Daughter's 88 Aries won't stay running....

thrashingcows

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Hoping someone can toss out some ideas on what's wrong with her car....88 Aries with a 2.5L TBI and an auto. Cream puff with 83K original KM's. Car ran great for a couple weeks after my daughter finally got her license and insured it, then came out one morning and this started.

First the problem...

Get in the car and turn the ignition to on and the fuel pump will prime the system, start the car and it fires for a second or two then dies. Even holding the key in start it will fire then die, then crank, fire and die again.

What have I done....

Before all this I did a service on the motor, fresh oil and filters (oil and air), new PCV valve, new cap and rotor, new coil, new fuel filter, new O2 sensor, Also a new timing belt and tensioner pulley. Serviced the transmission with new filter and fluid and adjusted the bands.

I spent hours searching the interwebs and found a bunch of threads on old boards with conditions similar to what her car is doing and started with the simple stuff first.

Checked all vacuum hoses for cracks and wear, and hooked up....no change.
I replaced the coolant temperature sensor...no change.
I then replaced the Air Intake Temp sensor...no change.
Replaced the distributor HAL magnetic pick up...no change.
Replaced the Idle Control solenoid...no change.
And today I replaced the fuel pump in the tank....again no change.

I have done the ignition on/off thing to check for codes and nothing comes up.

So now I don't know where to go from here...any thoughts, suggestions very much appreciated.
 
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Hoping someone can toss out some ideas on what's wrong with her car....88 Aries with a 2.5L TBI and an auto. Cream puff with 83K original KM's. Car ran great for a couple weeks after my daughter finally got her license and insured it, then came out one morning and this started.

First the problem...

Get in the car and turn the ignition to on and the fuel pump will prime the system, start the car and it fires for a second or two then dies. Even holding the key in start it will fire then die, then crank, fire and die again.

What have I done....

Before all this I did a service on the motor, fresh oil and filters (oil and air), new PCV valve, new cap and rotor, new coil, new fuel filter, new O2 sensor, Also a new timing belt and tensioner pulley. Serviced the transmission with new filter and fluid and adjusted the bands.

I spent hours searching the interwebs and found a bunch of threads on old boards with conditions similar to what her car is doing and started with the simple stuff first.

Checked all vacuum hoses for cracks and wear, and hooked up....no change.

I replaced the coolant temperature sensor...no change.

I then replaced the Air Intake Temp sensor...no change.

Replaced the distributor HAL magnetic pick up...no change.

Replaced the Idle Control solenoid...no change.

And today I replaced the fuel pump in the tank....again no change.

I have done the ignition on/off thing to check for codes and nothing comes up.

So now I don't know where to go from here...any thoughts, suggestions very much appreciated.

I would start with the coil. Unhook the coil wire to see if you have spark when cranking the engine. If the car ran before you did all this work to it, there was a bad part installed along the way. You probably have something with the tune up stuff that is not right. Start there. If you still have the old coil try putting it back on, same with the cap and rotor. Do one part at a time.

Dave
 
If you jump the fuel pump relay, force pump to stay on, any change?
I'm not sure they have auto shut down or just a timer for no run pump shut off.
Another quick direction finder is to supply gas outside of TB. Meter some gas in the throat to see if it will stay running. Then you will know ignition, or fuel.
 
Air - Fuel - Heat makes an engine run.
Are you getting good spark to each of the cylinders? Any chance of water in fuel? Or new driver, accidentally put diesel in it? Do you have fuel pressure? Some other simple stuff to verify.
I am assuming that it has run some time since the timing belt change.
 
I would start with the coil. Unhook the coil wire to see if you have spark when cranking the engine. If the car ran before you did all this work to it, there was a bad part installed along the way. You probably have something with the tune up stuff that is not right. Start there. If you still have the old coil try putting it back on, same with the cap and rotor. Do one part at a time.

Dave

The car was running fine for a couple weeks after all the tune up and servicing, so I don't think that there it is an issue with the parts I replaced. Car will fire and run for 1 or 2 seconds, then it's like the ignition is just turned off and it stops.
 
If you jump the fuel pump relay, force pump to stay on, any change?
I'm not sure they have auto shut down or just a timer for no run pump shut off.
Another quick direction finder is to supply gas outside of TB. Meter some gas in the throat to see if it will stay running. Then you will know ignition, or fuel.

I will try jumping the fuel pump relay and see if I can get it stay running. It does have an Auto Shut Down relay.

Actually I just remembered that one day I tried to feather the throttle carefully and I was able to keep it running, but it's more of a rev, then starts to sputter and die, then feather throttle and manage to get the RPM back up and repeat.

Wondering if it could be a bad TPS sensor?
 
Air - Fuel - Heat makes an engine run.
Are you getting good spark to each of the cylinders? Any chance of water in fuel? Or new driver, accidentally put diesel in it? Do you have fuel pressure? Some other simple stuff to verify.
I am assuming that it has run some time since the timing belt change.

I just drained all the fuel out to do the fuel pump and wondered that as well, no water in the fuel, nor was it diesel. ;) The fuel pump runs and primes the system, and the fuel pressure regulator cuts out the fuel pump once it reaches operating pressure. That was my thought too, weak OEM pump and couldn't maintain fuel pressure, that is why I replaced the fuel pump, but obviously it is something else since the problem did not change with new fuel pump.

And yes it was running and driving after the timing belt swap.
 
Brian.Despite having owned a K car myself,It was carbureted and sold it 3 years ago.
However,I did frequent the K car club forum often when I had my SuperK (My screen name there LOL)
Very helpfull people there..
The Chrysler K-Car Club • Index page
Hope this helps.
k car 025.JPG
 
Lea...I signed up for that Forum back on Aug 20/19, but no one ever got back to me to confirm my registration.

That is one of the sites I dug through looking for solutions to her problem.
 
I just tried the fire up and feather the throttle again. It seems to run OK once over 1000 rpm? but you still need to feather it lightly to keep it going, if you try and let it drop back to idle it immediately dies.

If it were carburated I'd almost swear it had major vacuum leak. I have tightened the bolts on the TBI unit and looked checked all the vacuum lines going to and coming from the TBI unit....everything looks good.
 
Lea...I signed up for that Forum back on Aug 20/19, but no one ever got back to me to confirm my registration.

That is one of the sites I dug through looking for solutions to her problem.
Sorry to hear that. maybe check thier FB page.

In the meantime I have at my work in the back stockroom old Chilton/Mot data books we used to use before using online suppliers.
I will dig through them tomorrow..
 
You need TPS voltage, and fuel pressure readings. Still dribbling fuel in from a squirt bottle or a water or soda pop bottle with a small hole in the lid would put a fork in the road and show which way to go in about 15-20 seconds.
If the pump is kept running with jumper or car keeps running with fuel dribbled in I would look at fuel pressure regulator.
A electrical problem in the fuel injectors would/should result in a code. Mechanical issue could be on injectors, also pointed to by dribbling fuel in.
 
You need TPS voltage, and fuel pressure readings. Still dribbling fuel in from a squirt bottle or a water or soda pop bottle with a small hole in the lid would put a fork in the road and show which way to go in about 15-20 seconds.
If the pump is kept running with jumper or car keeps running with fuel dribbled in I would look at fuel pressure regulator.
A electrical problem in the fuel injectors would/should result in a code. Mechanical issue could be on injectors, also pointed to by dribbling fuel in.

I tried jumping the fuel pump so it was running constantly, the car still did the 1-2 second run and then shut down. I will try the dribbling fuel into the TB and see what it does. I will also look into figuring out how to get fuel pressure and TPS voltage readings.

Of course the crappy Chilton manual that came with the car does not go into the TBI system in depth, so no idea what TPS readings and fuel pressure I need to see....guess I will dig around on-line and see what I can find.
 
Hoping someone can toss out some ideas on what's wrong with her car....88 Aries with a 2.5L TBI and an auto. Cream puff with 83K original KM's. Car ran great for a couple weeks after my daughter finally got her license and insured it, then came out one morning and this started.

First the problem...

Get in the car and turn the ignition to on and the fuel pump will prime the system, start the car and it fires for a second or two then dies. Even holding the key in start it will fire then die, then crank, fire and die again.

What have I done....

Before all this I did a service on the motor, fresh oil and filters (oil and air), new PCV valve, new cap and rotor, new coil, new fuel filter, new O2 sensor, Also a new timing belt and tensioner pulley. Serviced the transmission with new filter and fluid and adjusted the bands.

I spent hours searching the interwebs and found a bunch of threads on old boards with conditions similar to what her car is doing and started with the simple stuff first.

Checked all vacuum hoses for cracks and wear, and hooked up....no change.
I replaced the coolant temperature sensor...no change.
I then replaced the Air Intake Temp sensor...no change.
Replaced the distributor HAL magnetic pick up...no change.
Replaced the Idle Control solenoid...no change.
And today I replaced the fuel pump in the tank....again no change.

I have done the ignition on/off thing to check for codes and nothing comes up.

So now I don't know where to go from here...any thoughts, suggestions very much appreciated.
A few random things to look at first. IDK about your car, but the older ones had an engine management computer inside the car, passenger side, against the bulk head... there was an incorporated MAP sensor and with m/mounts worn or repairs like the timing belt... the vacuum hose would often get disconnected (passes through the bulkhead).

I know that you looked over the vacuum hoses already, but many of these had a trouble prone vacuum harness... they'd rot and split and cause all sorts of headaches. They used to sell replacement, premade vacuum harnesses cheaper than you could assemble something with all the hose connections and size changes.

Probably should have been first, but with fuel injection, there is an IAC valve in there. IAC's get gummed up, and carb/TB cleaner can make things worse. The easiest way to see if you can improve it is to spray carb/TB cleaner into the throat of the throttle body while snapping the throttle... quick-spray-spray- spray-snap the throttle... usually gets the job done. Do not replace the IAC without cleaning the passages first. Particularly on older systems like this, do not disconnect any electronics while turned on.

I'm uncertain if this car will produce codes with 3 keystrokes... but try... ignition off-run-off-run-off-run (no cranks)... the CEL should start flashing, with a slight pause in between digits, get ready to count and write down 2 digit codes. If it works off the codes I vaguely remember, 12 and 55 are common, IIRC battery disconnected stored code, and end of codes. Any others deserve a look up.
 
Brian..From my Identafix program..Used by my Techs and not shown to the public..
"Engine starts, stalls. Will stay running on an added fuel source. No codes."

1. Test the Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor voltage at key on engine off. It should be close to 4.5 volts.

2. Test the fuel pressure, it should be close to 15 PSI.

3. Check the spray pattern from the fuel injector as it is common for the injector to fail mechanically and not give the engine enough fuel and not trip any codes. Replace the injector as needed.
Potential Causes
Fuel Injector
Fuel Pressure
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor Circuit
Confirmed Fixes
8 - Replaced Fuel Injector(s)
2 - Replaced Fuel Pump
1 - Circuit
1 - Replaced Fuel Pressure Regulator
So,after reading this,and reveiwing what parts you already replaced,I am leaning (pun not intended) to injector.

Based on my information it was a common issue on the 2.5L between 88 up to 91 in Caravans,Acclaim,Spirit,Shadow,Sundance,etc.
Good luck,hope this helps
 
Brian,your inbox is full.
Before condeming the injector,check the wiring for the injector first.
Also the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor does use vacuum are famous for taking a dump in those engine too.
 
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I made the mistake once of getting the magnetic pickup coil (HAL) wiring caught/pinched between the distributor cap and the base of the distributor base.
Acted very similar to this.
Ran like a charm after I found and replaced the pickup coil...

Have you wiggled the ignition key around after it starts?
 
I just tried the fire up and feather the throttle again. It seems to run OK once over 1000 rpm? but you still need to feather it lightly to keep it going, if you try and let it drop back to idle it immediately dies.

If it were carburated I'd almost swear it had major vacuum leak. I have tightened the bolts on the TBI unit and looked checked all the vacuum lines going to and coming from the TBI unit....everything looks good.

How old is the battery? I have a 96 Jeep that if the battery is low it acts exactly as described.
 
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