69 Fury 727 Auto Repair Hassle!

[Dodgy Dick]

Hello C Body Forum.
I have just had my '69 Fury 111, 318 w/- 727 to my local bush mechanic for an auto trans service. He hasn't seen one of these for yonks but says bands are worn and probably needs rebuild. Please note the car drives forward and changes gear very well but reverse is slow to engage on start up after sitting for a while.
My mechanic wasn't sure how trans came out, ie with engine or separate to engine, dropping torsion bars etc. or ??
I asked him to adjust what he could and stitch it up again until I can research all my options such as pull and repair original trans, fit reco exchange unit or new beefed up Street and Strip aftermarket unit. (or sell Bl*#dy car,) Decisions, Decisions!
Ok, my questions are,
A, Can it be repaired in situ,
B, What is best way to remove trans,
C, Repair original or fit reco or aftermarket unit
I'm sure you all have different ideas but I would love to hear them.
Please also note that my car is no show pony but a rust free 4dr Sedan with original everything including paint and upholstery, uncracked dash and a reputed 58,000 miles but probably more.
Over to you,
Rich
PS Also what does a reverse pattern valve body do?

 

[MoPar Maniac]

Iirc 1st and reverse use the same band. Meaning if 1st works okay but reverse is off there is something else wrong. Imo I would change the fluid and filter before digging into it.
Others with experience will chime in soon.

 

[Xenon]

MoPar Maniac is correct. Remove pan, adjust as per FSM 1/R band, put in new filter,
reinstall pan, fill with fluid....
A reverse pattern valve body is a manual valve body and first and drive are reversed..
It will NOT shift automatically.. Whatever gear you put it in, and whenever you put it in that
gear, THATS the gear it will be in.. So start out in D, then shift into 2, then shift into 1 ...
Also first gear will not hold on deceleration.. It will freewheel meaning motor will go to idle
and car will coast freely...

 

[azblackhemi]

If it's slow into reverse on startup try putting it in neutral for a few seconds before going into reverse.

 

[Davea Lux]

A transmission that is slow to engage usually means that the transmission filter is clogged or the unit is low on fluid. FYI, Your mechanic has no clue what he is doing. With a 318, you should not need a beefed up or race ready transmission. Down load a copy of the FSM at www.mymopar.com. It is free. As noted above, drain the torque convertor and drop the transmission pan. The FSM gives detailed instructions on how to do a band adjustment and change the filter. When the pan is off check to see how much debris is in the bottom of the pan. If there is a teaspoon or less, the transmission has probably not failed. Do the band adjustment. Check all the bolts on the valve body and be sure none have worked loose. Reinstall the pan and fill the transmission with oil. I do not recommend a reverse pattern valve body for this application. If the car is slow going into gear after sitting some time, that is normal because the oil drains out of the torque convertor, so it needs to fill back up. The front pump is disengaged when the transmission is in park, so start the car in neutral as noted above and see if that solves the problem.

Dave

 

[cbarge]

Majority of 318 C's came with 904's 1968 and newer. FYI
Regardless, 727 and 904 both function the same so repairing and servicing pretty much the same.
I would also try adjustingkickdown linkage first and also the band's.
I would also toss the accumulator spring.
If a rebuild is needed add part throttle kickdown in the valve body.
Hope this helps

 

[thrashingcows]

You would be surprised on how bad a 727/904 can be before it actually needs a rebuild. I bought a 87 D250 with a 360/727 in it and the tranny looked like it had chocolate milk in it, but still drove well. I serviced the tranny, new filter and fluid, then serviced it again in 6 months, then at a year, and again at another year interval...no drain on torque converter so had to flush the system slowly to get all the rotten fluid out. ;) Truck drove, towed and hauled great for all the years I owned it and never gave me an once of problem.

My 85 Ramcharger Sno-Commander plow truck has a pretty burnt up 727 tranny from all it's snow plowing by previous owner(s) but still gets out there and plows just fine, but is a bit on the weak side. So I highly doubt you need a complete rebuild. As the other have said find the proper specs for your tranny and give it a good service and your will probably get many years of use out of it.

 

[twostick]

I'd be surprised if the low/reverse band is worn enough to cause your problem.

Check the fluid engine running, transmission in neutral and if it's low, top it up and see how it behaves.

The torque converter can drain back when they sit so it takes a few seconds for the pump to fill it back up. That vintage of trans only does this in neutral or in gear so you can get a delayed engagement going straight from Park.

If the fluid is still red and correct level, the next time you start it after it sits, go from Park to Neutral, rev it a couple of times or let it idle for 5 or 6 seconds and then put it in gear.

If it still is slow to engage you could then drop the pan to change the fluid and filter and adjust the rear band while you're in there. You will know right away by how many turns it takes to seat the band compared to what you have to back it off, how badly worn it might be.

If that doesn't cure it, you're probably looking at hardened seals cold leaking on whichever clutch pack runs Reverse. You might get away with a snakeoil cure for that for a while, might not.

If none of the above cure it then it has to come out and if you can't do it yourself, find someone other than your bush mechanic for the job.

I just re-read your post. If it still delays going into reverse after letting it pump the converter full in Neutral, I would drop the pan myself to make sure it actually got serviced if I didn't see him do it. A fresh filter should be yellow/tan. Back the lock nut off on the rear band adjuster and count how many turns in it takes to take all the slack out of the band. The adjustment procedure is to torque the adjuster to 72 in/lbs and back it off 2 turns. 72 in/lbs isn't very tight so if it takes much more than 2.5 to 3 turns to get there, chances are he didn't do it or did it wrong. The adjuster has a square head that will require an 8 point socket. The adjustment isn't super critical so if you don't have the right socket, finger tight with 2 fingers by the adjuster on an open end wrench will be good enough to seat the adjuster.

Kevin

 

[david hill]

I agree w/ twostick. Although it can be driven w/ just a full ATF fluid change my recommendation would be the following. If you plan to keep it, its cheaper to do a through rebuild now. As bands and clutches wear the associated debris will circulate through the transmission causing more wear. Harden seals and worn bushings warped clutch and steel separator plates can cause this condition In sever cases major component wear and necessary repairs beyond a normal rebuild. A full rebuild in the w/ all seals and bushings replaced would guarantee many years of faithful service.

 

[CBODY67]

First off, I'll concur that your mechanic might not have a lot of knowledge about TF and their quirks and such.

1 -- The delayed engagement into "R", when coming from "P" after it sits is NORMAL. The torque converter drains back and it takes a while for it to get fully charged after sitting. The lower line pressure in "P" won't do it fast enough, so going to "N" first and then into "R" works best. When we got out '66 Newport with 7100 miles on it, it didn't do it to that extent, allegedly dur to the factory fill atf being of a lighter viscosity (multi-vis?) and all of the replacement fluids were thicker and didn't flow as well. So, after that first fluid/filter change, the delayed moving is normal. The "R" band isn't slipping, it's the torque converter getting re-charged by the oil pump and line pressure.

2 -- After the car got some miles on it, I asked the local "old-line Chrysler" dealer service manager about band adjustment (as I'd seen some comments about that needing to be done with higher mileage). He said that if it didn't slip, don't touch it! He said he'd tried running them "tight" and running them "loose", in the adjustment range and as long as they didn't slip, there was NO problem. Never did get those even checked on any of the Chryslers we have, even well past 150K miles of our use.

Some people might claim the front pump is shot, but that's not necessarily the case for a trans with the miles yours has. Don't expect a TF to act like a THM400 or any other automatic trans after a cold start and "R" engagement. The GM transmissions seems to have a better reverse drainback valve to keep the torque converter charged rather than draining-down after sitting a while, especially over-night. Just get in the habit of starting the car in "N" and all will be fine. It seems that by the earlier '70s, that problem was minimized a bit. Not sure what tweeks happened, though.

3 -- The dacron filter, and especially the brass wire mesh TF filters, according to our local TF
guru, will tend to self-clean each time the engine is turned off and the fluid in the valve body runs back into the pan. We always suspected the dacron filters were better, but all he uses on his rebuilds is the brass wire mesh filter.

4 -- Low and Reverse use the same band, BUT the band applies in "R" and manual "!" only, With the trans in "D", it's the clutch pack that is applied, as I understand it. The 1-2 shift in "D" happens quicker than if you use manual "1" instead. Which is one reason to get the governor set for a WOT 1-2 shift in "D" to happen when you need it to.

5 -- Reverse Pattern Valve Body was devised in the later 1960s for drag racing. When moving the shift lever through the gears, you move the level away from "N", so there's no possibility to miss a shift and go into "N" instead. A full-manual valve body, too. This was needed before the later ratchet shifters came about, which would only manually upshift ONE notch at a time. In the middle-'70s B-body console cars, they were termed "SlapStick". GM also had a version on Camaros at that time, too.

6a -- Removing the accumulator spring will make the trans shift a big firmer, with just that small "mod". Recommended in the Chrysler Mopar Perf shift kit instructions.

6b -- Another way to get a little quicker effective shift and a little better feel is to use the 1965 (and prior) spec "flat steels" rather than the 1966 and up "wavy steels". These are the steel plates in the clutch packs. IF you know what you're feeling, the '65 "flats" do have a nicer, quicker, more positive feel to how the trans shifts in normal driving. The '66 "wavys" were used to cushion the apply pressure for the clutch pack, resulting in a slightly softer feel to better satisfy prior GM owners, I suspect.

7 -- With all due respect, your trans person is probably going from memory of what worked well for older GM automatic transmissions. Those same things are NOT needed, in general, for ANY TF automatic.

Again, do the fluid/filter change and NO MORE than that. Use a quality fluid (Dexron III equivalent or better). There's a Vavoline MaxLife Dexron III-type atf that has some extra detergent and seal conditioner in it, if you desire. In prior times, the Ford Type F fluid has a more aggressive initial apply friction coefficient and can make the trans frictions grab a bit more for a quicker/firmer shift. Kind of like the old B&M Trick Shift atf, many claimed, but not for the B&M price.

CBODY67

 

[cbarge]

As I mentioned before (nobody else mentioned either)
A simple adjustment of the kickdown linkage can wake up the trans and recommend doing this first as a process of elimination before tearing into the trans.
Due to the RHD set up, I am not sure if the Aussie linkage is different than the North American counterparts.
If you have an Aussie factory Shop Manual,follow it to the T.

Kickdown linkage adjusts line pressure as the throttle is depressed.
An out of adjustment kickdown sympton is soft sluggish shifts than can cause premature wear inside the trans and not to mention reduced fuel economy.

For the record,for years I always start and run my Torqueflites in neutral,rebuilt or well worn no matter.

My 71 Coronet had a bad 2-3 upshift where it slipped.Took me three years to finally grenade it.

 

[Dodgy Dick]

Thanks for all your input, I did see the pan off the transmission and was shown an orange coloured flat filter which had a small spot of some dark residue on it similar in appearance to a light sprinkle of black pepper. I agree mechanic didn't seem too expert about the 727 but say's he has serviced trans and adjusted bands. Mechanics invoice has note saying Trans needs rebuild cause bands collapsing. I haven't test driven it in reverse yet but car seems to change gears ok in "Drive" I'll update later.

 

[twostick]

Bands collapsing... That's a new one.

They fail 1 of 2 ways. They wear out which in the case of a low/reverse band would take in the neighborhood of a million miles in normal use or the end snaps off which means no reverse.

Kevin

 

[commando1]

I have just had my '69 Fury 111...

Even after all this time.

 

[CBODY67]

As I mentioned before (nobody else mentioned either)
A simple adjustment of the kickdown linkage can wake up the trans and recommend doing this first as a process of elimination before tearing into the trans.
Due to the RHD set up, I am not sure if the Aussie linkage is different than the North American counterparts.
If you have an Aussie factory Shop Manual,follow it to the T.

Kickdown linkage adjusts line pressure as the throttle is depressed.
An out of adjustment kickdown sympton is soft sluggish shifts than can cause premature wear inside the trans and not to mention reduced fuel economy.

For the record,for years I always start and run my Torqueflites in neutral,rebuilt or well worn no matter.

My 71 Coronet had a bad 2-3 upshift where it slipped.Took me three years to finally grenade it.

A BIG 10-4 on the kickdown linkage adjustment!

In our '66 Newport 383 2bbl, when it was new, always seemed to upshift a bit early (governor controlled) as the rpms seemed to fall back a bit too much after the upshift. NOT really unusual for most brands of vehicles back then. So we KNEW to manually upshift if we wanted best performance (also had to learn what worked best to not over-rev things!!!). Factory 4bbls seemed to be better-calibrated for better WOT upshift performance, though.

When I took the '66 to college, I soon found out that if I drove like I did normally, I'd be left in the dust in the stoplight grand prix. EVERY time! I found that a little more throttle, manually shifting 1-2 would help. When I came home one weekend, I talked to the local Chry dlr service manager about that. He suggested I put two more turns of preload into the kickdown linkage, for a total of "4" rather than "2". I questioned any durability situations (which I'd read about many times), but he said "No problems. That's how I have mine set.").
So I got out the FSM, looked at that page to see what all was involved. I added two more turns of preload and I WAS SURPRISED at how much nicer the car drove! All it did was raise the part-throttle upshift speeds a bit, BUT just enough to keep up with traffic with less throttle input, which I saw as a "WIN". No cooked atf or anything else, either. Just a better driving car. More like it should have been from the start.

Later, I test drove a trade-in '85 D-100 5.2L 4bbl pickup. Same thing, trans upshifts WAY too early for best performance in normal driving. Tried some manual upshifts and things worked much better. A friend's Ramcharger 5.2L was the same way. The '72 Newport 400 my parents bought new was the same way. My '80 Newport 360 was the same way, as was my '70 Monaco "N" 383 when I got it.

Played with the slotted adjustment on the '72 and '70 to get a 2-3 min throttle upshift so that the after-upshift rpm was about 1000rpm, 25-26mph on the 3.23 Monaco, 28-30mph on the 2.76 Newpors, and a bit more on the '80 with its 2.45 axle ratio.

Dynamics of the early scenario. Once the 2-3 upshift takes place, all acceleration is "on the converter", so that means more throttle input and related slippage in the converter, which can build heat in the atf fluid (than normal). Slower acceleration results, unless you put enough throttle into it to get a part-throttle kickdown (on those TFs with that feature). Might be more "stately", but no fun waiting for things to happen.

After that little bit of additional pre-load in the linkage, the upshifts were delayed a small bit, BUT the engine and gears provided the additional acceleration more efficiently and effectively. The converter stays "more solid", so atf temps shouldn't increase, either. Just a more fun feel to things, especially when the car feels "more fun" too!

On the '80 Newport, they'd moved the linkage adjustment down under the cowl area. Needed some fancy Kent-Moore tool to keep things tensioned while the adjustment was performed. An adjustment which was oriented toward earlier upshifts (possibly for "grams/mile" emission measiurements?). So, not wanting to go to that effort, I figured out that adding a small, narrow plastic wire tie to the rear of the slot in the kickdown road at the carb would accomplish the same thing as moving the linkage adjustment! So, that's what I did, using the small black wire-tie in that location. The plastic would provide a good friction interface with the carb linkage, too. AND . . . that's all it took. I considered putting another one at the top of the slot, but that wasn't necessary.

So, YES, the kickdown adjustment needs to be in the correct BASE adjustment for best trans life, BUT tweaking it a small bit from that point can increase normal driving performance too! NONE of what I did couldn't be reversed if it hadn't worked, but it DID WORK, so no reversals were needed.

CBODY67

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Adjust the bands, change the filter, and fluid. The low reverse band can be waaaaay out of adjustment and still work, just takes a while to bend that stiff band. It does not affect low gear in drive because the band does not do anything in breakaway/drive low gear, it becomes the job of the overrunning clutch in Mopar speak, sprag for everyone else, to make the car move forward and allow quicker 1-2 shift.
Fire your transmission mechanic.

 

[Davea Lux]

Adjust the bands, change the filter, and fluid. The low reverse band can be waaaaay out of adjustment and still work, just takes a while to bend that stiff band. It does not affect low gear in drive because the band does not do anything in breakaway/drive low gear, it becomes the job of the overrunning clutch in Mopar speak, sprag for everyone else, to make the car move forward and allow quicker 1-2 shift.
Fire your transmission mechanic.

My first thought exactly. It is always frustrating to find competent help. I would not trust that clown to even change the fluid.

Dave

 

[Davea Lux]

As I mentioned before (nobody else mentioned either)
A simple adjustment of the kickdown linkage can wake up the trans and recommend doing this first as a process of elimination before tearing into the trans.
Due to the RHD set up, I am not sure if the Aussie linkage is different than the North American counterparts.
If you have an Aussie factory Shop Manual,follow it to the T.

Kickdown linkage adjusts line pressure as the throttle is depressed.
An out of adjustment kickdown sympton is soft sluggish shifts than can cause premature wear inside the trans and not to mention reduced fuel economy.

For the record,for years I always start and run my Torqueflites in neutral,rebuilt or well worn no matter.

My 71 Coronet had a bad 2-3 upshift where it slipped.Took me three years to finally grenade it.

I agree about the importance of having the kick down properly adjusted. Given that his problem is a sluggish application when placing the car into reverse, the kick down is probably not in play for this particular problem. More like a band adjustment, clogged filter or bad accumulator seal or a valve body leak someplace.

Dave

 

[70bigblockdodge]

My first thought exactly. It is always frustrating to find competent help. I would not trust that clown to even change the fluid.

Dave

If you do not know how to fix it, just tell the person. You have a idea and will try and charge less. Making **** up is just dumb and makes you sound dumb. 727/ 904 is a easy trans to work on, not rocket science. Collapsed bands wtf, bands break, or they are out of adjustment, second gear band can wear out, but it will slide so bad into second.

 

[Dodgy Dick]

He also mentioned the rear band has gone to "mush" whatever that means !