Air Cleaner discussion

Dsertdog

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I'm sure this may have been covered before but...

I believe that the single snorkle air cleaner housing is very restrictive on a 383 with a Carter AFB. So that would be 65-66
I don't believe the dual snorkle is much better. Those tubes are just too small.

I see a number of people running the chrome 14 inch air cleaner assemblies. I would run one then put my stock assembly on for display.

Any thoughts?
 
If you are going to travel down this road get the largest diameter and tallest aftermarket air cleaner that fit under your hood.

Too often people buy these 2" tall chrome air cleaners that don't flow enough air IMHO.
 
An "Unsilenced" aircleaner from a 68 B body (I think that's correct) would flow more air if you want a stockish looking deal. I run an open element air filter cause that's what I had back when. I have two dual snorkel housings for '66 models, and have the dual snorkel sitting in the trunk of the '68. I haven't done anything with them, Soni guess I got them for looks instead of performance.
 
FWIW, the 325hp 383s and 360hp 413s of 63-65 use a small-dia filter (10") that is the same as used on a 318 2-barrel, with only a small gap around the OD of the air cleaner to let air in. Did the engineers choke it? I kinda doubt they would allow that, esp considering such a larger filter used on the 361 2-barrels.

That 63-65 unsilenced was also used on some Slant 6 engines of the early-mid 60s, all you need then is a certain 4-barrel aftermarket baseplate and you can use that aircleaner top. I found a chrome baseplate on Summit years ago that worked although it sits a little taller, the baseplate doesn't have enough drop.

There used to be an adapter ring that would allow a 5-1/8" air cleaner to fit on the smaller-size AFB carb. Get one of those and you can run any aircleaner that will fit under hood.

You could also drill some large holes at the firewall area of your aircleaner, or around the bottom plate, too (those would be invisible).
 
Unless you have significantly built the 383, you probably will not see a big jump in performance going to a different air cleaner. You will make a bunch more air noise if that is you intent. Giving the engine more available air surely will not hurt any thing but the 1.60" valves and stock exhaust can only breath so much. More air and fuel in still has to get out some how.

Dave
 
The best thing you can do for your engine’s breathing is a CLEAN filter. Don’t laugh I’ve know guys who run pos New Old Stock (but old as hell) filters instead of new because they’re OEM correct. That’s fine on a parked car but bad for any type of driving. Air Filters are strange critters, working for CAT I can tell you a new filter flows the best but a dirty filter works the best. If you look at it from the filter makers point of view all they care about is protecting the engine first but with the least restriction possible. A new filter’s media can only catch so much crud but when it’s used for a while that same filth actually creates a better filter that catches more crud by filling in the microscopic gaps. This cleans the incoming air better and better until the restriction warrants replacement. That’s straight from the CAT filter bible and we make the best filters in the industry. Don’t even get me started on blowing out dirty filters. Do that at your own peril. Sonic cleaning works but it’s a dying art.

Anyone who’s ever bought some slobs derelict car knows this is true. Change the nasty old air filter and wow I gotta turn down the idle. I wonder why ???
 
In some of the filter catalogs that I've seen, there are cfm ratings of the various filter elements. Not sure of the filter housing they use to do these tests on, but most of the larger filter elements will not come close to the cfm ratings of the carbs they sit on top of! Like a 300cfm element on top of a 650cfm carb, for example. And it gets worse with the smaller air filter elements!

In general, I feel the Chrysler filter housings of the middle '60s and such were more efficient than the ones which GM divisions used, with their long and small snorkles, for example. Most of the Chrysler housings had the flow directors to spread the air around the housing, rather than it dumping directly into the filter element in a 2" diameter place.

On those GM/Chevy filter housings, THAT's where the "flip the top" action started. More noise but also more acceleration at WOT, as a result. Even with the smaller and shorter A329C filter element, vs the taller element of the same diameter.

By comparison, the Fram CA127 filter element that fits almost ALL Chrysler product B/RB engines, 2bbl and 4bbl, up to about the 1968 model year, is taller and larger diameter.

The REAL Corvette OEM open element air cleaner is the highest flow filter case that was ever used, according to tests back in the '70s. It sits ONE inch lower than the more common knock-offs that are sold everywhere, with the simply-stamped lower plate (of thinner metal than the OEM item). But it's also designed around the Holley 3310 4bbl that was OEM on the big block Chevy V-8 that the filter came on from the factory. The knock-offs probably work as well, I suspect.

To me, the C-body air filter top with the "Road Runner" base is better than even the Road Runner air cleaner as there is MORE distance between the outer edge of the top and the filter element itself. Just need the "Holley"/larger mounting hole carb to go with it.

As allegedly "bad" as the air flow through the factory dual snorkel on my '70 Monaco "N" motor, it still knew what the "triple digits" on the speedometer were for and did not hesitate to put the speedo needle in that range at WOT, with the stock 3.23 and HR78-15 radials (25mph/1000rpm). So, don't obsess too much about "numbers" as long as things work well in stock configuration. By observation, Chrysler was pretty good at using "what works" rather than what looks good.

Back in the '80s, Holley came out with a "throttle body stuffer" that smoothed the air flow through the throttle body. Allegedly good for about 10horsepower at 6000rpm. Ultimate air cleaner performance is more about getting good, clean air flow into the carb than anything else, usually. There also needs to be a certain space between the top of the carb throttle bores and the top of the filter housing, too. And that's for another discussion.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
The best thing you can do for your engine’s breathing is a CLEAN filter. Don’t laugh I’ve know guys who run pos New Old Stock (but old as hell) filters instead of new because they’re OEM correct. That’s fine on a parked car but bad for any type of driving. Air Filters are strange critters, working for CAT I can tell you a new filter flows the best but a dirty filter works the best. If you look at it from the filter makers point of view all they care about is protecting the engine first but with the least restriction possible. A new filter’s media can only catch so much crud but when it’s used for a while that same filth actually creates a better filter that catches more crud by filling in the microscopic gaps. This cleans the incoming air better and better until the restriction warrants replacement. That’s straight from the CAT filter bible and we make the best filters in the industry. Don’t even get me started on blowing out dirty filters. Do that at your own peril. Sonic cleaning works but it’s a dying art.

Anyone who’s ever bought some slobs derelict car knows this is true. Change the nasty old air filter and wow I gotta turn down the idle. I wonder why ???

I believe that K&N claims their air filters are better "dirty" than when new. I bought one once, than tried the faux-409 cleaner and then "re-oil spray" on it. Too much work and it didn't really come clean, it seemed. I went back to the Motorcraft elements (which were the next-best element tested by one of the magazines in the later '70s, with the K&N flowing the best). Strange about how those filters work.

CBODY67
 
I believe that K&N claims their air filters are better "dirty" than when new. I bought one once, than tried the faux-409 cleaner and then "re-oil spray" on it. Too much work and it didn't really come clean, it seemed. I went back to the Motorcraft elements (which were the next-best element tested by one of the magazines in the later '70s, with the K&N flowing the best). Strange about how those filters work.

CBODY67
That damn K&N oil killed a lot of mass airflow sensors back in the day. The oil mist would light it up like a burnt match. I’ve never cared for K&N but for a time they were the only game in town for an oval air grabber type replacement. This was before all the repops became available. I dumped the crappy six pack (I know it’s 6bbl but NOBODY called it that back then) on my AAR and ran a worked 650 double pumper for track and a 3310 for street. I took a lot of crap for running a four barrel on an AAR but it was my daily and it was faster that way. 6mpg with a 14 gallon tank LoL !!!! Young & dumb...

2218A7FF-6DEE-49AB-9613-ED47B1BF19A4.jpeg


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Best air cleaner in the world. Looks awesome and you can stack two filters w longer studs if you can’t find a tall filter that fits it.

Just my two cents. Your results may vary.
 
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In some of the filter catalogs that I've seen, there are cfm ratings of the various filter elements. Not sure of the filter housing they use to do these tests on, but most of the larger filter elements will not come close to the cfm ratings of the carbs they sit on top of! Like a 300cfm element on top of a 650cfm carb, for example. And it gets worse with the smaller air filter elements!


CBODY67
FWIW, without knowing the pressure the filters are tested at, we can't compare the filter flow rating to the carb rating.
Maybe it's the same pressure as a carb, but I'd kinda doubt it, as 2 and 4-barrel carb flow ratings are not done at the same pressure, so the filter rating is wrong for at least one carb type. And diesels don't have the throttle/venturi, so those wouldn't have a comparable 'thing' to a carb either.

So the only thing to do there is to compare flowrate between filters. But even that isn't the whole story.
Going to what Goose said, increased flowrate isn't beneficial if it's doing it by letting dirt thru.

Think of an oil filter that can catch the tiniest of particles, and keep absolutely everything out of your oil. Great, right? But it will also cause a greater restriction, and possibly bypass more frequently at higher flowrate (higher engine rpm) than a filter that allows more of those tiniest microns thru but can strain a higher volume of oil (thereby catching more big stuff). Which filter is better, then?

Filtration is a science and a balancing act, and the decisions are made into the products offered for sale. We don't know what the balance is, they don't put it on the package.
 
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Think of an oil filter that can catch the tiniest of particles, and keep absolutely everything out of your oil. Great, right? But it will also cause a greater restriction, and possibly bypass more frequently at higher flowrate (higher engine rpm) than a filter that allows more of those tiniest microns thru but can strain a higher volume of oil (thereby catching more big stuff).

Most modern oil filters are comparable to a clean out filter from the days gone by. Filtration will always be the cheapest insurance you can buy.

This was possibly the best filter campaign ever created.

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Never in the history of the auto repair industry were truer words spoken.
 
The best thing you can do for your engine’s breathing is a CLEAN filter. Don’t laugh I’ve know guys who run pos New Old Stock (but old as hell) filters instead of new because they’re OEM correct. That’s fine on a parked car but bad for any type of driving. Air Filters are strange critters, working for CAT I can tell you a new filter flows the best but a dirty filter works the best. If you look at it from the filter makers point of view all they care about is protecting the engine first but with the least restriction possible. A new filter’s media can only catch so much crud but when it’s used for a while that same filth actually creates a better filter that catches more crud by filling in the microscopic gaps. This cleans the incoming air better and better until the restriction warrants replacement. That’s straight from the CAT filter bible and we make the best filters in the industry. Don’t even get me started on blowing out dirty filters. Do that at your own peril. Sonic cleaning works but it’s a dying art.

Anyone who’s ever bought some slobs derelict car knows this is true. Change the nasty old air filter and wow I gotta turn down the idle. I wonder why ???
Yes dirty filters work better. The dirt particles are caught due to a reduction and redirection of air velocity. When this happens the dirt drops out of the air and is caught in the filter. That is the basic function of a filter design.
Kind of funny but a furnace serviceman once told my wife that a clean filter keeps the dust down in the house which is actually incorrect. Same as a car air filter by restricting air flow more dirt particles are caught. He should have told her it was hard on the furnace fan and motor.
Guess who she believes!
 
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I replaced my original single with this dual snorkel cleaner just cause it looks cool.
No noticeable performance change but there is a noticeable increase in noise at wot.
 
CFM are CFM, but lower vacuum drop means "less" and more vacuum drop means "more". 2bbls are rated with more vacuum drop than 4bbls are. As if the same machine could pull a greater vacuum drop with the more restrictive 2bbls and less with the less restrictive 4bbls? I'll have to look at the vacuum drop on the air filter elements by themselves . . . just to know what it is.

At one time, GM put out a TSB on NOT using K&N air filters on their products. Due to the MAF sensor issues. Their great idea to gauge airflow was to put a current through a bare wire, see how much more current it took to keep it at a certain temp, as the air flow across it cooled it. Worked good, until the K&N filter oil hit it . . . as mentioned.

Funny thing is that almost all of the AC air filter elements from the '60s and later were lightly oiled from the factory. Usually had an oil-soaked box, unless the filter element was in a plastic bag inside of it.

And then there's the volumetric efficiency curve of the engine, which comes into play when you determine how much air actually goes into the engine. LOTS of things to balance, other than just cosmetics! The Corvette open element filter (as also on the early Z/28s) had to be there for the classes the cars ran in, in SCCA and such, just as they had to have the same carbs on the race engines that were in the homologated street cars. Which is why a 302 needed a 780cfm carb . . . so that after the race engine was built, there would be "enough carb" there to win the race.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
First, I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to comment.

Today I ordered a bottom air cleaner plate for a 14 inch diameter filter. It has the AFB sized hole and is similar in design to the OE housing. I'll get a top and figure out how tall of a filter I can run.

My thoughts are that Ma Mopar was having some financial issues and compromised the exhaust and air intake to save some money. These cars had a single exhaust with 2 inch pipe and the Q-bert nosed air cleaner. You could buy a chromed open element (bottom) air cleaner from Hustle stuff.

Looking up road tests as best I could, it appears that against the Chevy Impala with the 325 horse 396 the C bodies were almost 2 seconds slower in the standing 1/4 mile. I realize that there are other factors that may not have helped but 2 seconds is a lot.
Another complaint was fuel economy.

My opinion, which isn't based on anything but personal experience, and drive time, is that the engine is choked and can't breathe. It certainly doesn't feel the way other big block powered vehicles I've owned ran. Yes there may be other issues. I'm working to eliminate them.

Anyway, I'm going to add a proper sized filter with as much unrestricted airflow as possible and see what happens. I think that will compliment the duals I installed nicely.
 
In one respect, you can't really compare equal-rated horsepower engines from different manufacturers. I know, it should be possible, but it doesn't always work that way. Especially when one factory rating has more real horsepower than the other one. Throw in different axle ratios, tires, and not quite the same vehicle weights. If one is more torque-oriented, it'll do better at lower rpms than one that's more mid-range/top end oriented. So, to me, what should be an equal pairing really doesn't come out that way.

And, sometimes the OEM tire choice was important as all rubber compounds aren't the same. For example, the '68 and prior C-bodies usually went through the road test handling tests with ease, but in '69, Chrysler was using a particular "upgrade" Goodyear tire that did not respond well in cornering AND the Saginaw power steering pump couldn't keep up with demands of the slalom (i.e., "pump catch" happened), which made them slower compared to other cars. Not good! Tire choice CAN be more important than you might suspect.

In the particular case of the 396, it had a spreadbore Rochester Q-jet carb as standard equipment. All 750 cfm of it! While the Chrysler's AFB was probably more like 600cfm or a bit less. But the Chevy exhaust was usually more restrictive than anything Chrysler ever built. Trade-off?

The fuel economy tests the magazines did back then were not really consistent between publications OR test drivers. So you had to look at the progression within each magazine rather than compare one to the other. Route and driving style were important, but even moreso now with EFI. CAR LIFE tested a '67 Fury 383 4bbl convertible (normal 3.23 axle ratio and *.55x14 tire size, all standard equipment for that model year). Nominal fuel economy was 14 on the highway, which I considered low. But then my '67 Newport 383 4bbl might have edged-out about 16 on trips (even with different carb/intake combinations aimed toward efficiency). Not quite as much as our '66 Newport 383 2bbl would do.

Key thing is that don't expect a less restrictive air cleaner to magically decrease the 1/4 mile ETs by .90 second or more. It might sound like it is, but . . . .

In EVERY engine design, there is one major restriction of sorts. Be it valves sizes, intake port sizes, exhaust manifold design, exhaust system design (Chrysler was usually better than GM or Ford at that), or carb size. In that continuum of things, the air cleaner is a somewhat minor player, to me, but a "contributing factor", too. Many tend to equate intake sounds to power, louder is more powerful, but that doesn't have to be the case.

MUCH of our automotive experiences are based on auditory and tactile "feels". Unsilenced air cleaners give more auditory rewards, generally, but with a quieter intake system of equal flow, you might suddenly wonder how you got to be going so fast so quickly (as you didn't hear anything happening to indicate such).

Of course, there's also that "push you back in the seat" feeling, but softer foam padding and weaker seat support springs might enhance that feeling too!

Back then, MOTOR TREND was usually the gold standard of car magazines. Just as HOT ROD was for "hot rods". Both from the old Petersen Publishing Co. CAR LIFE had a former Chrysler engineering person on their road test staff. They were usually more consistent in their tests, too. I usually felt like Chrysler products got a "better shake" from them, by observation, but they did well by all makes, too. BTAIM

IF you want to find a plethora of old magazine road tests and other factory-based information, head on over to www.wildaboutcars.com. Road tests, factory brochures, factory performance information, parts books, service information, etc. But the coverage varies from model year to model year and brand to brand. But a '72 Imperial-size load of car stuff and information, there! In order to get to the "deep dive" stuff, you might have to online registration and possibly become an archives' member (for a small fee), but you DO get a lot for the money. Kind of like Hamtramck Historical on steroids, but not just for Chrysler products.

The only way to do your research is to do it. Then you'll increase your personal knowledge base and continue on to more such research. Hopefully, there's funding! We've all been there, a time ago, I suspect.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
I'd be young fool to expect a nearly 1 second drop in et. I do expect a slight bump in low/mid range torque and a small mileage increase. While I expect the car to have a bit more "whoosh", it certainly won't be as loud as twin 600 Holleys with velocity stacks sticking through the hood. But you'd need to do a lot convincing to get me to believe 600 cfm will flow through an 1-3/4 air cleaner tube.
 
Doubt cost savings was the reason for a single snorkel and single exhaust. I suspect it was for a quiet and more luxurious ride. My 383 Monaco and the New Yorker 440 base motors may have 4bbls but are still luxury cars.
 
Full disclosure I didn't read all the long write ups here.

Simple test to see if your air cleaner is a problem: attach a vacuum gauge and go for a wot run. Remove air cleaner and repeat. If you are drawing (more) vacuum with the air cleaner it's restrictive.
 
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