71 Imperial 4dr A/C (repair or replace?)

Retired_JC

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So after saving my pennies and dimes I finally bought a 71 Imp. The price was right and I knew the non-working A/C reflected that but the interior is like new and the paint is a few years old but still looks great.

I want to get the rest back in shape bit-by-bit starting with the A/C but I was wondering how easy it may be. I'm retired and disabled so I need to have a shop do it that restores classics (checked multiple reviews of place in question 4.9 out of 5 rating), I'd rather get it back to original but barring that they said it could be fitted with a complete after-market system for around $7500, does that sound about right to those in the know? The car looks and runs great but I actually paid less then 7k for it. Just wondering. (I used to work on all my own cars (mopars) years ago but can't anymore, age bites in times like this.)
 
So after saving my pennies and dimes I finally bought a 71 Imp. The price was right and I knew the non-working A/C reflected that but the interior is like new and the paint is a few years old but still looks great.

I want to get the rest back in shape bit-by-bit starting with the A/C but I was wondering how easy it may be. I'm retired and disabled so I need to have a shop do it that restores classics (checked multiple reviews of place in question 4.9 out of 5 rating), I'd rather get it back to original but barring that they said it could be fitted with a complete after-market system for around $7500, does that sound about right to those in the know? The car looks and runs great but I actually paid less then 7k for it. Just wondering. (I used to work on all my own cars (mopars) years ago but can't anymore, age bites in times like this.)

First off $7.5k for after market air sounds very high to me. Second, does the car have standard air or ATC? Standard air is not difficult to work on and parts are still readily available. Unfortunately, most Imperials of that era have ATC which was highly unreliable even when the cars were new. Parts for these systems are often difficult to find and most of the diagnostic equipment used to test the various components and the folks who knew how to work on them are long gone. The RV2 compressor was used on both standard air and ATC and was a very good unit running on R-12. RV2 compressors do not do well running on R-134a and need to be checked often for state of charge so that the compressor does not burn out. There really is no good fix for trying to make an ATC system reliable, you can spend a thousand dollars on it this season and in all likelyhood it will keep needing expensive repairs year after year. If the car has standard air, a conversion to a Sanden rotary compressor would be a good option and will cost a lot less that the quote for after market air that you received. Spending $7.5k to repair the air on a car that cost you $7k makes no sense at all. I would suggest that you do more research on this.

Dave
 
The 7.5k sounded high to me also as I did some research beforehand, and still am, thus the reason for being here, the other thing was that he said "due to their backlog of cars they require a $500 deposit to ensure a spot for the middle of Sept. The car has ATCII and I find many calling it "The Dreaded" ATCII. The compressor still has the RV2 written in yellow on it and from what I understand from the bio on the car, everything is original except the tires and paint, I'm the 3rd owner at this point and it went out while the last owner had it (since 2016 - 19). I've contacted a couple (classic) mopar shops near me about having it fixed or where to go as I'm sure they have more and better info then I, but to no avail so I'm on my own in doing all this. In checking, most conversion kits seem to go for under $2k, then there's the labor and I have no idea on that. I am also asking myself, is it worth it if the cost really is around $7.5k like they said or should I just enjoy the car for a year or two and resale for a small profit if I can. There's a lot of questions I ask myself but the answers are slow in coming, the other trouble is, at my age (65+) the time gets shorter. In any case, thanks for the response. I don't have a web space but I'll try and upload a couple pictures, if I can.

Dash LS.jpg


Front Seat.jpg


LS &Rear Driveway.jpg


RF & RS.jpg


Right Side.jpg


RS Motor.jpg
 
I just sold my 73 imperial LeBaron to Doc McNeedy, it also has the ATC Ii (early version of automatic climate control) and I had my repairers in Wisconsin go through it and sort it out so all works as it should.

Doc has the testing device used when repairing such systems, and another member (name escapes me) lent one and advice to my repairers. There is no way that repairing a system, if even replacing with a more modern unit would cost anywhere near 7500.

I'm sure if you post a thread requesting help with the system, that it'll be provided, forum folks are great that way.

The negativity surrounding ATC ii systems is due to their complexity, as Dave A Lux explained, they were difficult systems when new, but without which we wouldn't have today's systems.

All the best with your car, and happy motoring once done.
 
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The 7.5k sounded high to me also as I did some research beforehand, and still am, thus the reason for being here, the other thing was that he said "due to their backlog of cars they require a $500 deposit to ensure a spot for the middle of Sept. The car has ATCII and I find many calling it "The Dreaded" ATCII. The compressor still has the RV2 written in yellow on it and from what I understand from the bio on the car, everything is original except the tires and paint, I'm the 3rd owner at this point and it went out while the last owner had it (since 2016 - 19). I've contacted a couple (classic) mopar shops near me about having it fixed or where to go as I'm sure they have more and better info then I, but to no avail so I'm on my own in doing all this. In checking, most conversion kits seem to go for under $2k, then there's the labor and I have no idea on that. I am also asking myself, is it worth it if the cost really is around $7.5k like they said or should I just enjoy the car for a year or two and resale for a small profit if I can. There's a lot of questions I ask myself but the answers are slow in coming, the other trouble is, at my age (65+) the time gets shorter. In any case, thanks for the response. I don't have a web space but I'll try and upload a couple pictures, if I can.

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Congratulations on your beautiful imperial. I'm confident that between the forum members within and without Minnesota we'll soon get your car sorted out and you cruising the freeways in Imperial luxury.
 
Not that it really matters, but someone has installed an aftermarket manifold and valve covers. The car looks to have been very well cared for and is stunning to look at. You should check the compressor to see if it will still turn over. Put a socket on the bolt at the center of the clutch assembly and try to rotate the compressor to turn over two full rotations. If it will turn, the compressor has probably not seized. The A/C system does not appear to have been converted to R-134a yet as it lacks the updated service fittings.

Dave
 
Has anybody done any mechanical troubleshooting to your current system? Does it hold pressure? If not, have the leaks been identified? The hardest part to replace is the evaporator, and they are still available.
70 71 72 73 Dodge Chrysler Plymouth Fury ac Evaporator Core OEM 3502019 EC5777 | eBay
All of the other components are available, or can be replaced with "universal" alternatives (hoses, condensers, compressors).
There are also still sources for the ATCII control parts, but they are getting fewer and more expensive.
Back in 1981, I converted a 70 New Yorker ATCII to manual AC with bone yard parts. I recall it was not that difficult. I am currently completing a conversion on a 78 New Yorker ATCII that will be the subject of an extensive write-up when done. (all of the hardware remains, biggest change is the control head, wiring, and vacuum hoses).
Before you consider any offers, it would be good to find out what is actually wrong with your existing system.
 
Welcome aboard -- this forum is the right place to come for advice.

It looks like you bought the '71 Imp that was for sale on Minneapolis Craigslist 3-4 weeks ago? That car had the same color and blackwall tires as yours. Congratulations!

When your car was still for sale, I discussed it briefly with a friend who is extremely knowledgeable about '71 C-bodies in general and Imperials in particular. I remember his being puzzled that the Performance Analysis autotemp servo had been fitted to it, but the a/c still didn't work.

--> I have a few thoughts:

0. The $7.5k price quoted is IMHO insane.
1. Is this car going to be your DD (daily driver)? If not, then do you really need the A/C to be fixed right now? Since you are in MN and summer is almost over, I would not think so -- in which case I would (i) concentrate on having a good local person go through the car to make sure essentials are OK and (ii) take plenty of time to find the right person to work on the A/C.
3. As for a competent and honest local mechanic would could go over the car, you should reach out to @DocMcNeedy (sorry, Doc, for putting you on the spot without asking first). Doc has a fleet of 1972 and '73 Imperials that he keeps in great shape, and I understand from his FCBO postings that he does not do most of the work himself. Assuming his technician has the time to have a look at yours, that would be the first thing I'd do.
4. As for who the right A/C person might be, I would 100% follow the advice of @LeBaron1973. If I were you, I would reach out to the latter, and also to @DocMcNeedy and @LocuMob in MN, and request their suggestions. Other folks who have tons of combined years of experience about fuselage Imperials include @Moseman in NM (like Doc, his tastes run to '72-3), @saforwardlook in CA (he likes the '71's the best, and owns a few), @detmatt in MI, @Imperialist in MO, @Robert Saigh in IA, etc. There are Imp lovers everywhere, as far away as @fc7_plumcrazy in Germany, @ImpJay in Finland (who started a 69-71 Imperial photo harvest), and @crv in NZ (Edit: typo, I meant OZ; thanks @LeBaron1973). I am omitting many Imp owners here, who I hope will forgive me -- but forum folks are great that way.

Good luck!

PS: How old are the tires? I would love to see whitewalls back on the car. If you need recommendations, there are several threads on which tires to get. The latest one is here.
 
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I recognize this green Imperial as being for sale not far from my workplace in Bloomington, Mn awhile back. Would be glad to help you with anything I can. I have the tester. My mechanics are backlogged with other customer cars this part of the summer. I have been put on a holding pattern for a couple of mine. They told me not to buy anymore Imperials dammit...:lol:
Be glad to meet you with one of my Imperials as we are living in pretty close proximity. Ironically, I made contact this week with another Imperial owner from Apple Valley. He has several beautiful '56 Imperials. We should have our own Imperial car show.:confused:
I'll PM you my number.
One small fact about me: *air conditioning with my Imperials is a super, super low priority...I don't even turn it on with the ones that are functional. And I haven't asked for a quote to fix any of my other ones. So, I don't know what a fair price would be to tackle this problem. I could tell you more about gas tank, carb, brake booster, idler arm, etc...replacements...prices.
 
You already have an upgraded Performance Analysis Company remanufacturered controller under hood, so the major cost is taken care of in fixing the system generally. The ATC II system is not "dreaded" by me at least, and Performance Analysis Company is very helpful if your technician runs into issues. Any a/c specialist should be able to get the system running well, and could call the PAC company up for advice if issues arise. The most usual part that fails is the vacuum check valves, as if one of them fails, the system will not even turn on. But they are accessible and easy to replace. The other component that might fail is the amplifier, which is also available at a fairly low price and easily replaced too.

$7500 for an aftermarket system is ludicrous, and just isn't necessary. Everything needed to fix your car to work properly is readily available. Not to worry.

You have a beautiful car. It would look stunning in whitewalls IMO! Enjoy!
 
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Your system looks complete, is there any refrigerant still inside? If so you should consider an underhood conversion to modern compressor and condenser rather than a complete aftermarket conversion. I just completed such a conversion on my 66 Monaco wagon with dual a/c, it cost me $975.00 and I did the work myself. I can't say anything about ATCII but I wouldn't replace a whole system unless a bunch of parts are missing. Take a look at my thread - good luck.

66 Monaco Wagon A/C Resurrection
 
Hi, thanks for the responses, I've been busy doing and checking things about the car, I forgot that it can sometimes be a lot of work (initially) so I'm plugging away at it.
I'll respond to a few comments here first, sorry about being long winded, I decoded the fender tag also, need to find build sheet:
--someone has installed an aftermarket manifold and valve covers. - yes, newer Edelbrock mani and carb is on there and performs great.
-- Put a socket on the bolt at the center of the clutch assembly and try to rotate the compressor etc - The compressor turns free as far as I can tell, I was able to spin the outer ring (clutch?) with no problem and the compressor itself spins free and the (fan) belts are still all in place. It is still the old R12 unit so it hasn't been upgraded, also, no hardened seats either so I need to use a Lead additive when filling up.
-- Has anybody done any mechanical troubleshooting to your current system? - I took to a A/C shop (that my regular shop uses when I still had my 2010 Journey) BUT, I'm not convinced they knew a lot about that old Imperial (no surprise though). They did a test and here's what he has on the sheet: " Add freon to system and found major leak at front of compressor, and, heater and A/C fan not working, both need to be repaired to see if A/C will work... Need to replace A/C dryer, also, system has been open too long." I'm sure he wasn't aware of the way ATCII starts and works because I myself have tested the rest. The fan works fine at both low and high speed but, as it says in the manual, it takes a minute (or so) for it all to kick in and engage. The controls all seem okay also, Hi/Lo Def and venting work and when going to Hi/Lo Auto controls it sends (warm) air through vents and floor the way they should and again, the fan goes to hi/lo speed fine. I did notice what seemed to be a vacuum leak or hiss for a few seconds but if memory serves me right, that's also normal as the door swings into position. The temp thermostat blows hot when turned to 85 and blows normal (outside) air when turned to 65 and the heat is off. I did find the (hot) wire for the compressor was disconnected and found what I'm pretty sure was the wire it needed to be connected to (I followed it back before trying) but of course the clutch didn't kick in with no freon in the system. The car came with an old (off-car) Servo Assembly and Amplifier and the ones on there look pretty new so I'm guessing (don't say it ;-] ) they might be.
-- It looks like you bought the '71 Imp that was on Minneapolis Craigslist 3-4 weeks ago? - You are correct, that is the one we're talking about. It's not a daily driver and is registered with collector plates now so I'll take it out just on special occasions and short trips. The classic shop that gave me that price ($7500) never did send me the sheet to reserve a spot so maybe he thought I was a crack-pot or something, just as well though. I don't need the A/C now but it's something I do want to get working in the next year or two, it's there so it may as well be working good is what I'm thinking. I'll touch on the Doc post below but the tires look like about 70% tread or so and when I do change them they will be white walls (or did these use red-lines?). There's some good tire shops in my area so that's not a problem.
--Doc - I'll check for your PM and give you a ring, I'm in the Apple Valley area also (about 5 miles south of there actually) so we're all pretty close.
-- If so you should consider an underhood conversion to modern compressor and condenser - That's what I was thinking also, with R12 in the past going with the parts for R134 seems the best choice.
-Here's some stuff I found in checking. The horn does not work so that needs to be traced/checked. As above, all the ATCII controls in the dash seem to work fine. All the electrics work (for the most part) except for a reading lamp in the back (bulb) and the 4-ways don't work (I forgot to get a flasher today to check) but all the signal lights work, including fenders. I need the wing nut for the spare tire tie-down but that's no big deal, local, ebay or amazon. The car was repainted in 2016 (I'm told) but I'm not sure they did good prep-work for it as I do see small bubbles on the rockers, I'm thinking some rustkiller for now and maybe a good repaint in a few year with the body prepped the right way. I had a 70 Challenger RT/SE in the late 80s the we restored and I helped in the body prepping so that was a learning experience for me, I sold it in 92 and kicked myself ever since. Getting brain freeze now so if I think of more I'll post. The car is a beauty though..oh, I think shocks may be needed too. Thx
 
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Hi, thanks for the responses, I've been busy doing and checking things about the car, I forgot that it can sometimes be a lot of work (initially) so I'm plugging away at it.
I'll respond to a few comments here first, sorry about being long winded, I decoded the fender tag also, need to find build sheet:
--someone has installed an aftermarket manifold and valve covers. - yes, newer Edelbrock mani and carb is on there and performs great.
-- Put a socket on the bolt at the center of the clutch assembly and try to rotate the compressor etc - The compressor turns free as far as I can tell, I was able to spin the outer ring (clutch?) with no problem and the compressor itself spins free and the (fan) belts are still all in place. It is still the old R12 unit so it hasn't been upgraded, also, no hardened seats either so I need to use a Lead additive when filling up.
-- Has anybody done any mechanical troubleshooting to your current system? - I took to a A/C shop (that my regular shop uses when I still had my 2010 Journey) BUT, I'm not convinced they knew a lot about that old Imperial (no surprise though). They did a test and here's what he has on the sheet: " Add freon to system and found major leak at front of compressor, and, heater and A/C fan not working, both need to be repaired to see if A/C will work... Need to replace A/C dryer, also, system has been open too long." I'm sure he wasn't aware of the way ATCII starts and works because I myself have tested the rest. The fan works fine at both low and high speed but, as it says in the manual, it takes a minute (or so) for it all to kick in and engage. The controls all seem okay also, Hi/Lo Def and venting work and when going to Hi/Lo Auto controls it sends (warm) air through vents and floor the way they should and again, the fan goes to hi/lo speed fine. I did notice what seemed to be a vacuum leak or hiss for a few seconds but if memory serves me right, that's also normal as the door swings into position. The temp thermostat blows hot when turned to 85 and blows normal (outside) air when turned to 65 and the heat is off. I did find the (hot) wire for the compressor was disconnected and found what I'm pretty sure was the wire it needed to be connected to (I followed it back before trying) but of course the clutch didn't kick in with no freon in the system. The car came with an old Servo Assembly and Amplifier and the ones on there look pretty new so I'm guessing (don't say it ;-] ) they might be.
-- It looks like you bought the '71 Imp that was on Minneapolis Craigslist 3-4 weeks ago? - You are correct, that is the one we're talking about. It's not a daily driver and is registered with collector plates now so I'll take it out just on special occasions and short trips. The classic shop that gave me that price ($7500) never did send me the sheet to reserve a spot so maybe he thought I was a crack-pot or something, just as well though. I don't need the A/C now but it's something I do want to get working in the next year or two, it's there so it may as well be working good is what I'm thinking. I'll touch on the Doc post below but the tires look like about 70% tread or so and when I do change them they will be white walls (or did these use red-lines?). There's some good tire shops in my area so that's not a problem.
--Doc - I'll check for your PM and give you a ring, I'm in the Apple Valley area also (about 5 miles south of there actually) so we're all pretty close.
-- If so you should consider an underhood conversion to modern compressor and condenser - That's what I was thinking also, with R12 in the past going with the parts for R134 seems the best choice.
-Here's some stuff I found in checking. The horn does not work so that needs to be traced/checked. As above, all the ATCII controls in the dash seem to work fine. All the electrics work (for the most part) except for a reading lamp in the back (bulb) and the 4-ways don't work (I forgot to get a flasher today to check) but all the signal lights work, including fenders. I need the wing nut for the spare tire tie-down but that's no big deal, local, ebay or amazon. The car was repainted in 2016 (I'm told) but I'm not sure they did good prep-work for it as I do see small bubbles on the rockers, I'm thinking some rustkiller for now and maybe a good repaint in a few year with the body prepped the right way. I had a 70 Challenger RT/SE in the late 80s the we restored and I helped in the body prepping so that was a learning experience for me, I sold it in 92 and kicked myself ever since. Getting brain freeze now so if I think of more I'll post. The car is a beauty though..oh, I think shocks may be needed too. Thx

If your compressor still turns over, it can still be repaired. The leak at the front of the compressor is probably caused by the system being low on gas. The front seal uses refrigerant oil and gas pressure to make the seal. If the rest of the system appears to function, you probably could get away with replacing the front seal and filter dryer to attempt a recharge with R-12. Trick is trying to find somebody with a supply of R-12 who is no yet retired, the system would need to be topped of with fresh refrigerant oil. Failing that, the Sanden conversion is probably the next best option.

Dave
 
In relation to the horn, it's probably a rim-blow horn which has long since expired.

Doc can send you a photo of what was done to Lee, his white one, formerly mine, but basically a white button was installed to the left of the steering wheel which you bump (lift knee up);with your knee and it works. Sounds like you got lucky with a pretty solid car.
 
Great news about the ATC! Sounds like you need only to get the compressor repaired, and you are back in business!
There are many posts and opinions about retaining the RV2 or replacing it with a Sanden. FWIW- My 77 Cordoba has been running with R-134 since 1999 in its 1988 Mopar reman RV2 compressor. I had to replace the shaft seal in 2008, but no problems otherwise. My 71 NYer is still running the RV2 compressor it left the factory with. I replaced the shaft seal in 2003, and converted to R-134 at that time. No problems since.

If you determine that your Rimblow horn switch is faulty, a replacement is available-
1960-1976 All Makes All Models Parts | MD8034 | 1960-76 Mopar - Rim Blow Steering Wheel Switch | Classic Industries
I have one in stock for my car, but haven't gotten around to installing it yet. (I hid two small pushbuttons under the vinyl in the horn pad as a "temporary" :rolleyes: fix back in 2002 when I first bought the car).
 
In relation to the horn, it's probably a rim-blow horn which has long since expired.

Doc can send you a photo of what was done to Lee, his white one, formerly mine, but basically a white button was installed to the left of the steering wheel which you bump (lift knee up);with your knee and it works. Sounds like you got lucky with a pretty solid car.

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Beautiful Imperial...I'm glad whitewalls are on your list. They did not use redwalls on Imperials- always a whitewall with an Imperial.
 
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