8 inch wheels on front

65_Polara

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It bugs me endlessly to see cars where the tires are pulled way in under a car--like A12 cars with G70s on 6 inch wheels. On the back of my '68 Fury, I currently have a set of 255/70-15s on US Wheel Rat Rod 15x8s with 3.75" backspace that look amazing. That said, they don't accept a the '68 center cap that I'd like to have the option of running. US Wheel makes an OEM Chrysler wheel in a 15x8 w/ 4" BS and I don't think the .25" will hurt the look too much. My issues arise when I move to the front--which might be an even more egregious offender of over-tucking.

This would be a non-issue if our cars had a wider track or I could buy a 7" OEM steel wheel with 3" of backspace, but these wheels have to fit A-bodies too. I get that. My question is, who here is running a 15x8 on the front with 4" of backspace and something like a 235/70-15 (don't fuss me, Cooper says you can). Could you provide pictures?

Thanks in advance!
 

commando1

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It bugs me endlessly to see cars where the tires are pulled way in under a car--like A12 cars with G70s on 6 inch wheels. On the back of my '68 Fury, I currently have a set of 255/70-15s on US Wheel Rat Rod 15x8s with 3.75" backspace that look amazing. That said, they don't accept a the '68 center cap that I'd like to have the option of running. US Wheel makes an OEM Chrysler wheel in a 15x8 w/ 4" BS and I don't think the .25" will hurt the look too much. My issues arise when I move to the front--which might be an even more egregious offender of over-tucking.

This would be a non-issue if our cars had a wider track or I could buy a 7" OEM steel wheel with 3" of backspace, but these wheels have to fit A-bodies too. I get that. My question is, who here is running a 15x8 on the front with 4" of backspace and something like a 235/70-15 (don't fuss me, Cooper says you can). Could you provide pictures?

Thanks in advance!
You post is confusing.
Are you trying to keep the current tire size and push it out of the wheel well?

2yvqucg-3.jpg


I don't like messing wth the geometry of front ends.
 

65_Polara

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I don't think you're confused, Stan, so much as you needed a reason to post your HiLaRiOuS picture.

No, not outside the wheel well--to the wheel well. You know, so it doesn't look like a pig on stilts. With a cop wheel, there's like 3" inches of space between the fender lip and the outermost point of the sidewall. I'd like to take up some of that space with wheel/tire. We're not talking about changing geometry--just where there outside sidewall is in relation to the mounting surface. There's no reason why the tire needs to be shaded by an awning. Look at any A-body with a '73 disk brake conversion and tell me that the tires on our cars need to be so far in.

If you can't be helpful, at least be thankful I'm not asking about spacers.
 

Newport 66

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While a wide tire may look good (personal opinion to each) it will effect the steering geometry, handling and braking.
 

65_Polara

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Thank you, but I'm not talking about a wide tire. I'm talking about a 235/70-15 on a 1" wider than normal wheel.

Also, not for anything, but I can't imagine braking or handling being adversely affected by a wider tire in any scenario. I'd, personally, like to keep the tread patch as narrow as possible (while still being a 28" tall tire) to accommodate my manual steering.
 

The Goose

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Pig on stilts???? You meant elephant right? LoL!!!

AC4B4661-793A-4D29-B2F5-8DB59CD51228.jpeg


See what you mean looking at dumbo from behind.

FBAF1D45-68CD-4328-AB52-D41BA9842198.jpeg


Doesn’t bother me I know it’ll never look like this thing.

98E40E37-B287-40E5-B663-E5B8EB3B4D65.jpeg


Bigger the front the harder it make it steer. I don’t think an inch will hurt.
 

The Goose

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2CB16E6F-35DA-48FC-A5BC-283937B3AA7C.jpeg


My 71 has 14x8 w horrible backspacing. Tires are free bfjunk 235-70-14 I won at the good guys like 14 years ago. It’s all in the backspacing because I hate these. Car steers fine and these are pretty wide.
 

65_Polara

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Pig? Elephant? Whatever it takes. Your pictures do a fairly good job of illustrating what I'm talking about. I have the rear wheels figured out and I'm much less concerned about cross sectional width than height as it relates to the tire. I'm just talking about getting as close to the sheet metal as possible. I see a lot of dudes putting 275/60s on cars because they're wide, but they're still a country mile from the lip--taking away much of the meanness. On the other hand, this is a 235/60 and it looks like it means biz because of its proximity to the sheet metal.

2020-08-21_16-42-06.jpg


If I've got to have extra clearance somewhere (the compromise of wanting a 29" tire), I'd much prefer it on the inside where I can't see it every time I look at the car.
 
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CBODY67

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I understand the orientation of desiring the front wheels to be more near the outer sheetmetal and such, BUT unlike current RAM pickups with that wheel placement, THOSE vehicles were designed dfor that, whereas the C-bodies were not. Things like "wheel hitting inner fender when turning and encountering a bump", for example.

As for the steering geometry of Chrysler products, back then, you might look at the related Chrysler MasterTech course on front end alignment, which also illustrates Chrysler's front end geometry and the CAMBER patterns as the front wheels turn from side to side. As the center-line of the wheel/tire combination is moved more outboard, those effects will be magnified. JUst as using a wheel with almost no backspacing would do.

Driving in a straight line, probably no differences, BUT on a affroad surface where one wheel is level and the other wheel drops off, in relation to the other side, that might result in some self-steering or increased "bump steer" affects.

On more modern vehicles, the reason the wheels/outer sheet metal on the front have the relationship you like is NOT for looks, but for aerodynamic issues related to fuel economy. On those vehicles, what's behind that outer sheet metal is designed for things to bve that way, whereas prior vehicles typically were not. FWIW

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 

65_Polara

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Bump steer is related to toe and the relative lengths and angles of the tie rods and LCA/spindle pivots points. Adjustments in ride height might affect this, track width should not—especially after an alignment (I’ve got a brake swap and front end rebuild to do yet). Yes, the wheel I’m proposing would stick out off the flange an additional 1.25 inches on either side compared to a cop wheel; but as I mentioned before, the thousands of ‘73+ A-body disk swaps running around should be evidence enough that the wider track isn’t going to hurt anything.

Listen fellas, I haven’t come here to ask permission. I’ve looked at a dozen pictures of similarly outfitted B-bodies and I’m simply looking for pictures of C-bodies with 8” wheels on the front to see if it looks as good or I need to come up with another plan.

Happy:
24127183-514D-4BC7-A1B7-83CCE2A5FBA3.jpeg

Sad:
35F2B67B-5021-4281-8806-4CA77AAF3DA2.jpeg

My current state of discontent:
30768F1D-A851-455A-852B-3DA8C74F5245.jpeg

**Note: rears in this photo are still cop wheels—not aforementioned US Wheel Rat Rods**

Here are the Rat Rods on another Fury. There’s about 1/2” from sidewall to lip—which is what the Dart had in the Mopar Muscle archive pic I posted earlier. Like I said in my initial post, I don’t think 1/4” of additional BS will hurt the look too much and will decrease the possibility of the the two tangling while I’m shoveling the coals around a corner.
991D155C-9F24-46D1-9811-ED3901DAC4F3.jpeg
 
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JM_ART

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On more modern vehicles, the reason the wheels/outer sheet metal on the front have the relationship you like is NOT for looks, but for aerodynamic issues related to fuel economy. On those vehicles, what's behind that outer sheet metal is designed for things to bve that way, whereas prior vehicles typically were not. FWIW

Aesthetics play a very large part in the reason so many late model vehicles are equipped with such large diameter wheels and tires. If not, we'd still be rolling on 14 inch wheels. Recalling cars that were produced in the '80s, we thought 16" wheels and tires were really big. Now they're common, sometimes even seeming "undersized", since it's nothing for vehicles now to come with. 18" wheels as standard equipment. People like the look of a wheel/tire combo that fills the wheel opening. If it were solely for the sake of fuel economy, we'd all roll on the most narrow of little donuts. Suspension design has changed, though, I'll give you that. Otherwise, the 18" wheels on my '14 Impala would make it ride like a brick truck.

Personally, I'm looking forward to stuffing 16 inchers into The Red Menace.
 

3175375

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Bump steer is related to toe and the relative lengths and angles of the tie rods and LCA/spindle pivots points. Adjustments in ride height might affect this, track width should not—especially after an alignment (I’ve got a brake swap and front end rebuild to do yet). Yes, the wheel I’m proposing would stick out off the flange an additional 1.25 inches on either side compared to a cop wheel; but as I mentioned before, the thousands of ‘73+ A-body disk swaps running around should be evidence enough that the wider track isn’t going to hurt anything.

Listen fellas, I haven’t come here to ask permission. I’ve looked at a dozen pictures of similarly outfitted B-bodies and I’m simply looking for pictures of C-bodies with 8” wheels on the front to see if it looks as good or I need to come up with another plan.

Happy:
View attachment 397056
Sad:
View attachment 397055
My current state of discontent:
View attachment 397057
**Note: rears in this photo are still cop wheels—not aforementioned US Wheel Rat Rods**

Here are the Rat Rods on another Fury. There’s about 1/2” from sidewall to lip—which is what the Dart had in the Mopar Muscle archive pic I posted earlier. Like I said in my initial post, I don’t think 1/4” of additional BS will hurt the look too much and will decrease the possibility of the the two tangling while I’m shoveling the coals around a corner.
View attachment 397067
I like the look of this:

View attachment 397067

IIRC, there was a company that would widen, change the offset of a steel wheel in SoKal.
If such a place still exists, why not have them make what you want and be done?

(story here): Back in the early 80’s, I had a demolition derby car (Yes, a C body - 65 Polara that I bought for $30 and dropped the engine / trans (a 440 / 727 IIRC) from a 65 New Yorker that I had destroyed in it) and bought a pair of 16” Kubota tractor wheels (with tires). They appeared to be new and I suspect that they were stolen.
The wheel had a 6 lug bolt pattern.
We cut the centers out of the Kubota tractor wheels and the MoPar wheels and welded the MoPar wheel into the tractor wheel. We used a fire brick to set the center on with the Kubota wheel on the concrete floor.
Welded the $hit out of the pieces, installed the tires on backwards and we were done. Balance of course, didn’t matter.
Worked for 3 demolition derbies (shot 30’ rooster tails in dirt / mud). Last time they were used I replaced the MoPar centers for a GM pattern (they went on a 69 Olds 98 that had a 455 in it with 50k miles on the clock due to a power seat fire, gutting the interior)
 

CBODY67

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Yes, back in the 1980s and earlier, there were some larger "wheel shops" that did their own work, putting particular "centers" into wider "rims", for example. Not unlike the "reverses" that were done to many wheels that were popular on some cars. "Chrome reverses", for example, back before the aftermarket wheel industry became so large.

These companies had "rims" and you could put whatever you needed into them as "centers". But somewhere in the later '80s, they stopped doing that. At least the big wheel/axle place in Dallas, tX. Their reply, when questioned, had something to do with product liability. So they then only sold "factory made" wheels after that.

Remember when Dodge was the first pickup truck to offer 20" wheels, and Chevy/GMC didn't? It was mentioned on a car show that Dodge upgraded their braking systems to handle the increased rolling inertia of the larger wheels. A year or so later, GM did likewise on their next body series.

Pick up one of the late model pickup truck 20" factory wheels. in alloy, it weighs very similar to a 1988 steel C-20HD bare wheel. Add a 20" tire to that weight and it's very heavy, compared to what we had in the 1970s. I had to ship a 1988 K-20HD wheel and tire back then, it was over 80 lbs.

Air flow management is one of the "tricks" used to make modern light-duty trucks as fuel efficient as they are. Having the wheels "out to the edge" help with that, especially on the front. Then getting more of the air through the radiator, via the air dams under the front bumper, too. Plus the smoother edges on the hood and fenders. And that "laid-back" windshield! Augmented by drivetrains that allow for 1700rpm @ 70mph on the road, but the aero package is where the highway mpg come in.

THEN, there's the tires. Tread design, rubber compounds, and internal bits. Shorter sidewalls help here, just as the supporting players in the rest of the tire's design. Reduced flex which equals less power consumption. By observation of many TireRack spec tables on tires, many of the 20" tires usually start with 8-9/32" of tread depth, which means 6-7/32" of usable tread before you hit the wear indicators. Whereas the tires our cars came with had 11/32" of tread on them, but wore out sooner.

Powertrains and management thereof are important too. In a typical 8=speed, low gear is between 4.5 and 4.9, with 2nd gear being about 2.5 (similare to the old 3-speed's 1st gear), with 'top gear OD" still being about .70. So plenty of gear for a low-throttle-input start, then shifting to the higher gears quicker with the same throttle setting. In a modern 8-spd TF, just think about speeding up a bit, and the next gear down puts another 300rpm on the tach, for accelereation with almost no throttle input. End result, no "power mixture" needed for better emissions and fuel economy. By my observation and experiences.

But for ALL of these things to work, the "aero package" has to work well. So that as little throttle as is possible is needed to run the vehicles down the road on the highway at 75+ mph.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 

65_Polara

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If such a place still exists, why not have them make what you want and be done?

I’ve considered calling Stockton, but I’d prefer not to pay $200ea for a stock steel wheel. Also, if I’m going to go with a custom wheel, I’d really like to see how close to Boogie City I’d get with 4” of wheel sticking out off the drum/rotor hat. Also, I’ve never mounted a 235 on an 8” wheel and I kinda wanted to see if it flattens the sidewall too much for my liking. If I can get what I want with something inexpensive and on the shelf at Summit, I’d prefer to do that.
 

commando1

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I'm going back to square one and I'm saying an 8" wheel is too effen wide for that tire and the bead will not seat properly or safely.
Also, pushing the wheel centerline away from the spindle and outwards to the wheel well opening is
1. Changing the geometry, and...
2. May/might/properly cause interference issues.

Use a 7"wheel and use (ugh) a wheel with a +0.5 offset if you're hell bent on appearance.
 

CBODY67

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Go to www.tirerack.com, look in the "tire" area to get to the brands and then look for the size you desire to run. THEN go to the "Specs" chart and you'll find a column for "Rim Width" which will show the design-range of wheel widths the tire is designed to work with. Going 1/2" wider that that max spec might still work, but YOUR judgment call on that.

Getting the tire to air-up on the wheel can be variable. Depends on the "bumps" on the inner surface of the wheel. Might need a helper band to compress the center of the tread to make the beads of the tire move outward a bit. Not unlike putting a narrow-tread tire on a 7" wide wheel, in prior times.

Getting the sidewall more vertical (with a wider wheel width) will increase steering response. When I put P215/75R-15 tires on 15x7 Magnum GT wheels for my '80 Newport, it did make the sidewalls more vertical (less bow in them) with the result being that those inexpensive tires acted more like performance tires, in steering response. Ride impact harshness was just a bit more, but notr objectionable. An interesting way to make a mundane tire act better, to me. Proceed at your own risk, though.

An old "rule of thumb" is that the tread should be within 1" of the rim width, either way. Which might explain all of the 5.5" wheels back in the '60s.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 

65_Polara

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I’m starting to remember why I’ve been a member of this forum for 10 years and have 63 posts.

If you return to my initial post, you’ll see that I’ve addressed the tire/wheel combo and requested that folks not to hassle me about it. THE MANUFACTURER’S spec sheet (not Tire Rack, not anyone on this message board’s opinion) states that a 235/70-15 is INTENDED to be installed on a 6-8” wheel—with the measured wheel being right in the middle. Naturally, the appearance/rigidity of the sidewall will change between 6 and 8 inches—which is really what I’m worried about.

Additionally, no alignment measurement is changed with changes in track—not camber, not castor, not toe, not Ackerman, not ride height; nothing. If track width mattered to steering geometry, every A-body with ‘73+ floating caliper kits would have diminished control.

You guys remind me of years ago when dudes were putting F/M/J-body spindles on A-bodies and other dudes who had never tried it were railing on about design and how it’d bind, compromise the perfect engineering, blah, blah, blah. To resolve it, Mopar Muscle did a test and determined that —not only was the more pronounced kick out at the upper ball joint not a problem—it actually made the geometry better.

There is literally no difference on the outside between a 7” with +.5” offset and an 8” wheel. There’s also no difference on the inside between a 7” with -.5” and an an 8” wheel (which is how US Wheel sells them). So, please, spare me the commentary. Pictures are the only thing I care about.
 
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