2nd time in three years

70NPORT

Old Man with a Hat
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2ND time in three years on the back of a tow truck.
Today we didn't make it back under our own power. Its the ignition system, but what part of it I still can't determine. One minute its fine, the next it will not start for anything...just like that, no warning.....apparently the starter is not seeing full voltage (to fully engage). It is an absolutely random thing. Strangely, when a no start event occurs, I notice it is always accompanied by a slight "click" sound which seems to originate somewhere within the dashboard...which does not occur otherwise. The battery, batt cables, starter, starter relay, NSS....the ignition switch, and key cylinder in the steering column have all been confirmed working properly and/or replaced. Sooo what else is left ? I do not believe this is voltage drop or resistance issue as this happens randomly and without warning, cold or hot no rhyme or reason that I can discover thus far.

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That sucks.. Sorry Gary! I know the feeling though. Nothing worse then seeing them loaded up onto the hauler. This electrical thing has gotta be driving you nuts!!

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Just armchair troubleshooting...you might have a dead spot on the starter armature. Have you tried jumping the starter? Redneck way with a screwdriver. Have you tried starting in neutral...or reverse or drive?
 
Check the voltage at the starter when this happens.

When you went through this problem a couple weeks ago, did you change the starter? Is it a new starter? It sounds to me like either a bad solenoid in the starter or a bad contact within the starter. "Clicking" could be the sound of the solenoid pulling the starter into the ring gear but with a bad contact, the starter won't turn.

It really sounds to me like the starter is the issue.
 
Man, that sucks. After everything you went through. It's crap like this that makes one think about taking up knitting instead.
 
Just armchair troubleshooting...you might have a dead spot on the starter armature. Have you tried jumping the starter? Redneck way with a screwdriver. Have you tried starting in neutral...or reverse or drive?
Hey Bob. The starter has been tested outside of the car and works beautifully. Yesterday morning while running around town on errands it was turning over without any effort..barely twist the key, which always puts a smile on my face. Yesterday afternoon while I was stuck I tried just about everything in the book I could think of that has worked in the past, including jumping the starter relay terminals. I also had bent up a piece of thick wire that would allow me to jump the terminals right on the starter itself. Nothing..just the solenoid "click". NSS is working properly..when the car will start that is. Some item or device in the "start" circuit is intermittently malfunctioning. I had no problems with the car up and until yesterday afternoon in front of the damn gas pumps.
 
Hey Bob. The starter has been tested outside of the car and works beautifully. Yesterday morning while running around town on errands it was turning over without any effort..barely twist the key, which always puts a smile on my face. Yesterday afternoon while I was stuck I tried just about everything in the book I could think of that has worked in the past, including jumping the starter relay terminals. I also had bent up a piece of thick wire that would allow me to jump the terminals right on the starter itself. Nothing..just the solenoid "click". NSS is working properly..when the car will start that is. Some item or device in the "start" circuit is intermittently malfunctioning. I had no problems with the car up and until yesterday afternoon in front of the damn gas pumps.

Yep, it's the starter.
 
Check the voltage at the starter when this happens.

When you went through this problem a couple weeks ago, did you change the starter? Is it a new starter? It sounds to me like either a bad solenoid in the starter or a bad contact within the starter. "Clicking" could be the sound of the solenoid pulling the starter into the ring gear but with a bad contact, the starter won't turn.

It really sounds to me like the starter is the issue.
Yea, the starter is about 1-2wks old. Brand new RIGHT out of the box. I believe this is occurring because there is not enough voltage to the starter when the key is turned. The "clicking" is the solenoid yes, but I swear there is also "something" happening behind the dashboard when this event occurs....a click or something that sounds sort of like the turn signal blinker. Might there be another electromechanical device back there.....that is part of the start circuit? The FSM (nor Chiltons) does not show anything of the sort. Jeez, this feels like a wild goose chase.
 
Just my .02 but do where do you have your ground from the battery and from the engine? I would make sure that you have the ground from the battery to the block and where you place the ground knock off any paint where the cable is so you know you have a good ground. I would even tap the threads just to make sure. Then have a ground from the starter to the chassis then one more the the firewall. It may have nothing to do with what your problem is right now but I have see way too many times this actually help keep many problems from ever becoming issues. Most people do not have a proper ground system and this will hurt the overall performance and life of the electrical system. This is actually why most people have issues.
 
I hate to bring this up again.
Should we be thinking about the fusible link?
yes, I know. I know. But..........

BTW, that "mysterious click"? It's the Key-In Buzzer I bet. Remove it and see if the click is still there.
 
Just my .02 but do where do you have your ground from the battery and from the engine? I would make sure that you have the ground from the battery to the block and where you place the ground knock off any paint where the cable is so you know you have a good ground. I would even tap the threads just to make sure. Then have a ground from the starter to the chassis then one more the the firewall. It may have nothing to do with what your problem is right now but I have see way too many times this actually help keep many problems from ever becoming issues. Most people do not have a proper ground system and this will hurt the overall performance and life of the electrical system. This is actually why most people have issues.
Yea, just bare metal where the battery ground contacts the eng block. The block itself is grounded to the body via a ground strap on the back of it. The starter motor is grounded by the very fact it is installed and in complete contact with the block.....ALTHOUGH after all this crap I might just go ahead and add a ground strap there also...why not at this point.
 
I hate to bring this up again.
Should we be thinking about the fusible link?
yes, I know. I know. But..........

BTW, that "mysterious click"? It's the Key-In Buzzer I bet. Remove it and see if the click is still there.
The original fusible link melted one fine day in autumn (the first time on a tow truck). I replaced it with a home made piece using as much of the same "chrysler" type parts as possible. As it stands now it appears to be intact and undisturbed. The original one completely melted due to a short on the other side of the engine.

So you feel its the key in buzzer emitting the click sound? This sound only occurs when the key is turned to the "start" position. And it does not happen when/if the car starts.
 
It would be good if you could do a voltage drop test while starting the car to see what the battery voltage drops down to while cranking. It sounds to me like you have a starter that is intermitentally giving you problems. I would also double check the connection at the starter on both the battery cable and the start signal from the relay. Also do a continuity check on the start wire from the relay to the solenoid to see if there is any resistance on that wire.
 
So you feel its the key in buzzer emitting the click sound? This sound only occurs when the key is turned to the "start" position. And it does not happen when/if the car starts.
Exactly my point. It will take you less than a minute to pull it and see.
 
Starter armature needs put on a growler if the starter / alt shop looks at you funny go find another the armature has a open in it, yes brand new, this is a good time to update to new perm magnet style. My .02
 
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