Gen 3 Hemi Cam Shaft Issues?

Hmmm...odd...I saw this same subject on another forum so I did some searching. What did I come up with? The same link as posted here.
Great minds think alike!
 
While I'm learning still as I build my first gen III project it's important to vet what year of engine as well as there's been a lot of incremental improvements 2004-2020. They are not the same engines over that time. Think about the little things that changed about big blocks from 58-79.

From what I understand the 09 and up engines have the obvious better performance but also better reliability.
 
While I'm learning still as I build my first gen III project it's important to vet what year of engine as well as there's been a lot of incremental improvements 2004-2020. They are not the same engines over that time. Think about the little things that changed about big blocks from 58-79.

From what I understand the 09 and up engines have the obvious better performance but also better reliability.
They have way better heads and quench, they could make the ports larger and still controllable by the variable valve timing. They also ended up with improved quality assurance once the Germans released slow strangulation/suffocation.
The 2010 up 5.7 heads flow around the same as the 6.1 heads.
 
I reread some stuff on moparts, lifters are improved after 2012, revised part number that you can buy over the counter today to retrofit
 
Calculating the variables in some of these failures could be as difficult as calculating the next winning loto numbers.

As sure as oil chemistry matters so does quantity.
The rightest oil in the world is no help if its not on the scene.

I can't fathom a way to do a large multi batch inspection and mechanical test. It would take a manufacturer to commit to that.

I do know that manufacturer recommendations are to be taken with a grain of salt. Stretching out service intervals affects there overall epa ratings.
And in my opinion they are too far apart for anything but easy highway driving.

I also don't take oil products at face value. Fortunately the common person has reasonable access to testing laboratories today. That forces some honesty from that industry.

I can remember when I was working as a construction contractor employee at an oil mixing plant less than 20 years ago.
On the bottle filling line. The brand bottles would change with no interruption to the process. Totally different gimmick marketing on the label.
 
We see it regularly in the shop wiped cam on a gen III hemi. Where are you getting your oil sir... uh at Walmart etc uh huh and how often did you change the oil? Uh when it needed it... SMH

My 06 Magnum AWD RT has 350000kms on it runs great only has hemi tick for first 5 min etc etc however I run Penzoil 5W20 conventional oil every 7000kms. Anything else and it pukes codes or mds acts up. Oil has been identified as the biggest contributor to causing cam issues and as stated it wasn’t until 2009 that the problem seemed to be dealt with.
 
(after doing some catching up . . .)

Before I'd get all excited about a posted video, I'd FIRST look at the person's credentials on the subject being presented. I've seen a few videos about cylinder head castings, as to which is best and such, to be a bit flawed in the information, plus leaving out other information they probably were not aware of, as they weren't there when those particular castings were then-newer. BTAIM

Rust on a cylinder block, due to oil? TBN is "Total Base Number", relating to the acidic or base orientation of the oil. It WILL decrease as the oil is run in the engine, as the oil becomes a bit diluted with the acidic by-products of gasoline combustion. General rule, from the oil forums, is to change the oil before the TBN reaches 2.0. Most start in the 7.0-9.0 level. Check the "Used Oil Analysis" postings to see how it degrades in particular engines, with particular brands oi oil. Then check the "Virgin Oil Analysis" postings to see where it started. Using oil analysis to determine oil change intervals is how many large fleets determine when to do their oil changes, using the TBN as a guide. For example, when SM was replaced with SN, the generally lower TBN of the SN oils resulted in OCIs of 22K miles rather than 25K miles in one particular fleets situation.

As far as oil viscosity recommendations go, the OEM has to advocate that particular viscosities be used IF that's what they sued to certify the engines for EPA fuel economy and emissions certification. By observation, many VVT and/or "cylinder deactivation" engines will need lower viscosity oils compared to the engines without these features.

In the link to the camshaft failure discussion on another forum, it was mentioned that with a 5yr/60K powertrain warranty, the vehicle was suspected to be out of warranty in miles before the time limit occurred. As if that's what they "designed" things to now, as if FCA was playing that game in the camshaft longevity area ONLY. But we know that warranty length can be a marketing tool, but also can relate to warranty claims and their payment to the dealers. For the record, GM pickups are covered for 5yr/60K miles, too, at least of the 2017 models.

The reason I happened to find this out was that my company truck, a 2017 GMC Sierra Texas Edition, 5.3L V-8, came up with a new noise two days ago. A different noise that kind of sounded like a broken flywheel, but was more of a rubbing sound than an itching sound. Kind of like when our 6.0L needed a camshaft at 70K miles.

In this case, it was a lobe on cyl #8 that had a chink out of the top of the lobe. About the size of "( )", which was not all the way to the edge of the lobe. Not very deep, but I could feel a sharp edge on the area, which had a rough area within it. 59K miles of mixed city/highway miles. Regular maintenance at my work (GM dealer). Warranty tab was about $4800.00, I was told today. No score marks on the lobe, that one or any other one. This was also a non-ActiveFuel Management cylinder, fwiw.

For a long time, it'd had a dry squeak when I'd start it, cold or hot. I figured it was a dry starter bushing. We've got another such pickup that makes a similar noise. After hearing that truck start, I figured it was something new and normal. Squeak is now gone. Don't know if something was changed when the engine came out or not.

Chrysler, like GM, Ford, and others have their own oil specs, although many can be met by the same oil. European brands have their "Approval numbers" rather than the API (or similar) specs. For example, GM had a spec for normal motor oil, a spec for semi-syn oil (the original Dexos 1), and an older spec for the engines which were recommended to use Mobil 1. Probably similar with Ford and Chrysler, I suspect.

I suspect that what many might not fully understand is that the engine's internal environment is a very oil mist, from the vortex of oil spinning around the crankshaft, the oil flowing back from the rocker arm area, etc. We got along for ages with just splash lube of cam lobes, when they were "sliding" tappets on a cam lobe, rather than a roller camshaft.

Perhaps these roller cam failures might be more due to the intensity of the lobe's shape? Most of the modern cams have lifts of .500" or a bit more. Spring tensions have to be capable of living with that amount of lift for very long times, too.

As for failure rates, the best info would be the OEM's own warranty claims. Which would also probably indicate particular model years and mileages, on a bell-curve situation. Or, perhaps, "Consumer Reports" reliability data?

By observation, from other things over the years, warranty issues usually might happen for particular models/years, but those issues usually have a cyclical nature of only a few months in a particular model year, but still a typical time when they might fail under warranty. AND at what percentage of total production might fail!

It might be interesting to plot the failure rates in the particular model years and engine sizes. Rather than paint them with a broad brush.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
(after doing some catching up . . .)

Before I'd get all excited about a posted video, I'd FIRST look at the person's credentials on the subject being presented. I've seen a few videos about cylinder head castings, as to which is best and such, to be a bit flawed in the information, plus leaving out other information they probably were not aware of, as they weren't there when those particular castings were then-newer. BTAIM

Rust on a cylinder block, due to oil? TBN is "Total Base Number", relating to the acidic or base orientation of the oil. It WILL decrease as the oil is run in the engine, as the oil becomes a bit diluted with the acidic by-products of gasoline combustion. General rule, from the oil forums, is to change the oil before the TBN reaches 2.0. Most start in the 7.0-9.0 level. Check the "Used Oil Analysis" postings to see how it degrades in particular engines, with particular brands oi oil. Then check the "Virgin Oil Analysis" postings to see where it started. Using oil analysis to determine oil change intervals is how many large fleets determine when to do their oil changes, using the TBN as a guide. For example, when SM was replaced with SN, the generally lower TBN of the SN oils resulted in OCIs of 22K miles rather than 25K miles in one particular fleets situation.

As far as oil viscosity recommendations go, the OEM has to advocate that particular viscosities be used IF that's what they sued to certify the engines for EPA fuel economy and emissions certification. By observation, many VVT and/or "cylinder deactivation" engines will need lower viscosity oils compared to the engines without these features.

In the link to the camshaft failure discussion on another forum, it was mentioned that with a 5yr/60K powertrain warranty, the vehicle was suspected to be out of warranty in miles before the time limit occurred. As if that's what they "designed" things to now, as if FCA was playing that game in the camshaft longevity area ONLY. But we know that warranty length can be a marketing tool, but also can relate to warranty claims and their payment to the dealers. For the record, GM pickups are covered for 5yr/60K miles, too, at least of the 2017 models.

The reason I happened to find this out was that my company truck, a 2017 GMC Sierra Texas Edition, 5.3L V-8, came up with a new noise two days ago. A different noise that kind of sounded like a broken flywheel, but was more of a rubbing sound than an itching sound. Kind of like when our 6.0L needed a camshaft at 70K miles.

In this case, it was a lobe on cyl #8 that had a chink out of the top of the lobe. About the size of "( )", which was not all the way to the edge of the lobe. Not very deep, but I could feel a sharp edge on the area, which had a rough area within it. 59K miles of mixed city/highway miles. Regular maintenance at my work (GM dealer). Warranty tab was about $4800.00, I was told today. No score marks on the lobe, that one or any other one. This was also a non-ActiveFuel Management cylinder, fwiw.

For a long time, it'd had a dry squeak when I'd start it, cold or hot. I figured it was a dry starter bushing. We've got another such pickup that makes a similar noise. After hearing that truck start, I figured it was something new and normal. Squeak is now gone. Don't know if something was changed when the engine came out or not.

Chrysler, like GM, Ford, and others have their own oil specs, although many can be met by the same oil. European brands have their "Approval numbers" rather than the API (or similar) specs. For example, GM had a spec for normal motor oil, a spec for semi-syn oil (the original Dexos 1), and an older spec for the engines which were recommended to use Mobil 1. Probably similar with Ford and Chrysler, I suspect.

I suspect that what many might not fully understand is that the engine's internal environment is a very oil mist, from the vortex of oil spinning around the crankshaft, the oil flowing back from the rocker arm area, etc. We got along for ages with just splash lube of cam lobes, when they were "sliding" tappets on a cam lobe, rather than a roller camshaft.

Perhaps these roller cam failures might be more due to the intensity of the lobe's shape? Most of the modern cams have lifts of .500" or a bit more. Spring tensions have to be capable of living with that amount of lift for very long times, too.

As for failure rates, the best info would be the OEM's own warranty claims. Which would also probably indicate particular model years and mileages, on a bell-curve situation. Or, perhaps, "Consumer Reports" reliability data?

By observation, from other things over the years, warranty issues usually might happen for particular models/years, but those issues usually have a cyclical nature of only a few months in a particular model year, but still a typical time when they might fail under warranty. AND at what percentage of total production might fail!

It might be interesting to plot the failure rates in the particular model years and engine sizes. Rather than paint them with a broad brush.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
I concur with what you stated regarding TBN. I do this (analysis) on my vehicles.

Another point to throw in the 3+ ring circus is that manufacturers have not ‘warranteed ’ failures when the owner used Amsoil and met or exceeded the manufacturer’s documented (in the owner’s manual) service intervals. An Amsoil user, with Amsoil sued one of the big 3 for them not warrantee-ing the repair and won. My point is that the manufacturers are greedy and don’t like do it yourself-ers.
 
I concur with what you stated regarding TBN. I do this (analysis) on my vehicles.

Another point to throw in the 3+ ring circus is that manufacturers have not ‘warranteed ’ failures when the owner used Amsoil and met or exceeded the manufacturer’s documented (in the owner’s manual) service intervals. An Amsoil user, with Amsoil sued one of the big 3 for them not warrantee-ing the repair and won. My point is that the manufacturers are greedy and don’t like do it yourself-ers.

Selling service is a critical part of their infrastructure. When the economy turns down selling service is what assures that there is a place to sell the product.
 
Selling service is a critical part of their infrastructure. When the economy turns down selling service is what assures that there is a place to sell the product.
I understand that. Their desire to obtain my business is not the issue. The fact that they denied warrantee fulfillment because one services the vehicle with products that meet or exceed their recommendations (as documented in the owner’s manual) and are performed by a third party, is flat out wrong.
I also realize that I am an outlier, but that doesn’t matter when the factual data and artifacts demonstrated compliance with their requirements.
 
Easy fix for warranty problems!
Buy a vehicle that is not under warranty, when it breaks you fix it, problem solved, no argument over coverage, you broke it you fix it period.
If you can't afford to fix said vehicle, then you could not afford it in the first place, you chose your vehicle poorly.
 
Selling service is a critical part of their infrastructure. When the economy turns down selling service is what assures that there is a place to sell the product.

It is the cornerstone of the dealer business plan.

The dealership makes the majority of its money from the parts and service department, not the sales department. A 10 bay service department at $120 an hour per door is 1200 an hour. No way the sales department can touch that number.

Kevin
 
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It is the cornerstone of the dealer business plan.

The service department makes the majority of its money from the parts and service department, not the sales department. A 10 bay service department at $120 an hour per door is 1200 an hour. No way the sales department can touch that number.

Kevin
True to an extent. A well run operation will have an Absorption Rate of 80% from the Fixed Operation side while the Sales Side is the gravy. Unfortunately lately with the Taj Mahals being built the AR has declined into the 60% range for most stores meaning that the Sales operation has to become better (in most cases more aggressive). Technicians have learned that they are an endangered species and will command an ever increasing proportion of the door rate in order to stay. We are often held hostage to our techs as we have a difficult time replacing them.
 
Technicians have learned that they are an endangered species and will command an ever increasing proportion of the door rate in order to stay. We are often held hostage to our techs as we have a difficult time replacing them
Another job that is no longer satisfying, and miserable at the same time. Guess that 120+ /he shop rate and the boss arguing with you every year about how they can't afford your raise is starting to come home to roost.
Wait for 10 years with the ELDs in trucks, around 2028. You think your shelves were bare in the pandemic. Dick heads like me will be gone and the guys behind me will be close. Nobody is lining up for a crap pay job on the road where big brother is watching 24/7
 
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It seems like when I was doing it we were grossing about 1/3 the hourly rate, no diagnostic fees, no shop supplies were charged. From what little I know now I think they're getting ~ 20% of the hourly rate?
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A few things can happen that can cause this mechanism to break down, the most common of which is oil contamination (change your oil). When small pieces of dirt block the lube circuit, the lifter may not be able to change state, or the change may happen slower, or only partially. A common scenario with the MDS system in Hemis is where the ECM believes the lifter is engaged at higher rpm when it is not. Here, the internal pin that locks the lifter body to the plunger is still disengaged when the engine rpm goes up. In this failure mode, the roller follows the cam lobe, until it reaches an engine speed where it can't, and the roller crashes repeatedly on the lobe. Eventually, the lifter, roller, needle bearings, and the lobe surface become damaged to the point of failure.
I think this is what happened to the engine in a RAM1500 (Hemi, 8-speed) rental I had about 3 years ago. I don't know if oil contamination was an issue, but this was a fairly new truck. Rental places never keep their vehicles very long.

One day I took off from a stoplight at a normal pace through the intersection, then stood on the accelerator for awhile. When I let-off, I heard a slight popping sound in the exhaust that I was sure wasn't there before. (I had already been driving it for a couple weeks so I was familiarized with how it normally sounded.) I still had it for another 2 weeks or so, and the sound slowly continued to get worse. I think it initially engaged MDS because I wasn't accelerating that fast through the intersection, then the MDS lifter pin didn't engage before the RPMs came up, and the lifter wound-up bouncing off the cam lobe.
 
I understand that. Their desire to obtain my business is not the issue. The fact that they denied warrantee fulfillment because one services the vehicle with products that meet or exceed their recommendations (as documented in the owner’s manual) and are performed by a third party, is flat out wrong.
I also realize that I am an outlier, but that doesn’t matter when the factual data and artifacts demonstrated compliance with their requirements.

Yea, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they won't rip you off. Or potentially their own employees at times.
We have all seen the spectrum.
 
Here's a missed point in any DIY function (i.e., oil changes and such) when a vehicle is under warranty. DOCUMENTATION. Plain and simple.

Here's an example from a long-ago (late 1990s thread in the old Usenet Chrysler BBS). A man purchased a new Dodge minivan from a dealer in CA. He wanted to keep it well and went to the dealership's service manager to see what brand/type of oil they used in their service department. He stated his intention of doing the oil changes himself, which got no ill remarks from the service manager. The man used an oil filter which was stated to "meet or exceed factory . . . ". So he did the oil changes (after the first free one) himself. A year or so later, his engine cratered. "Oill sludge" was the determination. Which typically equated to "lack of maintenance", so the warranty claim was denied, upon inspection of the failed engine.

The owner was naturally not pleased. He maintained that he'd done the oil changes at the mileage states in the owner's manual. Claim still denied. Reason? LACK OF DOCUMENTATION of what he'd done. No sales receipts for the oil or filter, for example. They might not have had a mileage figure attached to them, but they would have a date. A date which might have been then related to a mileage amount.

At that time, most oil filters had a flap on the box where mileage and dates could be written. Ad that to a sales receipt, and that would have been on level of documentation which could be presented, if needed. By the same token, the old oil change stickers which service stations used to stick to the door frames would similarly be documentation (having mileage and dates), too.

Turning things around . . . if YOU were the manufacturer and a dealer was requesting YOU to pry for a warranty repair/replacement of an engine which appeared to have failed from lack of maintenance, would YOU want to see documentation of performance of the prescribed maintenance, too?

I'm not sure about the Amsoil issues mentioned, but it seems to me that Amsoil used to claim that you could extend the maintenance intervals with their motor oils. Only thing would be that the brand/type of oil is not mentioned, just that it's done at a particular time/mileage interval. BTAIM.

As for oil change intervals, there used to be TWO maintenance schedules. "Normal", which has the longest time/mileage oil change intervals and the "Severe Use" schedule, which has much shorter maintenance intervals, due to the fact those vehicles would see either HD use or "trips less than 10 miles/trip, frequently". Problem is that what many might consider as "normal use" is actually more like the "severe use" actual vehicle use! Many perceive that as long as the coolant temp gets "hot" each time the vehicle is started, that's "normal use". But it usually takes about 10 miles of highway driving for the engine OIL temp to approach engine coolant temp. SAME with the ATF temps, too. So unless the motor oil gets hot and stays hot for a good while, the moisture from crankcase condensate does not get "cooked out". As a side note, daily use of my '80 Newport 360, in cooler/cold weather would still result in a milky accumulation at the top of the dipstick and a clogged pcv line to the carb . . . with no loss of coolant level in the radiator.

Back when the Dodge van's owner had his engine problem, with no documentation of maintenance, there were developing many issues with "oil sludge monster" engines from USA manufacturers. Not just Chrysler, either! Which would relate to the brand of motor oil, with some being worse than others, although meeting the same API specs.

Back in the early 2000s, we did a complete engine replacement on a Cadillac NorthStar V-8, just before it went out of the manufacturer's powertrain warranty. The issue? Oil consumption. Documentation, our dealership had done all of the oil changes since new. Which meant we had a pile of "documentation". After doing the GM-prescribed oil consumption test, which we also administered, approval was granted to do the engine replacement. Had the oil changes been done somewhere else (outside of the dealership network), the replacement might not have been approved as readily.

There are NO issues with people changing their own oil and such, might even be better than it would be otherwise, if somebody else did it. But as long as the vehicle is in factory or extended warranty periods (time and miles), that dealership oil change CAN be the best way to do things, by observation. Plus not having to deal with the removed oil/filter recycling operations. Some customers used to bring their own oil, let us sell the OEM foil filter, and let us to the labor. For a reduced total charge. No problems there, either. But as oil specs have changed on newer vehicles, the most bullet-proof way to do it is to let the dealer do that stuff.

Remember when Mercedes had their engine problems in the 1990s? Many claims from customers were denied due to "lack of documentation" of oil changes. But if the dealerships did the oil changes (with documentation), those claims were paid, as long as the maintenance interval was "to spec". Even if the dealership used a less-expensive motor oil than most European owners might have used. It was noted that most European owners would be more likely to use synthetic motor oil, whereas many USA owners would use the least expensive oils (including, as it was discovered, many Mercedes dealers).

During that same time, BMW had engines which required a 10W-60 motor oil. They wisely went to a "bumper-to-bumper, maintenance included" factory warranty. Which meant that the dealers stocked the correct Castrol-sourced BMW-spec motor oils. As I recall, about the only place to get the 10W-60 Castrol was at AutoZone or the BMW dealers. Their engines which didn't require the 10W-60 oils used something more readily-available, so no oil-related issues with that engine family. So, BMW side-stepped a huge amount of negative press for their products with their expanded maintenance-included factory warranty.

Thanks for your time. Just some thoughts and observations,
CBODY67
 
Great points. Unfortunately, documentation is largely a cultural practice that requires it to be instilled to a generation by the previous one. As it is, like me, when you are mature enough to appreciate it, you have never done it and it"s hard to start a committed routine. There is much throw away culture in this country. It goes back to the founding. Countless entire towns have been thrown away. The cars that this site is based upon were largely discarded before they were 10 years old.
In shopping late model cars for my wife I found it nearly impossible to find 10 year old cars with under 130k. More like 190k+. Yet most of the cars I have own have been made between 68 and 78 and nearly all of them had 80 something. Seriously like between 83 and 87k I never had to put a motor in one that had a motor. I drive them everyday until I want something else. Then I find some other 84k mile car.

When I was in my early twenties I was really into British motorcycles and still have some from then.
In reading about old british bike for sale in England there was an expectation that a machine came with an owners log. Like it was a part of the bike.
I was enamored with the concept.
I bought a new bike in 2000. With a new log book.(wife bought me that). I still have both and the original sales receipt.
The bike has 100k on it and the only parts that are original to it are, the engine case, the complete transmission, the speedo and tach, and the axles.
I built the frame, the fuel tank, the engine, the wiring harness, two different front ends, and painted it.

I think the first two services that I did are in the book. Then I went to a system. Change the engine oil every 2000 miles. Change the trans and primary every other time. Somewhere there is a digital file with an excell spreadsheet detailing the motor build. That is if I loaded it on an external hard drive before trashing a computer.

Brake calipers. Still has the original calipers...
 
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