1955 Chrysler 300 standard transmission switch-a-roo questions

[Mike McGuire]

Hey There Mopar family,

I'm cloning a 55 Windsor into a 300. The mill I found is a 55' 331 Chrysler apparently hot rodded back in the day with guad 2 bl carbs , and other items. 1 being what looks like an old ford tranny, 3spd with Over Drive. (That's my best guess at what it is anyway). The engine & tranny combo weren't installed in a 300, but I am considering dropping in an A833 (via a 'hot hemi heads' adapter plate), instead of the old ford tranny shown in the pic.


This adapter plate fits A833 trannys for small blocks.

My questions are: (help with any one or more is appreciated)
1. will my 1999 Dodge small V8 truck 5 speed tranny bolt up (is it the same as a A833)?
2. Will it fit under the car? (my reading indicated Elmer C. Kiekhaefer used taxi 3 speed trannys while racing NASCAR in 55 with tese 300 types.), not sure if a 99 truck will fit..
3. is a 1999 truck standard as good as the A833?
4. How much power can it take?
5. any experiences/tips worth sharing?

Many Thanks,
Mike

 

[Davea Lux]

The transmission in the photo appears to be a Ford/Borg Warner T-85 with overdrive. Ford used this transmission which was synchronized on some cars with the 352-390 engines and the transmission held up reasonably well. It has the added benefit of an electrically shifted overdrive so all that is needed to make the overdrive functional is a simple toggle switch arrangement. This was a better choice than the Mopar 3 speeds of the era which were non-sychronized. The adapter currently on the little hemi might work for a Borg Warner 4 speed and likely not much of anything else. (Mopar A-833 is a New Process transmission and I am pretty sure it has a different mount pattern than the Borg Warner.) I would probably stay with the current setup if the engine is going into another Chrysler as it will be a lot less work than trying to adapt a 4-Speed. Usually the center hump will need to be cut out to fit a 4 speed also, unless this car has a manual transmission, pedals and clutch linkage are going to be very hard to find.

Dave

 

[CBODY67]

I believe that the bolt pattern on the back of the early Hemis is the same as the Chrysler "A" and later "LA" motors. Not surprising to find a BW T-85 attached to it. I believe the later T-10 appeared first in the Corvettes and resulted from putting an extra gear in the tailshaft housing area to make the 4-speed T-10.

Might it be better to do a retro-style deal than a 300 clone? The induction system is one giveaway that it's not "factory". The other is the 3spd-OD set-up. Generally, the ODs were not put behind higher power engines as they were designed and optional on the lower power 6-cylinders and "std" V-8 models (usually with 3.73 or 4.10 rear axles). In addition to the toggle switch suggestion, there were factory switches where you could turn the system on and then, at an appropriate speed, back out of the throttle and it would shift into OD. "Passing gear" to kick-down to "direct" could be had at WOT.

The 4x2 induction sys tem can be more trouble than it's worth, keeping it tuned correctly as EACH carb has to be balanced with the others, for best results. Personally, I'd sell that and get a 2x4 set-up for better performance and less maintenance issues.

You might want to do a 300 clone, but anybody that knows anything about those cars can spot it 3 miles away. Better to make it a "period hot rod", which will make it a more "honest" car AND one that won't muddy the waters of the casual enthusiast who believes all they might see to be correct. That's just me. Too often, by observation, when somebody sees a car at a car they believe that what they see is correct, unless they have seen a correct one before, which can also induce information overload of which is correct. I'm not a complete purist, but making sure that the viewing public understands WHAT they are seeing is very important for correct knowledge of what is being displayed. That's just me. Others might differ.

So, I'd recommend making it a "period hot rod" with NO 300 ornamentation of any kind (which will probably be somewhat expensive). One issue might be if the car has the necessary column shift items or if the car has been modified for the floor shift? AND clutch linkage items? Of course, modern-style hydraulic clutches might now be available to make that easier (via the street rod vendors).

Remember, too, that a lot of the older racers used truck tires to stand up to the forces or racing on "dirt" back then.

OR, go a little different direction . . . with a modern Gen III Hemi (with carburetion), 3-speed TF, power disc brakes, etc. Keep it looking stock until you raise the hood. THAT would probably get more admiring looks than any 4x2bbl induction system, I suspect.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[68 4spd Fury]

Regarding your 99 Trans. I'ts either an NV3500 (1500) or NV4500 (2500/3500). Either way, while they'd both handle the load they are physically large, top load units and would require a great deal of modification. Adapting an 833 would be a more practical solution. You could also use the O/D version if you wanted. The original gearing, had a big drop from first to second, (3.09 down to 1.66), I don't have the exact numbers with me. There are aftermarket sources that can get a more close ration set up and still retain the overdrive. Good luck with the project!

 

[Mike McGuire]

The transmission in the photo appears to be a Ford/Borg Warner T-85 with overdrive. Ford used this transmission which was synchronized on some cars with the 352-390 engines and the transmission held up reasonably well. It has the added benefit of an electrically shifted overdrive so all that is needed to make the overdrive functional is a simple toggle switch arrangement. This was a better choice than the Mopar 3 speeds of the era which were non-sychronized. The adapter currently on the little hemi might work for a Borg Warner 4 speed and likely not much of anything else. (Mopar A-833 is a New Process transmission and I am pretty sure it has a different mount pattern than the Borg Warner.) I would probably stay with the current setup if the engine is going into another Chrysler as it will be a lot less work than trying to adapt a 4-Speed. Usually the center hump will need to be cut out to fit a 4 speed also, unless this car has a manual transmission, pedals and clutch linkage are going to be very hard to find.

Dave

Thanks Dave.
I appreciate your response.

A few questions back at you...
do you have a best guess as to what year the T-85 was manufactured? and Would it be 6V or 12V?
The A833 does have a different bolt pattern yet luckily hothemiheads offers a steel adapter plate. I would consider re-using the T-85, if it could take the power of the plant. I'm thinking of some street strip mods, but fattening up the exhaust. Perhaps 400HP at most. I'm not thinking standard factory clone job, more of dirt runner. see pic below, without the lettering and decals, etc.

. thanks again.
Mike

 

[Mike McGuire]

I believe that the bolt pattern on the back of the early Hemis is the same as the Chrysler "A" and later "LA" motors. Not surprising to find a BW T-85 attached to it. I believe the later T-10 appeared first in the Corvettes and resulted from putting an extra gear in the tailshaft housing area to make the 4-speed T-10.

Might it be better to do a retro-style deal than a 300 clone? The induction system is one giveaway that it's not "factory". The other is the 3spd-OD set-up. Generally, the ODs were not put behind higher power engines as they were designed and optional on the lower power 6-cylinders and "std" V-8 models (usually with 3.73 or 4.10 rear axles). In addition to the toggle switch suggestion, there were factory switches where you could turn the system on and then, at an appropriate speed, back out of the throttle and it would shift into OD. "Passing gear" to kick-down to "direct" could be had at WOT.

The 4x2 induction sys tem can be more trouble than it's worth, keeping it tuned correctly as EACH carb has to be balanced with the others, for best results. Personally, I'd sell that and get a 2x4 set-up for better performance and less maintenance issues.

You might want to do a 300 clone, but anybody that knows anything about those cars can spot it 3 miles away. Better to make it a "period hot rod", which will make it a more "honest" car AND one that won't muddy the waters of the casual enthusiast who believes all they might see to be correct. That's just me. Too often, by observation, when somebody sees a car at a car they believe that what they see is correct, unless they have seen a correct one before, which can also induce information overload of which is correct. I'm not a complete purist, but making sure that the viewing public understands WHAT they are seeing is very important for correct knowledge of what is being displayed. That's just me. Others might differ.

So, I'd recommend making it a "period hot rod" with NO 300 ornamentation of any kind (which will probably be somewhat expensive). One issue might be if the car has the necessary column shift items or if the car has been modified for the floor shift? AND clutch linkage items? Of course, modern-style hydraulic clutches might now be available to make that easier (via the street rod vendors).

Remember, too, that a lot of the older racers used truck tires to stand up to the forces or racing on "dirt" back then.

OR, go a little different direction . . . with a modern Gen III Hemi (with carburetion), 3-speed TF, power disc brakes, etc. Keep it looking stock until you raise the hood. THAT would probably get more admiring looks than any 4x2bbl induction system, I suspect.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

Thanks CBody67,

Tranny: - hmmmm if you think the OD 3sp can't handle this hemi, then I may opt for the A833 or other tranny.... I think, at best 400 hp. That said more of a cruiser than a dirt contender. I live on a long dirt road where usually trucks are the only dirt road vehicles. I wonder are all 4 gears weak, or just the 4th OD gear?

I guess 'clone' isn't exactly what I am looking for, more like Kiekhaefer clone, which was stripped on chrome for the most part, floor carpet, etc. So, 'period hot rod works', maybe 'retro rod' (unless that is a violation of terms as well). I probably will not get the dash or seats, but grill and suspension yes. This motor is a requirement, but I think changing to dual quads is doable. I'll probably put aftermarket discs brakes in it as well.

 

[Mike McGuire]

Regarding your 99 Trans. I'ts either an NV3500 (1500) or NV4500 (2500/3500). Either way, while they'd both handle load they are physically large, top load units and would require a great deal of modification. Adapting an 833 would be a more practical solution. You could also use the O/D version if you wanted. The original gearing, had a big drop from first to second, (3.09 down to 1.66), I don't have the exact numbers with me). There aftermarket sources that can get a more close ration set up and still retain the overdrive. Good luck with the project!
View attachment 253441 View attachment 253442

Thanks 68 4spd Fury,

It is a 1500, so NV3500 I suspect, thanks to you.
When you say, "the OD version if you wanted", do you mean the 833 OD or the borg Warner T-85 pictured above?


Thanks again,
Mike

 

[68 4spd Fury]

From 75 on 833's were made as 3 speed w/overdrive. Most mopar's were A body versions w/short tail. Not sure about the truck applications after that. Dodge, (ram) stopped using them in late 80's, continued on for GM a couple years after that.

 

[Davea Lux]

Thanks Dave.
I appreciate your response.

A few questions back at you...
do you have a best guess as to what year the T-85 was manufactured? and Would it be 6V or 12V?
The A833 does have a different bolt pattern yet luckily hothemiheads offers a steel adapter plate. I would consider re-using the T-85, if it could take the power of the plant. I'm thinking of some street strip mods, but fattening up the exhaust. Perhaps 400HP at most. I'm not thinking standard factory clone job, more of dirt runner. see pic below, without the lettering and decals, etc.View attachment 253609 . thanks again.
MikeView attachment 253608

The T-85 with the electric overdrive was produced from '55-'71 and appeared in Packards, AMC, Oldsmobiles, Jeeps, Plymouths ('62-'63), Nash, Studebakers, Buicks, Dodges and others. If you go into the Hemmings archives for 12/2006, there is a good write up on the T-85. All T-85's with electric overdrive were 12v as far as I am aware.

This transmission was used on the 413 Dodge and Plymouth Stage/Max wedge cars in '62-'63 as an alternative to the race ready torque flight. Those engines were putting out well in excess of 400 horses. The torque flight was more reliable and generally faster on the 1/4 mile because of better shift performance, even on into later years when the A-833 four speed was available. The transmission is strong enough to service your small Hemi, just be sure to get rid of any ball and trunnion U-Joints as that was the weak point for power transmission on Mopars of that era. The transmission lives a lot longer with 4.11 or 4.56 gears.

Dave

 

[CBODY67]

The "light weight" 3-spd w/4th gear OD were not built for power, generally, but a way to get more fuel economy. I believe there was a deeper low gear (like a 6-cyl would use) and then 4th gear was .70, with 3rd being 1.00. With a trans that could come behind a wide variety of engines and power/torque amounts, there were usually several different gearsets. The lower-powered would have lower low and 2nd gears, usually, as the higher power engines would have a low gear closer to that of the TF. In fact, the 3-speed that was standard in the '71 Super Bee 383 had gear rations that almost exactly matched those of a TF! So, it's not only the trans series that's important, but what it came behind with relation to both torque capacity and gear ratios in the "reduction gears".

As I recall, 1956 was when Chrysler went to a 12V negative ground electrical system. 1955 C-300s had a 6 volt system.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[Davea Lux]

The "light weight" 3-spd w/4th gear OD were not built for power, generally, but a way to get more fuel economy. I believe there was a deeper low gear (like a 6-cyl would use) and then 4th gear was .70, with 3rd being 1.00. With a trans that could come behind a wide variety of engines and power/torque amounts, there were usually several different gearsets. The lower-powered would have lower low and 2nd gears, usually, as the higher power engines would have a low gear closer to that of the TF. In fact, the 3-speed that was standard in the '71 Super Bee 383 had gear rations that almost exactly matched those of a TF! So, it's not only the trans series that's important, but what it came behind with relation to both torque capacity and gear ratios in the "reduction gears".

As I recall, 1956 was when Chrysler went to a 12V negative ground electrical system. 1955 C-300s had a 6 volt system.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

Dodge Brothers had 12v electrical on their cars in the early 1920's. Towards the end of the 1920's 6v electrical became the standard largely because of the decision by Henry Ford to run that voltage on his cars because it was cheaper.
The Chrysler Imperial was the first modern era Mopar to run 12v in 1953. The rest of the line was converted in '56 as Willis has noted. The Imperial was competing with the Cadillac which which converted 12v in '53

Dave

 

[CBODY67]

Dodge Brothers had 12v electrical on their cars in the early 1920's. Towards the end of the 1920's 6v electrical became the standard largely because of the decision by Henry Ford to run that voltage on his cars because it was cheaper.
The Chrysler Imperial was the first modern era Mopar to run 12v in 1953. The rest of the line was converted in '56 as Willis has noted. The Imperial was competing with the Cadillac which which converted 12v in '53

Dave

There were also full-electric cars pre-1930, too. But mainly for "city" use, back when cities were much smaller in area.

The move to 12V Negative Ground was generally to get a hotter spark for the newer "high compression" engines. With Cadillac (then-Standard of the World) getting it's new Kettering OHV V-8 about that time. Chrysler Corp's product line, back then, almost perfectly-mirrored what GM had. Plymouth = Chevy, Dodge = Pontiac, DeSoto = Oldsmobile, Chrysler = Buick, and Imperial = Cadillac. Plus, everybody was watching what everybody else was doing, back then. The evil "industrial espionage" was more rampant than many would like to admit, I suspect. So Imperial advancing into 12V electrics to match Cadillac was a justified situation.

"12 Volt" got the greater spark energy for the higher compression ratios. "Negative Ground" to make the spark jump in the best direction for firing off the air/fuel mixture for best results.

In the realm of automotive engineering and public perceptions. it's one thing to head toward the "top end" orientation of things, but when some lower-level higher-volume brand did something less expensive and seemed to work just as well, THAT's usually what everybody tended to standardize on. If Ford had 6V electrics, and it worked as well for the average consumer, then others saved money and used 6V electrics, too. Everybody happy. Especially the service station/repair shops who'd keep batteries for customers, in stock. But when it was finally deemed necessary for everybody to move to 12V, there were many reasons and benefits, plus being better.

CBODY67

 

[Mike McGuire]

There were also full-electric cars pre-1930, too. But mainly for "city" use, back when cities were much smaller in area.

The move to 12V Negative Ground was generally to get a hotter spark for the newer "high compression" engines. With Cadillac (then-Standard of the World) getting it's new Kettering OHV V-8 about that time. Chrysler Corp's product line, back then, almost perfectly-mirrored what GM had. Plymouth = Chevy, Dodge = Pontiac, DeSoto = Oldsmobile, Chrysler = Buick, and Imperial = Cadillac. Plus, everybody was watching what everybody else was doing, back then. The evil "industrial espionage" was more rampant than many would like to admit, I suspect. So Imperial advancing into 12V electrics to match Cadillac was a justified situation.

"12 Volt" got the greater spark energy for the higher compression ratios. "Negative Ground" to make the spark jump in the best direction for firing off the air/fuel mixture for best results.

In the realm of automotive engineering and public perceptions. it's one thing to head toward the "top end" orientation of things, but when some lower-level higher-volume brand did something less expensive and seemed to work just as well, THAT's usually what everybody tended to standardize on. If Ford had 6V electrics, and it worked as well for the average consumer, then others saved money and used 6V electrics, too. Everybody happy. Especially the service station/repair shops who'd keep batteries for customers, in stock. But when it was finally deemed necessary for everybody to move to 12V, there were many reasons and benefits, plus being better.

CBODY67

This is really good stuff.

 

[68 4spd Fury]

Thanks 68 4spd Fury,

It is a 1500, so NV3500 I suspect, thanks to you.
When you say, "the OD version if you wanted", do you mean the 833 OD or the borg Warner T-85 pictured above?


Thanks again,
Mike

Either one really. Parts are plentiful for the 833, not sure about the Borg unit. Reading the other posts it looks like T85 would handle what you want to do, (and you already have it, that's a plus). Is your car still set up for column shift or has a hole been cut in the floor?

 

[Mike McGuire]

Either one really. Parts are plentiful for the 833, not sure about the Borg unit. Reading the other posts it looks like T85 would handle what you want to do. Is your car still set up for column shift or has a hole been cut in the floor?

It is currently push button automatic. Haven't dropped/hanged a clutch in it yet. Next steps include cracking open the T-85 to have a look. Thanks for your help.

 

[Mike McGuire]

The T-85 with the electric overdrive was produced from '55-'71 and appeared in Packards, AMC, Oldsmobiles, Jeeps, Plymouths ('62-'63), Nash, Studebakers, Buicks, Dodges and others. If you go into the Hemmings archives for 12/2006, there is a good write up on the T-85. All T-85's with electric overdrive were 12v as far as I am aware.

This transmission was used on the 413 Dodge and Plymouth Stage/Max wedge cars in '62-'63 as an alternative to the race ready torque flight. Those engines were putting out well in excess of 400 horses. The torque flight was more reliable and generally faster on the 1/4 mile because of better shift performance, even on into later years when the A-833 four speed was available. The transmission is strong enough to service your small Hemi, just be sure to get rid of any ball and trunnion U-Joints as that was the weak point for power transmission on Mopars of that era. The transmission lives a lot longer with 4.11 or 4.56 gears.

Dave

Well, if I have to put 4.56 gears in the back, so be it, there are worse fates.
I realize the 727 is superior, however I love the feel & response of a standard transmission more. And it's a millennial anti-theft device ta boot.
Thanks for your help,
Mike

 

[Mike McGuire]

There were also full-electric cars pre-1930, too. But mainly for "city" use, back when cities were much smaller in area.

The move to 12V Negative Ground was generally to get a hotter spark for the newer "high compression" engines. With Cadillac (then-Standard of the World) getting it's new Kettering OHV V-8 about that time. Chrysler Corp's product line, back then, almost perfectly-mirrored what GM had. Plymouth = Chevy, Dodge = Pontiac, DeSoto = Oldsmobile, Chrysler = Buick, and Imperial = Cadillac. Plus, everybody was watching what everybody else was doing, back then. The evil "industrial espionage" was more rampant than many would like to admit, I suspect. So Imperial advancing into 12V electrics to match Cadillac was a justified situation.

"12 Volt" got the greater spark energy for the higher compression ratios. "Negative Ground" to make the spark jump in the best direction for firing off the air/fuel mixture for best results.

In the realm of automotive engineering and public perceptions. it's one thing to head toward the "top end" orientation of things, but when some lower-level higher-volume brand did something less expensive and seemed to work just as well, THAT's usually what everybody tended to standardize on. If Ford had 6V electrics, and it worked as well for the average consumer, then others saved money and used 6V electrics, too. Everybody happy. Especially the service station/repair shops who'd keep batteries for customers, in stock. But when it was finally deemed necessary for everybody to move to 12V, there were many reasons and benefits, plus being better.

CBODY67

Thanks! Next quest is to find a wiring diagram for the tranny. I imagine there must be some somewhere...

 

[68 4spd Fury]

It is currently push button automatic. Haven't dropped/hanged a clutch in it yet. Next steps include cracking open the T-85 to have a look. Thanks for your help.

I saw the clutch pedal, thought it was the original set up.

 

[Mike McGuire]

I saw the clutch pedal, thought it was the original set up.

The one in the picture, is one of the 56 Chrysler 300's used to win Nascar. It is in The Henry Ford museum in Dearborn Michigan. It has the look/feel I am striving for. I think they just added an extra brake pedal as the clutch pedal, but I am not sure. It looks like it though. Note glove box signed by driver.

 

[68 4spd Fury]

The one in the picture, is one of the 56 Chrysler 300's used to win Nascar. It is in The Henry Ford museum in Dearborn Michigan. It has the look/feel I am striving for. I think they just added an extra brake pedal as the clutch pedal, but I am not sure. It looks like it though. Note glove box signed by driver.

Thanks for clarifying.