Suggestions on 440 build

[WissaMan]

The 440 in our 68 300 'vert needs to be rebuilt. It's running ok right now, but it leaks oil, burns oil, and has a noisy lifter. It may even still have the original cam gear which I've always got in the back of my mind every time I romp on it.

I have both a '73 and '74 440 available so rather than take out the original 440 and have it rebuilt, I'd like to get one of those rebuilt and then swap it in so as to avoid downtime. I know there are certain things that make a '68 440 more desirable than the 73 or 74 stock-for-stock, but I'd like to do mild build and so most of the things that differentiate them won't matter.

I have never done an engine build before but I've done enough reading to know that it's important to get parts that work together to reach your set goals. So the question in my mind right now is, should I...

#1 do the research and buy the parts I need, picking the most appropriate parts from various mfgrs/vendors.

#2 engage with a vendor that's a Mopar specialist to set me up with the parts I need (such as 440 Source).

#3 engage with a local engine builder and just tell them what I want and let them spec it out. There is a shop nearby that is pretty well regarded: Andy Jensen's Engine Technologies. High performance engine builder in Pennsylvania.

Even in the case of #1 or #2 I'd be having someone else build the motor because I don't have the knowledge or tools...

 

[Trace 300 Hurst]

I'm pretty sure you'll be doing all three as you go thru the process and learn more and more about your desired build. I certainly don't think you should just go straight to #3. It'll be fun and rewarding to be involved and knowledgeable. We'll follow along with ya, too!

Another thought, if your 68 engine is the original and you want to keep it that way, purchase all the parts ahead of time and the engine shop "shouldn't" take much time to do the work. This means you HAVE to do 1 and 2.

And another thought: Figure out what paint you plan to use NOW, because that's the most confusing specification of all.

 

[FURYGT]

#3 - Go meet with your local engine builder and talk with him about what you want. If you are not building a highly modified engine I would just use the '68 engine. The benefit from the 73 or 74 engines is that they already have hardened valve seats.

Just because your original engine leaks and burns oil and has a noisy lifter does not necessarily mean that it needs to be rebuilt. It might just need gaskets, a timing chain, new lifters, valve seals and anything else in the valve train that is worn may need to be replaced. Have you done a compression check in each cylinder? I do that before anything.

How many miles on your engine?

The above is just my 2 cents.

 

[cbarge]

The 74 engine will have a lower compression ratio and hardened valve seats in the heads--that's good for today's gasoline.
Power may be down buuuut you can bring it up a bit no problem.
Check the run out on the cylinders and hope you do not have to bore it out and buy new pistions --that is the most expesnsive part in the rebuild next to machining.
If you can clean and re-use the old pistions,give the block a good hot tanking, honing of the cylinders,and re-ring the pistons.
To make more power without $$$ machining everything, port match and polish the heads,select a good cam that will give good bottom end grunt yet really nice highway manners.
Port match the intake to the heads and use a 750 CFM carb
IIRC the 74 water pump housing is different,make sure you use the orignal 68 one

 

[Samplingman]

I went with number 3 for mine, but have yet to start it for the first time. The only thing I did myself was choose the cam. My builder did mine in about a week, not much downtime. Personally, I would build the ‘68, but there really isn’t much difference between the years, I think the steel crank was made up to ‘73 or ‘74.

 

[Davea Lux]

Steel crank was standard thru the '73 production run. '74 could be either iron or steel depending on if the engine was a standard or HP. Either the '73 or '74 engine will start with low compression pistons. I would not build a cast iron crank engine unless you are planning to toss the crank. With the '68 engine you are starting with a high compression engine with a steel crank. You will need to install hardened valve seats to run on today's crap gasoline and you probably will need to select 9.5 compression pistons as that is about all you can get away on today's gas. The stock pistons on the '68 440 were 10-1 with either the 350 or 375 horse engine. If your '68 engine is a HP unit, it should already have the high performance exhaust that breathes better at higher rpms than the 350 horse log manifolds. Decent exhaust is a must for any performance build. Plan to toss the log manifolds as part of any performance build.

The '68 engine may or may not need a rebuild as noted above. A lot of that will depend on how many miles were on the engine and the type of service it received. A lot of this era valve guides fared poorly on unleaded fuels. As the guides wore out, they began to leak oil down the valve guides. A tell tale sign of this type oil consumption is a puff of blue smoke on starting the engine. An engine with bad valve guides and seals will burn as much as a quart of oil every 500mi from that problem alone. If the engine does not have a lot of blow by, I would be inclined to do the heads and install bronze guides, hardened seats and new seals and valve springs, install new valves if the stems are worn and leave the performance build to a later day. If you are upgrading a 350 horse engine to a performance oriented cam, be sure to install the appropriate valve springs. It will usually be necessary to do a full overhaul of the engine if a significant build is desired. A lot of folks have found out the hard way that throwing a big cam in a old engine caused the tired engine to break something in fairly short order. If you decide to do heads be sure to replace the factory timing chain as part of that process.

Dave

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Do a compression and or leakdown test to determine the health of the bottom end. Throwing a rebuild at a engine that just has worn out heads is a waste of money and time.

 

[Trace 300 Hurst]

First, study this:

Then read this:

Then find a shadetree and take your shirt off:

And install one of these:

 

[413]

Just keep the 68 engine. Its foolish to swap it with anything else.
As stated above do your homework, Make a plan. Then do the job and get it back together. Doesn’t need to be down very long at all.

 

[CBODY67]

When changing to a different model year, especially into the '70s from the later '60s, double check ALL of the bracket mounting locations on the block! Although the internals might all be the same, the external mounting locations did change some between the later model years. Not sure when they did, but know they did . . . as evidenced when a customer purchased a B-J car and had to redo the engine. The customer supplied a "440 long block", but when it arrived, it had different mounting places cast into the block. So after determining what the model year of the new block was, it was salvage yard time for the needed p/s and such bracket set. One of those things you don't expect to have to do, until it lands in your lap.

Past that, do NOT go to the bottom of the parts catalog to choose cams and such. Better to stay more toward the middle, usually, by observation. Wisdom from my machine shop operative.

In a recent thread on a '68 Fury III 383 4bbl, it mentions a Lunati cam that is approx what an improved 383/335 or 440/375 cam would be. Works with stock 4bbl pistons, it seems. Owner was happy with that. Would probably work well in a 440, too.

Be concerned with how they bore, hone, and line hone the blocks AND the experience of the operator that does these things. NO matter of how well the shop might be regarded. ASK those quesitons and also to see the equipment, for good measure.

OEM quality rings, bearings, etc, usually is a good place to start with the parts. You can spend more and not get a better end result, by observation. ASK what they use/recommend and related prices. Which is why the "OEM quality of better" is important. You want 100K durability, or better with good quality motor oil and filter. IF you mention "high performance", the price can increase as any warranties might decrease.

Double-roller timing chain. Cloyes possibly, or equal. OEM quality gaskets, at least. They probably use "good stuff", as a matter of course.

ASK about some of the others Mopar B/RB engines they have built. What they used in them, what the intended uses of these engines were.

Make SRE that they assemble the engine/long block to allow for it possibly sitting for a while between the time they finish it and the time it gets installed. PLUS initial start-up and cam break-in procedures!!!

Might even let them install the distributor for you. Although this might complicate the engine's handling as it's transported and installed. Making sure that it's all ready to go, just adding plug wires and spark plugs.

Sometimes, the "devil is in the details", but planning for these things up-front, rather than when they later happen, can make things work much nicer, by observation.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[WissaMan]

Thanks everyone for all the insight and assistance! Like one of you said, it will probably be a combination of all 3.

In answer to some of the various questions asked...

The 68 engine has just a tick over 100k. Both the 73 and 74 engines are in 68 Chryslers right now so I assume they should just drop right in, or at the very least, the required hardware is in the other cars.

I'm not saying money is no object, but I'm definitely not trying to do it on a budget or on the cheap. Hell, I don't buy new cars (my newest is a 2011) so I figure I don't mind splurging when it comes to this. And I'll be supporting American businesses too!

So I've been looking at the 440source website and salivating over the stroker kits. I'm contemplating the 512 kit. Then add a set of their Stealth aluminum heads. It looks like it'd have around 11.3:1 compression, which I know is too high for pump gas normally, but with the aluminum heads would be ok, no? I know it'd be overkill for a mild build, but hey, sometimes you just want to do something because you can right?? And performance aside, I like the idea of getting new crank, pistons, rods and also the weight savings of the aluminum heads.

It looks like they have just about everything on their site that goes into an engine. I like the idea that I could consult with them and have them provide me with parts that are well matched. They only have Competition cams and valve train stuff but is there that much different from one brand to the next for a given application? If others have dealt with them and would like to sharetheir experience I'd be happy for it.

As a general rule, do engine shops mind people bringing their own parts? Or do they frown on that because of potential issues with said parts (and that maybe they like to make some of their money off supplying the parts).

 

[WissaMan]

Past that, do NOT go to the bottom of the parts catalog to choose cams and such. Better to stay more toward the middle, usually, by observation. Wisdom from my machine shop operative.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. When you say the "bottom" do you mean in price?

 

[FURYGT]

11.3:1 is too high for today's pump gas IMHO. You might get away with a 10.5:1 C/R on 93 octane pump gas with aluminum heads.

What you are talking about with a 512 stroker kit is going to cost you in the area of $10k with someone else doing the work on the engine if you want it done right. I know this because I have a professionally built 520" stroker. You also need to be careful what parts you buy. You have a heavy car so you are going to what a torque monster vs. a high HP engine IF you end up going with a stroker so things like cam selection are very important as is how well the heads flow.

Also, the stroker is going to run hotter than a stock 440 and depending on C/R, cam selection etc. you may find that you really wish that you had not gone this route due to driveability, low MPG etc. In addition, to maximize performace with a stroker most people run a lower rear gear which ups the RPM at cruising speed, which limits highway travel and causes the engine to run hotter because you are running at a higher RPM.

There are other things to consider. Cooling system will need to be upgraded, will the transmission hold up with the extra power, what torque converter should you use etc.

If you are going to Carlisle, find me and let's talk as I have a stock appearing pump gas 520" in my 68 Sport Fury and I have a radical, race spec 493" in the Flyin' Whale ('66 Chrysler 300).

 

[WissaMan]

I do plan to be at Carlisle this year. HOPEFULLY with the 68 300 two-door w/ the 4-speed, IF I get the title and plate before then . If not, then with this 300 vert. I'd love to find you and chat you up. Which car do you plan on bringing?

Some of those things, like cooling, I hadn't given too much though to yet. But I would be looking for a torque monster vs. the screamer.

 

[FURYGT]

I do plan to be at Carlisle this year. HOPEFULLY with the 68 300 two-door w/ the 4-speed, IF I get the title and plate before then . If not, then with this 300 vert. I'd love to find you and chat you up. Which car do you plan on bringing?

Some of those things, like cooling, I hadn't given too much though to yet. But I would be looking for a torque monster vs. the screamer.

I plan to be in the C Body Modified class with the Flyin' Whale, a '66 Chrysler 300, Spanish Red with a black top. If I end up bringing something else I will post in the Carlisle 2020 thread.

 

[twostick]

Thanks everyone for all the insight and assistance! Like one of you said, it will probably be a combination of all 3.

In answer to some of the various questions asked...

The 68 engine has just a tick over 100k. Both the 73 and 74 engines are in 68 Chryslers right now so I assume they should just drop right in, or at the very least, the required hardware is in the other cars.

I'm not saying money is no object, but I'm definitely not trying to do it on a budget or on the cheap. Hell, I don't buy new cars (my newest is a 2011) so I figure I don't mind splurging when it comes to this. And I'll be supporting American businesses too!

So I've been looking at the 440source website and salivating over the stroker kits. I'm contemplating the 512 kit. Then add a set of their Stealth aluminum heads. It looks like it'd have around 11.3:1 compression, which I know is too high for pump gas normally, but with the aluminum heads would be ok, no? I know it'd be overkill for a mild build, but hey, sometimes you just want to do something because you can right?? And performance aside, I like the idea of getting new crank, pistons, rods and also the weight savings of the aluminum heads.

It looks like they have just about everything on their site that goes into an engine. I like the idea that I could consult with them and have them provide me with parts that are well matched. They only have Competition cams and valve train stuff but is there that much different from one brand to the next for a given application? If others have dealt with them and would like to sharetheir experience I'd be happy for it.

As a general rule, do engine shops mind people bringing their own parts? Or do they frown on that because of potential issues with said parts (and that maybe they like to make some of their money off supplying the parts).

Just choose the kit with the 27cc dish piston. Depending on what head you choose, you can get your compression ratio low enough into the 9's that it will run on 87 Regular with good quench.

At the end of the day the only extra cost of adding 68 cubic inches to a 440 build is not much more than the price of the new crank, $750. A PROPER build would require the rods to be resized and new rod bolts installed which puts a large dent in the $600 a new set of H beam rods cost so the net upcharge should be about $1200ish. No better bang for your buck exists than that.

Kevin

 

[CBODY67]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. When you say the "bottom" do you mean in price?

For example, in camshaft listings, the "small" stuff is at the top, progressing to the "BIG" stuff at the bottom of the page. Everybody typically likes BIG numbers on lift, duration, etc., when what's more in the middle of the page can usually work better and be easier to live with on a daily basis. Same with carbs, intake manifolds, headers, and othe rthings, usually.

CBODY67

 

[CBODY67]

Bringing your own parts into a machine shop? Some get a little frown-ified at that. You CAN bring them the parts list of what you desire, though, and let them get it all. Reason? If YOU bring your own stuff, then if something goes wrong, it's YOUR place to make it right, ASAP. If THEY get it, when something might go wrong (for whatever reason), then THEY call the supplier and get things handled very quickly as THEY are in control of things. With THEM in control, THEY feel better about things happening as they should, usually. So discuss that with them. See if they can pull up the desired items online and look at them, up front. They might know of something better for less money, too.

As for the alleged orientation that an aluminum head can have a higher mechanical compression ratio than an iron head, due to the heat sink issues . . . from my experiences, that's not completely true.

IF you're going to justify the stroker kit just to get a new crank, don't forget that new cranks might be available from SCAT, possibly with new rods. I would hope that an advantage of the 440Source kit would be that the rotating assy will come balanced together. Also consider that Chrysler B/RB pistons are very heavy, especially with the heavy/thick piston pin. Might score some lighter weight Ross pistons that pretty much match the 440Source items? Then get the crank "knife-edged", too. Less rotating weight can put more power through the flexplate.

I seem to get the impression that you're desiring this "big inch build" for the ownership experience and status of such? All well and good, BUT don't build something that you might desire to be different in a few years, when oil prices increase and put a damper on driving expenses. IF it's very streetable/drivable, should the need to sell it occur, it shoudl be easier to sell quicker, I suspect.

So far, you're just talking about the engine, but IF the engine gets a power upgrade situation, THEN you'll probably need a similar upgrade for the TorqueFlite too. Which might also result in rear spring alterations so you can better plant all of that torque to the pavement. Can't forget brakes, either. One thing leads to another.

Here's another possibility, which will not be as sexy as a 512 stroker motor. Do a 440HP-equivalent build, but with the compression ratio more like 9.5 or so, with heads that will work well at 2000rpm and at 5500rpm, as will the cam and intake. THEN put one of the newer OD-automatics behind that. IF you're wanting lots of torque to the rear tires for acceleration, consider this. With your 3-speed 727 and the normal 3.23 rear axle in the 300s, 2.45x3.23x2.1 converter torque factor = 16.618 tprqie mltiplication factor as you move the throttle off-idle. With the typical 6 or 8-speed automatic, using s 3.55 rear axle to compensate for the OD ratios on the highway, the numbers would be 4.50x3.55x2.1=33.547 torque multiplication when yiou move the throttle off-idle.

The 3.23 ratio with P225/75R-15 tires will run about 25mph/1000rpms, with your current combination, approximately. 3000rpm = 75mph, which is not bad. With the OD and 3.55, it would be about a 2.42 axle ratio, which would mean you'd need some sort of EFI to run the lower rpms at normal highway speeds, but with a 3.91, and OD, it'd be more like a 2.62 ratio, which is close to the factory 2.76 ratio and about 28mph/1000rpm. So with the OD trans and 3.91s, looks like you'd be putting more starting line torque to the ground (IF you can get the rear suspension and tires to do that) with a normal 440HP-type engine that will also run easily on the highway and also get decent fuel economy on trips. Best of both worlds? AT least that's my theory.

Might need some transmission tunnel work to get the Chrysler 6 or 8-speed OD trans to fit? There are some threads in here on that trans upgrade and hot to make it work without a computer control. I understand the trans adaptor is a little pricey, though.

Your car, your dreams, your desires, YOUR money.
Have fun!
CBODY67