3 serial numbers on 440 block?

Engine, Transmission & Driveline

  1. slippery

    slippery New Member

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    Hi all . im new here. And i'd like any advice on this? Im looking at buying a 68 440 block . But it has a bit of a mess on id pad at the starter opening. 1 picture is my drawing of what cant be well read on actual block. 2 numbers are the same. The one is X'd out. the other is not X'd out but in different font style of punch. These 2 same numbers are (2390) one day before the date that is stamped on the top engine id pad , next to distributor D 440 (1968)

    2 13 (february 13)

    The second X'd out number is february 1st
    2379.

    I got dates from maxwedge.com converter.

    I have a few theories. Lol. Stupid criminal.?

    An apprentice at factory screwed up 1st number and tried to " squeeze" in the correct number afterwards? Cause it seems the same punch size and font? Or,

    Later one guy decided to make it very clear which of the 2 originals was correct.?

    What do you guys think? What could have happened here? Would any of you buy a block like this?

    20200211_163126.jpg

    20200202_192231.jpg
     
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  2. detmatt

    detmatt Old Man with a Hat FCBO Gold Member

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    More importantly, what’s the overall condition of it? Standard bore? What’s been done to it in the past? Rotate freely with a breaker bar?
     
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  3. 69monaco

    69monaco Senior Member

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    440engine3.jpg
    440engine4.jpg
     
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  4. commando1

    commando1 Old Man With a Hat on the Porch FCBO Gold Member

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    Weird.
     
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  5. Samplingman

    Samplingman Senior Member

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    I think VINs didn’t start appearing on blocks until ‘69. It looks like some attempt was made to stamp the VIN. But as @detmatt implies, the condition is more important as a block that you will use in an apparently non-numbers matching car. My ‘70 vert project has a freshly rebuilt ‘69 motor, seems a lot of C’s are restored that way.
     
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  6. cbarge

    cbarge World Famous Barge in a Budget FCBO Gold Member

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    I would be more concerned about overall condition of the motor to hell with the numbers.
    But If you want to play the gumbers natching game;
    A February build would have had a VON stamped on the back of the motor right below the oil pressure sender or the rim of the bell housing.That will tell you what car it came out of.
    Eai6bWXeqyZx1JF03aBC7lf-Q3Wv6p8qZ8Dl9Z9ZP2WzVSF-i1B2fRMG5Fzsx7vfBct0pYfdGamy4Gtgwxr5jrJsjrDDgdvF.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  7. BIGBARNEYCARS

    BIGBARNEYCARS Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    How does all this Punching and Stamping go together with the casting date on the right side if the block? Who really cares 'cept G.G. and only he enjoys Peein' into the wind. Ah '69 block will get you a Thick Wall and a Forged Crank. What else you need to know? If it 's not a Daytona what difference does it make? Just sayin', Jer
     
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  8. cbarge

    cbarge World Famous Barge in a Budget FCBO Gold Member

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    Nothing,actually.
    Being mass produced,the unwritten rule of thumb is from casting date to assembly and then put into a vehicle is 3 months.
    Engine plants may or may not be in the same building or town as the assembly plant,so to speak.
    BUT
    It has been seen before where short blocks sat for over a year before assembly and at last minute then given a VON (vehicle order number) or VIN
    Also seen engines for example a 72 340 Demon # matching but has a 71 cast date block,71 crank but has '72 lo-compression pistons.
    The assembled date stampings and VIN concurs with the build date of the car.
    Not uncommon for them to use up leftover parts.
    Ditto late build cars have newer parts for next model year.
    My buddy has a late build 74 Charger..So late in fact it has a 75 gas tank.

    In this hobby never say never unless you are Galen Govier.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
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  9. kyle340

    kyle340 Active Member

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    I agree with cbarge, these were mass produced throw away cars so anything is possible when it comes to these cars and parts .I had a 69 340 engine out of a dart gts, had the full Vin on the pad, but on the front of the block where the engine size is stamped it had 318 stamped into it, I guess someone caught it cause 340 was stamped over it.
     
  10. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Old Man with a Hat FCBO Gold Member

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    www.moparts.org has a tech archive that explains mopar engine serial numbers, starting with '68 production:
    Sample: PT 440 2865 0001, next to starter opening.
    PT is the code for the Trenton engine plant, 2865 is the Julian date basted on the 10,000 day calendar, 0001 is the first engine produced on that day. None of these numbers directly relate to the type car the engine was installed in.

    Except as noted in the previous post, most of the engines that have partial VIN numbers have them located on the pan rail on the opposite side of the engine, example VIN: PH23TOD100001,
    P=Plymouth
    H=Hard Top
    2= 2dr
    3= Price Class
    T= 440, 350HP
    0= Year of Production, 1970
    D= Production Plant (Belvidere)
    100001= Sequence number starting at 100k.

    The last 8 digits will normally appear on the pan rail 0D100001. The last 8 digits should match the last 8 digits of the VIN. Sample attached.
    Warranty engines are known to have the full VIN stamped on the block by the dealer, but policy varied from dealer to dealer. As far as the serial number on your '68 engine is concerned, I have never seen one stamped and re-stamped like that. Check the casting date for the engine to be sure it actually is a '68 engine, check the assembly date on the machined pad opposite the distributor. Also check the casting number to be sure the engine is a 440, not someone's fake. I am suspicious of this engine.

    Dave

    VIN Engine.JPG
     
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  11. 70bigblockdodge

    70bigblockdodge Old Man with a Hat FCBO Gold Member

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    69 engine will have complete VIN.

    I learned that on Graveyard cars!

    My only 69 engine has whole VIN.
     
  12. 69CoronetRT

    69CoronetRT Senior Member

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    I’d say no big deal. Someone could have forgotten to reset the stamping machine. Interesting but meaningless.
     
  13. 69CoronetRT

    69CoronetRT Senior Member

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    VINs can be found on 68s. I have one example of a 8G103 VIN meaning they started at the beginning of the year. Not all plants stamped the VINs all year. Variations exist.
     
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  14. 69CoronetRT

    69CoronetRT Senior Member

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    that’s a partial VIN , not the VON.
     
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  15. 69CoronetRT

    69CoronetRT Senior Member

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    Blocks don’t get stamped with VONs....

    Your example would be totally correct. One should expect to see a 71 block and crank with low compression pistons in a 72 model car if the car was built from August to January ish......
     
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  16. 69CoronetRT

    69CoronetRT Senior Member

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    Early cars will. You start to see plants going from all 13 characters in the VIN to 8 in about mid January. That’s one way to tell if a block has been restamped. Dummies put the full VIN on a late built car..
     
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  17. 70bigblockdodge

    70bigblockdodge Old Man with a Hat FCBO Gold Member

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    Now I learned more, Thanks.
     
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  18. The Goose

    The Goose Senior Member

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    Non issue if it’s a good block and internals I just see some grinding in your future.

    PS after it’s blank leave it blank.
     
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  19. cbarge

    cbarge World Famous Barge in a Budget FCBO Gold Member

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    My example is real. 1972 Demon 340. April 1972 build date. Engine is April 1971..

    340Demon 011.JPG
    4779499_6804386394924908544_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ohc=4T4DvLL61zUAX-VAQI_&_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.jpg
     
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  20. slippery

    slippery New Member

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    Yes from my searching, in 69 it was fully implemented but in early 68 there are few and later 68 there were sporadic and in different locations. But that is all about v.i.n. numbers being stamped on engines. This engine has no v.i.n. stamped anywhere.
    What is shown in picture here, are the engine serial numbers. Not v.i.n. numbers Which i assume go further back than 1968 even. Info from these numbers are plant it was made. then cubic inches.then one letter for low or high compression or premium fuel. Then next 4 numbers are 10,000 day julian calendar, that show date of engine assembly. The last 4 numbers are the sequence number. Or which number of your engine was made that day.
    On 68 blocks ive seen, there isnt even a raised i.d. pad on passenger side center, just above oil pan rail. Which seems to be where most 69 , 70,71 etc. Are located on a raised pad. One person said his 68 had it on back top next to oil pressure sending unit along the flange edge that meets tranny bell housing.