Uncle Tony Points Vs. HEI: An Actual Dyno Test!

I watched the video and read the article.

OK, first... IMHO, however you set the fire off in the combustion chamber, as long as it's a complete ignition, there's no power to be made in one ignition type over another. It's a simple matter of making the gas mixture explode... Power changes with ignition are only made if one of two things are happening. First is a change in timing (obviously) and the other is if there is some reason why one ignition is not providing a good enough spark to fire the mixture.

I don't think that anyone can dispute those facts, but probably someone will. In other words, points will make as much power as any tricked out electronic ignition and vice versa. Same for coils, wires etc. The caveat is "as long as timing is the same and the ignition is complete".

So... Let me dust off an old hat I used to wear and talk about how this test was done. There's something called "measurement uncertainty". In a nutshell, what that amounts to is the accuracy and repeatability of making a measurement. Lot's of things go into figuring that uncertainty out and it's pretty freaking boring crap that used to put me to sleep. Lot's of math etc.

An engine dyno like they used is basically putting some sort of load against an engine and something called a load cell (think of an electronic scale) measures the force applied. Somewhere along the line, while we never got into calibrating engine dynos, we did calibrate load cells all the time and some of those were used in dynos. Long story short, a while ago, I found an ISO spec for engine dynos for manufacturers for a measurement uncertainty of 2% of the reading. Keep in mind that's at a higher level (manufacturing) than the guys with one in the back of an engine shop. So, applying that uncertainty at 400 HP and it's 8 HP....

Now that is just one part of the puzzle. The other part is the distributors. They used 3 of them. While they were set up the same, that could be really subject to some scrutiny. Again, uncertainty comes into play... of the distributor machine that set them up! And then there's the performance of the distributor itself. Did the difference come from the slight differences in the design (note the HEI type big cap) or did it come from any slight deviation in setup.

So, IMHO, what test showed was there was no significant difference between ignitions. I think you could account for the differences with uncertainty in the dyno, the operator and (IMHO) a lot in the distributors themselves (mechanically). But I also say that the test was also not done well as there was no A-B-A type test reported where, for example, distributor A was tested, then distributor B, then A bolted back in and tried again. There also should have environmental (temperature, humidity and barometric pressure) reported on each dyno pull. They did say that it was tried 3 times, but I assume that just meant 3 dyno "pulls" with each combo.

I'd also bet if you ran 3 of the same distributors, (like the GM points type) same type of tests, same setups etc., you'd see the same variance in readings.

Full discloser: I'm a big fan of electronic ignitions. Have been since my Dad bolted an aftermarket transistor ignition to his '63 Newport that my uncle was selling out of his parts warehouse. I think it was a Prestolite unit. (yea, my uncle was partners in a parts warehouse). I just don't like to set points... Period. I also kind of like the techy part of it. My cars run great and I've used the electronic ignitions in one form or another since the early seventies, so I'm good.
 
Thanks for your thoughts on this Big_John. My fist electronic ignition was a Heathkit Capacitive Discharge Ignition kit I built as a kid. I installed it and the results were,,it ran fine. If I remember correctly it still used the points but the current through them was much lower and used only as a signal to the unit. I did see an interesting comment below from a viewer commenting on the video subject I found kinda interesting if true.

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Pinned by Uncle Tony's Garage
Sam Eassa
18 hours ago
Tony, I agree with you. I am an Electrical Engineer and I can explain these results as follows: You will generally have lower contact resistance through a fresh set of points than you will have through the semiconductor switching device typically used in an HEI. This will result in higher peak current through the coil primary and a higher, sharper voltage peak at the secondary. The only advantage of an HEI is that, for street use, it eliminates regular maintenance due to point and rubbing block wear. For racing, fresh, correctly adjusted points are superior and more reliable.
Quote"
 
Thanks for your thoughts on this Big_John. My fist electronic ignition was a Heathkit Capacitive Discharge Ignition kit I built as a kid. I installed it and the results were,,it ran fine. If I remember correctly it still used the points but the current through them was much lower and used only as a signal to the unit. I did see an interesting comment below from a viewer commenting on the video subject I found kinda interesting if true.

Quote"
Pinned by Uncle Tony's Garage
Sam Eassa
18 hours ago
Tony, I agree with you. I am an Electrical Engineer and I can explain these results as follows: You will generally have lower contact resistance through a fresh set of points than you will have through the semiconductor switching device typically used in an HEI. This will result in higher peak current through the coil primary and a higher, sharper voltage peak at the secondary. The only advantage of an HEI is that, for street use, it eliminates regular maintenance due to point and rubbing block wear. For racing, fresh, correctly adjusted points are superior and more reliable.
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Had one of those too!

And I read this guy's comments and yea, I agree that in theory, you could have higher peak current etc. But again, what difference does it make if the mixture is fired?

I do disagree with him by saying he's leaving out the part about the deterioration of the point contact faces.

I also think he's simplifying the "for racing" part. Lot's of times the racing ignition is being depended on to do other tasks like act as a RPM limiter for example. Then there's point bounce etc. Hard to beat a good running HEI type system for that use. It depends on the level of car you are racing but it just makes sense to me.

Even Tony uses one of those god awful giant yellow Accel coils to get more spark and the magneto ignition he speaks of really just starts the nitro cars. They "diesel" from there on and you shut them off by turning off the fuel. LOL.

But if you go back to when the OEMs started using electronic ignitions, it was really done to make the ignition system work better with the emissions requirements. A worn set of points might still run with your '65 slant six, but a '74 New Yorker with a leaner carb and stuff like A/C needed the ignition system to be right all the time and not depend on the local mechanic to set the points every few thousand miles. It made sense at the time and look where it is with the new cars.
 
Yeah...

IMHO, it looks like a decent ignition box with a built in rev limiter, but I wouldn't buy one.

It sounds like some sort of snake oil voodoo BS double talk. First they say that the box isn't as dependent on the Mopar distributor gap variances and then on another page, it goes into how important that gap is for the box to run right.

Then there's the "programable" part. Huh? That could be cool.... But wait... What exactly is being programed and what about this "digital type flywheel"?
 
Here is some of the latest VooDoo. A stand alone fully programmable Distributor you can program the advance curve and vacuum advance from a Bluetooth app from your phone once you set base timing. No external ignition box as it is all self contained in the distributor. For vacuum advance it has a map sensor in the dizzy for reference. Don't think I want one as my stroker ignition was set up by Halifaxhops and will run points.

CLASSIC CAR DISTRIBUTORS YOU CONTROL WITH YOUR SMARTPHONE






 
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Here is some of the latest VooDoo

I saw a couple videos on this I think last year when it was coming out. It's interesting, but I doubt I'll run out and get one anytime soon. I wonder how they're holding up in the real world.
 
I saw a couple videos on this I think last year when it was coming out. It's interesting, but I doubt I'll run out and get one anytime soon. I wonder how they're holding up in the real world.

It amazes me all that electronics is under that cap and how it can deal with all the RF from the sparks under the distributor cap.
 
Meanwhile the Monaco is running just fine on it’s points and condenser purchased from halifaxshops three years ago.
 
Here is some of the latest VooDoo. A stand alone fully programmable Distributor you can program the advance curve and vacuum advance from a Bluetooth app from your phone once you set base timing. No external ignition box as it is all self contained in the distributor. For vacuum advance it has a map sensor in the dizzy for reference. Don't think I want one as my stroker ignition was set up by Halifaxhops and will run points.

CLASSIC CAR DISTRIBUTORS YOU CONTROL WITH YOUR SMARTPHONE







Same application as new vehicles, just packaged into the stock dizzy.
 

I saw a couple videos on this I think last year when it was coming out. It's interesting, but I doubt I'll run out and get one anytime soon. I wonder how they're holding up in the real world.

I bought one last year to replace my old MP distributor.
The cost difference over going to an MSD unit just wasn't that much. The quality is great, cleaned up idle and high speed RPM noticeably.

I run a street tune and a race tune, you can switch in literally seconds.

I use the security lock a lot as well.
 
I bought one last year to replace my old MP distributor.

How many miles have you put on it?

The ability to switch between tunes is very interesting. That seems like something that would be useful in the real world and not just at the track.
 
It is a very interesting unit. My only worry [maybe unfounded] is if it stops working you are really stuck unless you have another dizzy in the trunk.
I like the lock feature too.
 
How many miles have you put on it?

The ability to switch between tunes is very interesting. That seems like something that would be useful in the real world and not just at the track.

Not a lot, maybe 3k miles.
It is really interesting playing with the curve and total advance.
My motor likes all in by 2000 rpm, I get drive spirited without any detonation.
One thing that I found, it anything over mid 40s total in a cruise my engine started to run worse.

I never would have gotten my engine dialed in without this unit.
I'm actually going to use it on another car to set up the best curve I can get, then try to mimic it with springs and vacuum advance.

It is a very interesting unit. My only worry [maybe unfounded] is if it stops working you are really stuck unless you have another dizzy in the trunk.
I like the lock feature too.
Agreed. I left the wiring harness for the box taped up near where it mounted on the firewall.
I plan on making some trips once the a/c is in, will carry a spare box and distributor with me.
My fist go to was MSD, the quality seems to be fading there as well though.
As a side note, the cap and rotor are same as a Chevy points unit, same as some aftermarkets as well.
I like it a lot, would buy another in a heartbeat. Overkill for a daily, but, if you want every bit out of a tune, it makes easier for guys who can, and possible for guys who wouldn't (me).
 
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