

That brings me to N88 Automatic Speed Control. ... Does it require some hole in the fire wall maybe?

Over in another thread somebody kindly posted a picture of the 1969 automatic speed control set-up:

I'm concentrating on the area within the red "circle". Could it be that is the spot were the firewall needs an extra hole, presumably for the vacuum hose leading to the speed control servo unit? Or is it more a bracket thing?

 

[PeugFra]

As opposed to "000" for the Canadian 360-2 engined car, a fender tag for a similarly equipped US car that just popped up on Ebay has "100". Alas, the particular tag does not contain an emissions package code, but the California and High Altitudes emissions packages can be excluded, as the 360-2 was not allowed there. So it must have a Federal emissions package.

"100" also appears on three tags with N94 as their emissions package, for US cars having 400-4 N-code and 440-4 T-code engines installed. A list of the emissions devices installed on these engines goes:

360-2 (K): w/ cat, no ELB, no air pump, no mini-converter
400-4 (N): w/ cat, w/ ELB, no air pump, no mini-converter
440-4 (T): w/ cat, w/ ELB, no air pump, no mini-converter

Apart from the presence or absence of ELB, these engines share the same emissions devices.

So to make my hypothesis work, the 3-digit code should ignore ELB. Once you accept this, we now have explanations for "111" (California/High Altitudes), "000" (Canada) and "100" (Federal).

 

[Fury Pursuit]

Do you have a Broadcast Sheet for any of the cars you are referring to?

What you may have realized is that the codes on the fender tag you are referring to are the engine code/codes for the specific application to the specific car/cars in question.

Which is a known number/code, nothing new.

Additionally, these codes are sometimes (depending on the plant) written on the passengers side valve cover and the corresponding transmission code is on the drivers side.

 

[69CoronetRT]

Do you have a Broadcast Sheet for any of the cars you are referring to?

What you may have realized is that the codes on the fender tag you are referring to are the engine code/codes for the specific application to the specific car/cars in question.

Which is a known number/code, nothing new.

Additionally, these codes are sometimes (depending on the plant) written on the passengers side valve cover and the corresponding transmission code is on the drivers side.

Those numbers are not engine assembly codes.

 

[Fury Pursuit]

My bad. I didn't read the posts in enough detail.

I'd still like to see a Broadcast sheet for the cars in question for any correlation.

 

[LocuMob]

I came across another vehicle that had the "000" code on the fender tag, a B body I think. Is there any link/connection between the different bodys and the code? The online decoder won't tell anything different than on the Duster (full door panels, which may or may not be accurate), so how do you figure this out?

 

[PeugFra]

... so how do you figure this out?

By looking at C-body fender tags and relating them to the particular situation in which they are used. As situations can differ or change, so can usage.

The slot for Upper Door Frame Color (1977 and later: Interior Paint) was introduced on 1971 fender tags. Initially, only 2-door hardtops got "000", other body styles show a color code there. As of 1974, also 4-door hardtops get "000". From 1977 on, East Jefferson tags leave this slot empty: the space is there on the fender tag, but no code is stamped. At that point, East Jefferson was producing only hardtops, as the 1977 Newport 4-door sedans were farmed out to Belvidere.

I admit that I am having some trouble explaining the 1971-1973 situation, but from 1974 on the use, and therefore meaning, of "000" is clear on C-body tags: frameless door window body styles as opposed to non-frameless door window body styles. In this situation "000" does not mean "Full Door Panels" anymore, because non-frameless door window body styles also have full door panels. "000" rather means "Not Applicable" as there is nothing to paint on hardtop doors. As from 1977 the 4-door sedans disappeared from the East Jefferson work floor, not even that needed to be stated, as there was no body style left the hardtops had to be kept apart from.

I am concentrating on Formal C-body fender tags, as the existing online decoders are clearly not built around them.

 

[LocuMob]

Here's the tag I mentioned before, a 1973 Newport two door hardtop. Has the "000" code.

 

[1978 NYB]

Here's the tag I mentioned before, a 1973 Newport two door hardtop. Has the "000" code.

View attachment 280467

Might be the least optioned car I have ever seen.