New waterpump...recommendations ??

[luigi164]

Hello all,
I'm in need of a new waterpump. I see them listed everywhere from $40 to $240..
What would be a "good" one ? and ofcourse for a reasonable price..
Good or bad experiences ?

I was thinking of this one:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=948693&cc=1066317&jsn=719&jsn=719

And might as well replace the clutch-fan with the Hayden 2747 or 2797

Good choise ?

Luigi

 

[Mopar Madness]

Thats what Im run in my Fury. Mid of the road pump have had no problems.

 

[Davea Lux]

Mainly want to avoid the cheap rebuilds (Cardone!) and any pump made in China, poor quality. As far as I know the Gates pumps are still made here and I have had good luck with them in the past. TRW also makes good pumps.

If your clutch fan is still working, there is not any good reason to replace it, you want to avoid "parts changing" because some of the replacement clutch fans are poor quality and do not last. Test the function of the clutch fan by letting the engine warm up fully. When you shut the engine off, the fan blades should stop with the engine. If the fan blades free wheel, the clutch assembly is shot and needs to be replaced. Again, try to stay with a quality, domestically made unit.

Dave

 

[CBODY67]

I'll concur that a good quality water pump is all that's needed. NO need for anything NOS or similar, just a good stock replacement pump. The a/c pump is listed as a performance upgrade (with its fewer vanes), but the pulley drive ratio also changed to turn it faster. So get the one the catalog calls for for your vehicle.

On the fan clutches, there are only about TWO sources of decent quality fan clutches any more. As to what's "good" or "worn", it's somewhat normal for the fan to continue turning a little bit after the engine stops. Just part of the fluid "coupling" in the clutch not being a hard, mechanical linkage. I'd be more concerned with it starting to turn when the engine turns over AND having minimal "play" when you rock the fan front to back. If what you have is still good, no real need to change it. If you do get a new one, be sure to get the "thermal" version (with the thermostat spring on the front) as it "kicks in" when needed and freewheels otherwise.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[Yatzee]

Hello all,
I'm in need of a new waterpump. I see them listed everywhere from $40 to $240..
What would be a "good" one ? and ofcourse for a reasonable price..
Good or bad experiences ?

I was thinking of this one:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=948693&cc=1066317&jsn=719&jsn=719

And might as well replace the clutch-fan with the Hayden 2747 or 2797

Good choise ?

Luigi

The real problem with water pumps these days is that you never know what's good until you install and run them. Even prominent companies have their rebuilt units done everywhere, mostly China. I think you should look at a pump that states it's characteristics completely ie: impeller type and design, bearings used and weather the pump is anti-cavitation. These are the reasons for such a wide price spread. Remember, all pumps are not created equal, that's why there's a difference in the impeller design for an A/C car and non-A/C. If you know the current one is original then match it. If you're running a clutch fan pay particular attention to the bearing type of the pump because it has to support more than a pulley and belt. When you're online looking at higher priced pumps, pay attention to the reviews and if certain faults keep repeating. A good example of what you'd expect to pay for a quality pump would be a FlowKooler 1679 for $118. That's a little over double the cost for you're clutch fan - both from Summit. I say "Do it right, do it once".

 

[Davea Lux]

The real problem with water pumps these days is that you never know what's good until you install and run them. Even prominent companies have their rebuilt units done everywhere, mostly China. I think you should look at a pump that states it's characteristics completely ie: impeller type and design, bearings used and weather the pump is anti-cavitation. These are the reasons for such a wide price spread. Remember, all pumps are not created equal, that's why there's a difference in the impeller design for an A/C car and non-A/C. If you know the current one is original then match it. If you're running a clutch fan pay particular attention to the bearing type of the pump because it has to support more than a pulley and belt. When you're online looking at higher priced pumps, pay attention to the reviews and if certain faults keep repeating. A good example of what you'd expect to pay for a quality pump would be a FlowKooler 1679 for $118. That's a little over double the cost for you're clutch fan - both from Summit. I say "Do it right, do it once".

Most of the time, an A/C equipped big block car will have a clutch fan unit from '68 on. A few of the 2BBL 383 cars did not. The A/C cars with the clutch fan usually also have a different sized fan pulley that the non A/C cars. It is important to keep the pump mated to the clutch fan and the pulley size. Most of the cavitation problems at higher RPMs occur due to mismatched components.

Dave

 

[CBODY67]

Matching what you've got is a good orientation. Unfortunately, kind of hard to do when you're "remote" from the closest auto supply for USA-brand vehicles. In your case, I'd get the best name brand pump I could and not worry about it. IF you were in the USA, then going down to the local auto supply with your existing pump (to look at what they had to best-match it would be best.

Over the years, I've seen various impeller styles and as long as they moved the water, one worked as good as the other, typically. "Cavitation" is usually not a real issue as long as there's sufficient coolant in the system. From what I've seen, others might have different perspectives, but the quality of the water flow into the pump is a design issue of the pump housing and the water passages in the block/heads. Over the decades of replacing water pumps on various cars I've owned, the main thing is to get a pump with a "factory casting" rather than a casting the rebuilder/reman/vendor claims is better. The ONE time I bought a pump with a "better looking water passage in it" worked well, but the temp gauge ran 1 needle-width hotter than the allegedly inferior stock pump did (it wasn't a Chrysler V-8).

So, make your best decision, looking at the particular warranty on the part, how to exercise it if needed, and go from there.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[70bigblockdodge]

I would not get a anti-cavitation pump for a stock low revving engine. They use a disc on the vanes to essentially slow the coolant flow by eliminating the low pressure area on the shaft side. I can see how this helps at high rpm. Unless you are putting 3.91 or 4.10 rear gears in your car you may be creating a problem. Cavitation is caused by steam forming in low pressure area in the center of the pump, and the temperature of the coolant being above the boiling point at that pressure. A good working radiator cap is a must to keep boiling/cavitation at bay. The paddle wheel impeller of the stock pump may not be ideal but seems to work quite well at lower rpm. A flowcooler pump should work similarly to the anti-cavitation pump but has more vanes and a seemingly smoother flow design to move more coolant at all rpm, kind of refining the crudeness of a big block water pump design.
Basically it comes down to quality. The pump in my Charger came from rock auto, brand I'm not sure of, not a reman pump. Not quite a year in the car and not leaking and circulating coolant as it should. I do have a new noise in the front of the engine but with all the used parts I put on the car it could be anything. I had a brand new Bosch pump fail after 6 months, back in 2008. The bearings squealed very loudly in that one for a couple of minutes while running at around 2000+ rpm for cam break in.

 

[Rapidtrans777]

Check out this thread. It's long but informative.
Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !

 

[Gerald Morris]

I use the Gates pump, which looks VERY much like the original high volume pump Mopar designed in the late 1960s for AC equipped cars. I also plan to put my Gates pump into a nice cast iron Mopar housing after having run it in an aluminum housing for the past year with less than optimal results. I plan to switch this out this coming Wednesday, after my new Cold Case radiator arrives, which I will install at the same time. I read the article linked to above and that possibility; that the aluminum housing may have sub-optimal return ports restricting flow is enough to compel me to go back to iron.

I will post my own thread on all this when I do the job soon. Cold Case is cutting me a generous discount for doing so. Y'all can learn from my pain if there is any. I pray there isn't....

 

[CBODY67]

It's been my suspicion that the aluminum pump housing was more to save weight than make things work better. Which can be important in the racing orientations/uses.

Almost all water pump designs are pretty similar in design orientation. The actual components might be done differently, but the basic functions remain the same. It all depends upon a good, stable flow of coolant into the pump and heat exchanger items for things to work well. At the rpm levels a typical C-body would turn (with 2.76/3.23 gearing and taller tires), cavitatioin should NOT be an issue, I suspect. 25mph/1000rpm with 3.23, 28.66mph/1000 with 2.76, typically. Torque curve peak in the 75-90mph range. Cavitation at those rpm levels would point to something majorly wrong in the cooling system.

One point is that the factory engineers and accountants compromised on designs that would work well for the vast majority of customers. For those that needed something else, there were the factory trailer-tow packages or police package items. Sometimes, in trying to second-guess their actions, we make more problems in the process . . . sometimes not for specific niche applications. In some cases, having a correctly-optioned vehicle is more important than in others. Just getting "factory air" resulted in many equipment upgrades from the "base vehicle". Bigger radiators, fan clutches, fan shrouds, water pump, HD front torsion bars, etc. NOT the same as "adding to" a base vehicle and hoping for the same good results, in the aftermarket.

As things have evolved since the time our cars were designed, there have been some items which are now OEM that can be good upgrades. The aluminum or composite radiators (usually with greater fin counts) is one. Long-life coolants might be good, if you're starting with a completely "new" system (rebuilt/hot tanked motor, new radiator, new heater core, and new hoses). Maintaining the correct freeze protection is necessary, no matter what.

I found a BASF handout back in the 1980s. It spelled out that you changed antifreeze as the additive package wore out. The additive package had the task of keeping the ethylene glycol from eating the solder in the radiator and heater core. When the additive package was depleted, then the attack on the solder began. So change it before that happens. Modern systems have gaskets rather than lead-based solder.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[luigi164]

Thank you all for your advice and recommendations...
Decided to go for the Gates pump and the Hayden 2747.
Reason for replacement is that the Newport runs too hot in my opinion (220 F sometimes)
Also I don't see any flow of coolant with the rad cap of. Radiator and engine are clean, thermostat is new
I have reasons to believe that she still has the original pump and clutch from the factory so replacement wouldn't hurt. Parts are ordered and I will report the results when installed..

 

[Gerald Morris]

Thank you all for your advice and recommendations...
Decided to go for the Gates pump and the Hayden 2747.
Reason for replacement is that the Newport runs too hot in my opinion (220 F sometimes)
Also I don't see any flow of coolant with the rad cap of. Radiator and engine are clean, thermostat is new
I have reasons to believe that she still has the original pump and clutch from the factory so replacement wouldn't hurt. Parts are ordered and I will report the results when installed..

I'll likely go w a Hayden 2797 later this summer, after my other cooling system issues are done. For now I'm using a 6 blade straight 18" fan. The Gates pump is a winner.

 

[ayilar]

--> @Gerald Morris and @luigi164 -- any updates?

As preventative maintenance for Medina (my T-code '71 Monaco), I was thinking of getting either a Milodon 16260 or a Flowkooler. At the same time, I would get a Robert Shaw high-flow thermostat (hesitating between the 370-160 as recommended here by @Big_John, and the 330-180 as recommended here by @CBODY67).

I have read good opinions regarding the Milodon pump from @70bigblockdodge and on another board, but I have not yet found any reviews of (or comparisons with) the Flowkooler pump (I do have many positive reviews of the Robert Shaw thermostats the folks at FK recommend, such as this one by @Davea Lux and others by @CBODY67).

--> Comments/thoughts?

 

[Gerald Morris]

--> @Gerald Morris and @luigi164 -- any updates?

As preventative maintenance for Medina (my T-code '71 Monaco), I was thinking of getting either a Milodon 16260 or a Flowkooler. At the same time, I would get a Robert Shaw high-flow thermostat (hesitating between the 370-160 as recommended here by @Big_John, and the 330-180 as recommended here by @CBODY67).

I have read good opinions regarding the Milodon pump from @70bigblockdodge and on another board, but I have not yet found any reviews of (or comparisons with) the Flowkooler pump (I do have many positive reviews of the Robert Shaw thermostats the folks at FK recommend, such as this one by @Davea Lux and others by @CBODY67).

--> Comments/thoughts?

I wound up using a Hayden 2747 clutch w my Gates pump AND an electric pusher fan in front of my Cold Case radiator. Mathilda hasn't once exceeded 200 F while running this summer. These cheap electric fans have become well worth getting for intermediate use supplementing a decent mechanical clutch fan. I use a toggle switch to control mine, though one can rely on temperature switches to ground a relay coil and kick the fan on thus. That's the stock configuration for them.

 

[Mike66Chryslers]

I would not get a anti-cavitation pump for a stock low revving engine. They use a disc on the vanes to essentially slow the coolant flow by eliminating the low pressure area on the shaft side. I can see how this helps at high rpm. Unless you are putting 3.91 or 4.10 rear gears in your car you may be creating a problem. Cavitation is caused by steam forming in low pressure area in the center of the pump, and the temperature of the coolant being above the boiling point at that pressure.

The cavitation problem would be caused by shear applied to the fluid between the moving pump vanes and the stationary housing. The shear forces would cause a low-pressure region in the boundary layer which would cause steam bubbles to form, and would be worse as RPM increases as you say. However, the anti-cavitation plate should not slow the coolant flow and I don't believe there is a downside to having one.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

However, the anti-cavitation plate should not slow the coolant flow and I don't believe there is a downside to having one

Yes, I guess I got focused on high RPM and cavitation.

 

[luigi164]

--> @Gerald Morris and @luigi164 -- any updates?

Sorry for the late update but the answer is in another thread :
Replacing waterpump...tips & tricks ?

 

[ayilar]

On the fan clutches, there are only about TWO sources of decent quality fan clutches any more. (...) If you do get a new one, be sure to get the "thermal" version (with the thermostat spring on the front) as it "kicks in" when needed and freewheels otherwise.

And those two are?

 

[thethee]

And those two are?

Believe one of them is Hayden