440 Block checks out for Stroker build.

Engine, Transmission & Driveline

  1. Turboomni

    Turboomni Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Ok the block is good my machinist says and is good to go for the stroker project.
    Big thanks to polarus who sold me the block.
    The machinist /engine builder wants to meet with me next week to discuss the build.
    I had called him last fall to see if he was interested. I told him at the time I was considering getting a 440 and having it stroked to over 500 cubic inches. I told him I would like much more torque at the lower rpms with a max rpms around 5000 to 5500. It will keep the 3.23 rear end [with an added sure grip] so I can go down the highway with ease but have the grunt to launch all of that 69 Fury III and gear ratio with real authority. I specified I want rather high vacuum and maybe a slight lope but nothing to suggest I am a Cuda wanna be. I then said I want the engine to look stock with HP exhaust manifolds,,Would you be interested in such a project ?
    A slight pause and he said "Absolutely"
    So my plan is so far to present to him is mostly from 440 Source as they have been in business for a long time. I am not obviously cutting any new ground here and it is a rather conservative build.
    440 Source 512 crank rods and pistons,440 Source Stealth heads as they look like stock heads and accommodate HP manifolds but flow much better than iron heads out of the box.
    Also the better chamber design and better heat dissipation of aluminum. I plan on no more than 10 to 1 or slightly less in case pump gas octane tanks in the future. I plan at first to run the 1973 mopar intake [which I hear is superior to the 1969 intake] that was for a Thermoquad carb when modified a bit..[My buddies are pushing for a six pack] As far as cam goes ,I am leaning towards a roller if I can find the right one for my needs. I will not be running the crap out of it at high rpms ,so maybe safer,, and I like the quick ramp speed and closing of them with maybe longer exhaust duration to help my HP exhaust manifolds. Also no more zinc needed. I am considering Hughes cams . Valve train I really don't want much more than stock on valve lift and maybe use the stock rockers?? Anyways the reason for this post is this,,any advise on my choices and or what to specify to my engine builder on this build? I have a few days and can go in any time next week to speak with him. Any advice/thoughts would be great. I know this is a huge can of worms but WTF,,it's crunch time!!!
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
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  2. twostick

    twostick Senior Member

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    Well let's see now...

    Pretty good plan. A few minor tweaks if it was mine.

    No personal experience with the Stealth heads but a good choice for your plan from what I've heard. Nothing special about the combustion chamber tho. Like all the other companies, it's straight out of a 58 Desoto. It is what it is. Make sure you have them disassembled and checked for guide clearance and at least have a real multi angle valve job done. OOTB valve jobs are notoriously terrible no matter who's head you're buying. I've seen reports of the valve seat inserts protruding if you will into the ports a little so a little clean up in the bowls is money well spent too. Those 2 things will get them to flow pretty close to advertised numbers.

    It sounds like you're going for the stock look but if it's not a deal breaker, the Trick Flow 240 head gets rave reviews for quality control and making more power per $ than any other head in that market.

    Have the block squared and zero decked. A .039 thick head gasket and a closed chamber head like the Stealth will have good quench and discourage detonation. They usually recommend the 1009 Felpro but chances are it will overhang into the bore because of the huge chamfer at the top on most 440's. I had to use the garden variety one that comes in the basic Felpro kit to get both 039 thick and a big enough gasket bore in the same gasket. Their other so called good gasket with the larger bore is over .050 thick. Goodbye quench.

    Camshaft... I wouldn't thank you for what passes for hydraulic rollers for big block Chryslers. They won't rev because they weigh a ton, oiling issues fitment issues, it seems like an awful lot of $$$ and hassle for next to no real world benefit. Those aggressive ramps you're after are great if you're chasing that last 10 HP but they beat the crap out of the valve train and are almost as noisy as a solid lifter cam. Give Dwayne Porter a call and tell him exactly what you are building, car and application wise and he will spec you a flat tappet that you will be happy with for the next 150,000 miles. He is a Comp Cams distributor and can get you a custom grind for your application without breaking the bank.

    I run 15/40 Rotella on all my flat tappet stuff. My machinist builds world class 2.5 liter and 350 racing hydroplane engines. No rollers allowed and they run 7200 for however long it takes to make 5 laps on a mile course. His oil of choice is Valvoline 15/40. No oil related failures.

    6 Pak would be cool but I think the manifold is pretty borderline smallish and a challenge to tune if you aren't blessed with the carburetor guru gene.

    The money you didn't spend on the roller will go a long way towards buying a throttle body EFI. Holley Sniper gets great reviews and is self learning if you keep the camshaft reasonable. If you don't have a carb etc already it's close to a wash money wise. When I built mine I was planning on a 6pak but EFI was pretty much the same money in the end so EFI it was. I used an M1 single plane I got from the scratch and dent aisle at Summit for about $150 I think. With 500+ cubes, you won't miss the bit of bottom end torque you give up with a single plane.

    After all that rambling you should easily be low 500's in the horsepower dept and 600 and change for torque. Torque will peak at 4000 rpm, maybe less depending on the cam and the horsepower will peak at just over 5000-5200 ish.

    Kevin
     
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  3. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    There have been a lot of reliability issues with the roller cams in RB series engines for street use. The cross links fail, the roller turns and you have a wiped cam instantly. You can spend a ton of money to put in keyed roller assemblies which involve a bunch of expensive machine work, but your horsepower gain will not be worth the expense as compared to a good flat tappet cam. With a stroker at 512 or greater you will also have a lot more reciprocating motion on the lower end which results in more wear shorter engine life, something to consider if this is going to be a daily driver. The other issue will be fuel consumption. Big cam + big cubes = lots of fuel. You will be lucky to get 5 mpg with a carb on this engine. To help mitigate that problem, you should seriously think about injection to bring that number back up. No fun to have a monster if you can not afford to drive it.

    These are some things to talk to your engine builder about, twostick had some good points also.

    Dave
     
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  4. FURYGT

    FURYGT Senior Member

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    Most of the MOPAR drag racers that I have raced with in the SuperCar Racers stock appearing, stock tire drag racing series use Dwayne Porter (in VT or NH) for head work and he can probably help with a cam selection.

    As we discussed, I am happy to put you in touch with my "race car mechanic" in CT who has built a lot of stroker engines for the street as well as for the track.

    As discussed, COMPUFLOW in Medina, OH built my stroker. The owner, Nick Wilson sadly has passed but his son still sells stroker kits and may even build engines and do head work. I found this on a Google search:

    MOPAR 535 STROKER KIT WITH BLUEPRINTED BLOCK, DODGE , PLYMOUTH, BIG BLOCK

    Their website is no longer active but as mentioned, my mechanic still deals with the son for stroker kits. I can put you in touch with him and would build your engine if you want and he has a run stand to make sure everything is good after assembly. Found this info on a Google search:

    Compuflow Performance is located at the address 5353 Spieth Rd in Medina, Ohio 44256. They can be contacted via phone at (330) 725-7591 for pricing, hours and directions.

    I have no personal experience with 440 source but have heard about quality issues with some of the items that they sell that are made overseas such as big block aluminum water pump housings.

    On oil, one choice IMHO. Penn Grade, formally Brad Penn oil. A synthetic blend designed for both our original engines and for modified or stroked engines.
     
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  5. Turboomni

    Turboomni Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Thanks guys for your input. I can see there is huge amount of knowledge and experience here which I am lacking. I see this name Dwayne Porter mentioned alot ,a few times in this topic and elsewhere. He must be very very good. How and where to get in touch with him?
     
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  6. twostick

    twostick Senior Member

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    Porterracing

    As to the 440 Source stuff, I have their 4.15 stroke 493 kit and everything except the rods was checked, verified and used right out of the box.
    The rods I was told up front would need the small ends honed to size to fit the pins and they came as advertised.

    If I had it to do again I would use them. Only change would be 4.25 stroke. More cubes and no extra block work to clearance the rods because of the smaller BBC journal size.

    5 mpg is really pessimistic unless your car is 25,000 lbs and your running some Prostock camshaft specs. My 9:1 493 in a 4800 lb New Yorker was 11 to 12ish with an MP509 cam and 3.23 gears. With the cam spec you have in mind, you should do that easily. Your right foot will be the deciding factor...

    Kevin
     
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  7. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Are you running a carb or a throttle body?

    Dave
     
  8. Turboomni

    Turboomni Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Ok I think the roller cam is off the list and I will call Mr. Porter. That alone will save around 1000.00 and a tappet cam will be much less.
    440 Source also offers lightened cranks for 100 bucks more for their packages. Actually two different lighter cranks. Thoughts on this?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
  9. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    I would want to know how the cranks were lightened. The modern casting techniques have made crankshafts both lighter and stronger due to high tensile steel and better metallurgy. Additional metal to lighten the crank is sometimes removed by grinding or it can be accomplished by changing the mold dimensions to make the throws thinner for example. You would want to go over the technical specs with your builder as to what fits your needs. You are contemplating running a relatively mild street cam, so the lighter crank might not be necessary. For this setup I would suggest going for durability rather than increased top end rpms. But again, this depends a lot on how hard you plan to run this engine. Lightened cranks are appropriate for engines running above 5000 rpms at the expense of having less metal to absorb stress. The lighter cranks are mostly a track item for maximum performance and shorter durability but at lower rpms offer some lower throw weights for a snappier throttle response.

    Dave
     
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  10. polarus

    polarus Senior Member

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    I'm glad to hear that the block checked out, you and I are on the same track so I'll be watching your thread closely. Are you going with EFI or carb.?
     
  11. Turboomni

    Turboomni Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Hey Polarus,thank you for selling me a nice 440!
    Definitely a carb. My present 440 works great on a carb and points so my plan is the same fore the stroker. As far as the lightened crank there are apparently 4 different cranks for the same displacement stroker offered. Here is the descriptions of them.


    [​IMG]
    Home > Crankshafts > 4.250" Stroke Crankshafts


    Item # Image Description Price
    40042506800-6 2001006d.jpg
    Crankshaft

    This crank is popular for doing 512" stroker setups in a low deck 400 block. This crank features the 2.2" (Chevy) smaller and lighter rod journals which allow you to use any off the shelf big block Chevy rods with perfect side clearance. The reduced diameter counterweights allow for easy block clearancing. This crank has the following specs: Stroke: 4.250" / Block Type: B / Main Journal Diameter: 2.625" / Rod Journal Diameter: 2.200" / Rod Journal Width: 2.009" / Pre-Balanced Bobweight: 2300 Grams / Counterweight Diameter: 7.120" / Flange Bolts: 6 x 7/16".
    In Stock
    $749.95

    44042506800-6 2001006d.jpg
    Crankshaft

    This crank is popular for doing 512" stroker setups in an "RB" (413/426/440) block. This crank features the 2.2" (Chevy) smaller and lighter rod journals which allow you to use any off the shelf big block Chevy rods with perfect side clearance. Crank has the following specs: Stroke: 4.250" / Block Type: RB / Main Journal Diameter: 2.750" / Rod Journal Diameter: 2.200" / Rod Journal Width: 2.009" / Pre-Balanced Bobweight: 2400 Grams / Counterweight Diameter: 7.480" / Flange Bolts: 6 x 7/16".
    In Stock
    $749.95

    40042506800-6-LW LWcrank2.jpg
    Ultralight Crankshaft

    Our new 4.250" stroke ultralight crankshafts are great for those 512 stroker motors. Since this combination already uses a lightweight piston, we undercut the crankshaft counterweights and profile the flange into a star shape, which takes about an additional 4 pounds (1800 grams) off this model crank. Click on the "View Additional Images" button on the product page to see more. Although the 512 is a quick revving combination even with a standard crankshaft, this ultralight crank will really make it rev like a streetbike. This crank features the 2.2" (Chevy) smaller and lighter rod journals which allow you to use any off the shelf big block Chevy rods with perfect side clearance. The reduced diameter counterweights allow for easy block clearancing. This crank has the following specs: Stroke: 4.250" / Block Type: B / Main Journal Diameter: 2.625" / Rod Journal Diameter: 2.200" / Rod Journal Width: 2.009" / Pre-Balanced Bobweight: 2300 Grams / Counterweight Diameter: 7.120" / Flange Bolts: 6 x 7/16".
    In Stock
    $899.95

    44042506800-6-LW LWcrank2.jpg
    Ultralight Crankshaft

    Our new 4.250" stroke ultralight crankshafts are great for those 512 stroker motors. Since this combination already uses a lightweight piston, we undercut the crankshaft counterweights and profile the flange into a star shape, which takes about an additional 6.5 pounds (almost 3000 grams) off this model of crank. Click on the "View Additional Images" button on the product page to see more. Although the 512 is a quick revving combination even with a standard crankshaft, this ultralight crank will really make it rev like a streetbike. This crank features the 2.2" (Chevy) smaller and lighter rod journals which allow you to use any off the shelf big block Chevy rods with perfect side clearance. Crank has the following specs: Stroke: 4.250" / Block Type: RB / Main Journal Diameter: 2.750" / Rod Journal Diameter: 2.200" / Rod Journal Width: 2.009" / Pre-Balanced Bobweight: 2400 Grams / Counterweight Diameter: 7.480" / Flange Bolts: 6 x 7/16".
    In Stock
    $899.95
     
  12. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Only 2 of those are 440 cranks, the other 2 are 400. Note that these lightweight shafts have the smaller Chev style rod bearing journals (Big Block) with less bearing surface area. Stock mopar 2.375". chev 2.2". That was part of the reason the the Chevy folks spent so much time sweeping up engine parts, weak lower end.

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
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  13. Turboomni

    Turboomni Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Yes I see that now, my mistake.
    Here is a description of the various 440 and 400 stroker packages.
    Mancini and Hughes and Compuflow I know affers kits also.

    Stroker Kits-440 Source
     
  14. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    I would suggest staying with a stroker kit that maintains the stock rod journal size 2.375", the hefty bearing surface area is one of the reasons that a mopar big block would stay in one piece.

    Dave
     
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  15. twostick

    twostick Senior Member

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    A couple of reasons you might want to reconsider that.

    Big journals equal bigger bearing speeds which translates into frictional losses and somewhat shorter bearing life. Then there is the additional weight and windage.

    Big journals also make the big end of the rod larger. The 4.15 cranks use stock Mopar journals and require the bores to be notched so the rods will clear. Most if not all 4.25 cranks use 2.2" BBC journal size and will drop into a 440 block without any clearance issues with most BBC style rods. Lighter and less windage.

    Kevin
     
  16. twostick

    twostick Senior Member

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    Throttle Body EFI. An ancient by today's standards Holley Commander 950 Pro.

    Kevin
     
  17. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Agreed on a high rpm track engine. This is a mild street build that probably is not going to see much over 4500 rpms. Don't think the bearing speeds are going to be a big issue for street use. Don't know if the OP plans on using a windage tray or not. Probably can save some machining costs with the smaller journal size. I also know that the technology has advanced a lot with the modern strokers so the smaller journals might well hold up better now than what they did on the Chev big blocks. I am thinking more about durability here than balls out performance. Thanks for your input

    Dave
     
  18. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    That was a good system because it was reliable. Figured you must have had an injection system to pull those fuel mileage numbers. I have owned a number of stock 440 Magnum/TNT cars and most of them were in the 10mpg range with moderate foot usage and 3.23 gears. Adding 20 percent to the displacement with a carb and a mild cam on this engine is not going to help those numbers. The 5 mpg I cited might be too low as I did not look up the cam to see if it was going to need a higher stall speed on the convertor, but I doubt it will get more than 7 mpg with a carb. 10-12 mpg is certainly doable with injection and it will no doubt run better. Thanks for your input.

    Dave
     
  19. FURYGT

    FURYGT Senior Member

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    A windage tray is a must IMHO.
     
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  20. polarus

    polarus Senior Member

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    I've got my knife and fork out so I can cut all this information into manageable pieces. Some talented people on this site. I've only done one engine rebuild and that was by the book stock, this is a big learning curve for me. Great stuff.
     
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