A good phenolic spacer for Carter 4299s carburetor?

Engine, Transmission & Driveline

  1. GG-1

    GG-1 Active Member

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    Hello and Happy Spring,
    I'm sure this has been covered here before. I have just read some other threads on the subject of percolation and warm/hot start issues. I would like to know which spacer will fit my Carter AFB 4299s, and which brand/type is best. I figure the spacer is a good place to start.
    HOT START: She's cranking very strong on a warm start, but does not turn over right away, or without hesitation.. but once running, she idles nicely. The engine does not overheat, temp gauge is always normal, but the top end always seems to get too hot pointing to a fuel issue.

    COLD START: Ever since I added an inline fuel regulator, colds starts have been an issue. This was never the case before.. always one squirt in the carb via pedal and she turned right over.
    Now, however, I turn key and it cranks 10-20 times before turning over, and I have to give her several squirts... and she starts in a stuttering manner.. again, once running, she immediately idles well.
    Also, I readjusted the divorced choke coil spring around the time I put the fuel regulator on.
    I don't think the choke plate, nor the coil spring/rod is set correctly. I shouldn't have touched it, so I'll put those things back where I found them.
    The other thing I notice now is a hiss when turning the car off after a drive. I'm guessing it's from fuel vaporizing. This would also explain the reduction in power. The more the car heats up/is driven.. the more the power seems to dwindle and gets a little "tired" upon acceleration.
    Theres also the theory that fuel is leaking down from the bowl through the secondaries creating s rich condition in the cylinders.

    I seriously think my air/fuel delivery is the issue.. boiling/percolating, vaporizing etc.
    I have the fuel line as far away from the exhaust mani and block as possible, but I'll also try wrapping it in aluminum foil and see if it helps.

    Also the fuel pressure regulator only goes up to 5 psi, which I set it to.. by removing it might I solve the problem???
    I may also change out the jets up one size(I've got the factory .068s in now.. will put in .072s)

    Of course crappy gas can always explain a lot.

    And no, I'm not switching to an edelbrock or fuel injection!
    I'm determined to get through this with my trusty Carter AFB.

    Thank you all for reading, and any ideas or suggestion are greatly appreciated.

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  2. Turboomni

    Turboomni Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Curious what engine you have? Not that it really matters. I have a 69 Fury with a 440. I had/ have the same problem in the summer when warm. I have a Edelbrock carb and installed a phenolic I guess insulator under the carb I got from Edelbrock. I thought it made a little difference but was not sure. On here we thought it was the crap gas of today [which is still very possible] and the ethanol added. So I went to a ethanol free gas station for a month and the result was the same. I then went to a place that offered 100+? octane race gas which I believe was unleaded I think and no results. I think gas is crap today and our carbs are little tea kettles sitting on a massive stove boiling over. In cold weather the car is a dream. Starts right up when hot and runs much better than in hot weather.
     
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  3. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Have you checked your heat riser for proper operation. One that is stuck will cause the hot start issues and carb boiling you are describing. If you are running a stock fuel pump, the fuel regulator is unnecessary as the carb floats are to designed to operate with the pressure supplied with the stock fuel pump. You might also want to check the internals of you carb for deposits. Today's crap gas leaves all kinds of deposits on the inside of the carb as the fuel evaporates. This gunk will degrade the performance of the floats and can clog up metering passages and jets. A bunch of gunk at the bottom of the carb also holds heat and can cause boiling.

    Dave
     
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  4. CBODY67

    CBODY67 Senior Member

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    NOT to sound flaky, but "me thinks you've been reading too many conspiracy theory books".

    When the cars were NEW and the gas was "real", Chryslers (especially 383s and 440s) had hot start/restart issues. You can add spacers and heat shields and even block the heat crossover on the intake manifold, and you'll not notice much difference. Using the thick OEM carb base gasket is probably the best thing. Holley had some heat shields, back in the '70s, which were basically for GM applications (spreadbore and squarebore), which I tried on my '70 Monaco, and they really didn't "fix" the problem (in the later '70s).

    Ethanol is NOT the only aromatic item in gasoline which affects the Reid Vapor Pressure of the fuel. Which is why ethanol-free gas is not the panacea some perceive it might be.

    IF the float levels are set correctly, fuel spill-over (IF it is really happening) should be minimized. Should that really be happening on a hot engine, the "spill" will first touch the hot part of the intake manifold, where it should vaporize and the vapor rises into the air cleaner to dissipate in the underhood air.

    Do you have a clear plastic Fram fuel filter? Just curious as that might help with diagnostics, but it can appear empty and still flow fuel through it.

    Most stock fuel pumps won't have more than 7psi fuel pressure, with many in the 5-5.5psi range. Should be NO need for a fuel pressure regulator, unless you've got an electric fuel pump that can pump out more volume of fuel than the stock mechanical pump might.

    I'm NOT going to recommend fuel injection, but what I AM going to recommend is the Mopar Performance electronic ignition kit (just use a stock control box rather than the "orange" box). Why this upgrade? If you still have a point-type distributor, if you put a dial indicator on the points and set the points on one lobe of the shaft, then check the adjustment on other lobes, you'll find a good bit of difference between them, which can affect point dwell. Many of those lobes, which used to be "sharp", are now rounded off and you can see the wear pattern on them.

    Going electronic with the Chrysler kit gets rid of those issues plus a faster advance curve and a new vacuum advance unit, too. All OEM-based and OEM-level components.

    From there, find some NGK V-Power plugs for your application. Why these NGKs? the spark contact areas are near the edge of the center electrode, rather than having flat surfaces for the spark to jump between. This unshrouds the flame kernel for better ignition of the fuel/air mixture. I used them for years in my '77 Camaro 305 (Holley 4175, Holley Z-LIne intake, full emissions spec carb). I liked to set the automatic choke as lean as I can get away with. With one pump before starting, it always started quickly. If it started to act like it was going to die as I' was backing out of the driveway, just a small pat of the throttle for a little pump shot, and it immediately caught and stayed running. Plus, the NGKs allegedly take less "juice" to fire. Making sure the plug wires are in GOOD condition is a plus, too.

    How to adjust the automatic choke thermostat? In 70 degree F ambient temperature (air, engine, car, etc.), the choke valve on the carb should just close by itself. It's not uncommon for the original thermostatic springs to tighten with age, making "setting it to factory specs" resulting in a too-rich adjustment. This is something you have to play with a little. There probably is some information in a factory Chrysler service manual about how the settings/adjustments should be made (when the cars were newer and everything still is at OEM specs, thermostatic spring wise).

    I find it curious that at this time of the year, in NY, you're complaining of hot fuel handling issues?

    For further diagnosis, drive the vehicle for about 25 miles, with it fully at operating temp, then park it. Go back in 15 minutes and see where the temp gauge (if it has one) might be. Open the hood and remove the air cleaner. Fuel evaporating smell? Operate the throttle linkage to see if the accel pump shoots. IF it does, probably not a serious "percolation" issue. But if the inside of the throttle bores are damp, check the float levels. The way the AFBs and AVS are configured, it'll probably take a good bit of fuel float bowl fuel level rise for the fuel to get into the throttle bores, I suspect. Even more for it to come out through the external carb bowl vent.

    Starting technique. Unlike fuel injection where all of the start enrichment functions are done by the computer, you HAVE to put a little throttle into the carb when you start the engine, when warm. The Chrysler owners' manual generally recommends 1/3 throttle when starting a warm engine. IF the engine is stone cold, then the normal 1 punch to let the automatic choke and fast idle cam do their thing. Then you can use the same 1/3 throttle orientation once the engine fires and runs.

    As for spacers or "insulator stacks", you'll probably spend money for very little benefit, from my experiences. Focus more on the ignition system and base timing and I'll suspect you've have better results. But, as I mentioned, Chryslers had hot re-start issues when the cars were "just used cars" in the later '60s and such, when "the air was clean (in most places) and ___ was dirty" and gas still had lead in it.

    IF you verify fuel percolation (which I never experienced down here in the TX summers on our Chryslers), you'd be better off to install an electric fan in front of the radiator to keep air circulating under the hood after the engine stops. ALSO, ensure the existing fan clutch is operating as designed. Getting an infra-red non-contact heat "gun" to check actual underhood temperatures might be a good investment.

    Just some thoughts,
    CBODY67
     
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  5. GG-1

    GG-1 Active Member

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    Thank you very much Turboomni and CBODY67 for the many thoughts and suggestions. The motor is a 383 commando.
    Several others are saying what you're saying about "good fuel" choices, making no noticeable difference in how the their cars behave. I'm not seeing fuel in the bowl on a cold start.. meaning what? Did it boil off after the last time I shut the car off? As I've mentioned, there is a short hiss when I shut the car off. Or, was fuel leaked down into the cylinders/secondaries?(I don't even know how, why or what that means), leaving the bowl empty for the next crank?
    I'm not a mechanic, just trying to figure out how to take care of my car as I go.

    As for hot starts I will do as suggested at 1/3 throttle and then crank.

    Float levels are good. Accelerator pump does indeed shoot fuel from nozzle when pulling throttle linkage.

    As for my automatic choke thermostat, I know for a fact that I need to adjust it with more tension.. the choke plate does not close when cold, or when I tap the throttle. It's gonna be a bit of a PITA because I need to remove the entire carb each time I make this adjustment. Im also having a lot of trouble figuring out how to set the 1/4" drill bit pull-off space for the choke plate. I read about how to do it.. but nothing tells me EXACTLY how to set it. My vacuum pull off is not the type you adjust with a screw. Something about bending it and then making sure you adjust it together with the fast idle cam. I'm completely lost on performing this little, but critical task.

    And yes CBODY67, setting timing properly, and getting ignition system correct is also critical.. but with only 14k original miles on everything, I am going to keep my points distributor. Nothing on it, lobes, etc, is worn. I trust when these systems are set right(fuel and ignition), this car will run very well, as intended.

    The plug wires and spark plugs are brand new and OEM.

    She's just a few adjustments away from being dialed in.. I feel like I need someone with experience in person to show me/guide me through it. So many things expressed in writing are either left out, or not clear to me when it comes to hands on. I've been trying very hard to get everything right. Properly adjusting my AFB carburetor should not elude me for an entire year!!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  6. Turboomni

    Turboomni Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Cbody67 Is is really helpful on hot start having an electronic ignition lke you suggest or a Pertronix? I thought it didn't start hot because all the fuel was basiclly a vapor or most of it and just won't ignite.
     
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  7. GG-1

    GG-1 Active Member

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    Hey Dave, Thanks for the suggestions. My heat riser spring wasn't functioning properly last year so I ended up just wiring it all the way open, for now.
    As for the carb/ fuel/ gunk build up, I just rebuilt the carb myself about 6 months ago, everything clean and operational. Wouldn't hurt though to take it apart for a quick check of things. I've only been starting her up with very short drives once a month for the last year.. not sure if bad fuel gunk would form in that time.
     
  8. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    It probably would not have gunked up that fast. While you have it apart, re-check the float levels and check them to be sure there is no fuel in either of them. If you are already running the thick base gasket, that is about as good as it gets for anti boil protection, as the after market heat removal devices really do not work much better. The AFB and AVS carbs usually start the best warm with 1/3 throttle as noted in the post above.

    Dave
     
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  9. GG-1

    GG-1 Active Member

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    Oh, and yes, the fuel pump is an oem replacement.

    And yes CBODY67, I'll diagnose as you suggested by driving 25 or so miles and then check accel pump after 15 minutes off.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
  10. GG-1

    GG-1 Active Member

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    Could I be leaking fuel into the intake manifold? A bad seal or crack in the carb? I'm still puzzled as to why there isn't fuel in the bowl during a cold start.
     
  11. CBODY67

    CBODY67 Senior Member

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    IF the fuel is indeed getting from the float bowls into the intake manifold and such, you should be able to tell that by pulling the engine oil dipstick. The oil will be thiner, blacker, AND with a definite fuel smell.

    It would take a good bit to get either float bowl "dry" -- period. There's a good bit of fuel in them to start with. IF the accel pump will shoot several shots, it's probably not as dry as you might suspect.

    I mentioned the Mopar Performance kit as it's complete, NOT just a distributor, with generally good instructions for installation, which are Chrysler-specific. Pertronix has some good products and many are multi-strike in nature, but some of the added benefits might not really be noticeable in normal use. When I did the MP kit on my '67 Chrysler, I used a NOS MSD-5C control box (designed to plug into the Chrysler wiring harness to replace the existing elecgronic ignition control box), but I didn't really notice anything spectacular about improved performance and such. BUT it is OEM-spec and that can mean a lot, down the road.

    As for the choke thermostat adjustment, there are marks to use on the thermostat body and the thermostat itself. Might need to set it one mark leaner than spec to start with. Don't need the referenced drill bit, but notice the gap between the choke plate and the part of the carb it closes against. The vacuum pull-off is adjusted by bending the bent link that goes to the linkage. The adjacent fast idle cam must be free on its shaft to work correctly.

    IF, in fact there is significant fuel percolation from the float bowls into the throttle bores of the carb, as that fuel drips onto the primary throttle shaft/blades, it can seep out between the throttle shaft and the carb body, dripping onto the intake manifold. This is something that can be seen when it happens, plus smelled.

    Additionally, IF there is that much raw gas getting into the engine, that gas will wash-down the cylinder walls it contacts, which can be the rear two cylinders as they are the lowest ones in how the engine sits in the car. That means accelerated wear on the cylinder walls and all of the engine bearings from fuel dilution of the motor oil.

    The reason I mentioned the ignition system things is that a good and reliable spark is needed to start an engine in conditions which might not be optimum. As I mentioned, the Chrysler MP kit is plug/play in almost all respects. The Pertronix will have a "will work" advance curve that might well need to be customized to your engine, so it'll be "plug in and play with it to get it where it needs to be". Spark plug gap should be .035" - .040" with the electronic systems, but the stock coil should fire those plug gaps with a non-electronic system, too, as I've used the .040" gaps on my 383s, which pull to 5000rpm with no issue.

    I'm not quite sure what the "hiss" is that you're mentioning. I highly suspect it is NOT related to percolating fuel. It could well be that you're hearing vacuum that is equalizing with atmospheric pressure after the vacuum from the engine ceases. Like possible the power brake booster vac check valve or something similar in the hvac system. If the car has a/c, it would be the pressures within the Freon system equalizing, which is completely normal when the engine stops with the system operating.

    Fuel percolation will NOT happen instantly. The fuel has to absorb heat from another source, which takes time. Like how long it takes water to boil ion a pot on the cook stove burner, ib concept. First, you will get fuel expansion in the float bowl and related evaporation of vapor, which can also cool the fuel itself.

    As I recall, in the design and construction of the AFB/AVS carb. there should not be a direct path from the float bowls into the throttle bores for fuel to flow through. It all goes through the accel pump circuit or the venturis. Perhaps I've forgotten about something, or is there a fuel circuit that the throttle body-to-main body gasket seals?

    Still wondering why you're having these issues this early in the year?

    CBODY67
     
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  12. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    Willis is right, there is no direct path for fuel to siphon off, the bottom of the AFB and AVS carbs is a solid casting. To cook out full fuel bodies would require some significant heat. You might want to warm the car up fully and check the coolant temperature, this vehicle should have a 180 degree thermostat and the coolant should be close to that temp. Second, remove the air cleaner and look down the throttle bodies and see if you can see fuel dripping with the engine warmed up and off. Finally, check you heat riser again to be sure you did not wire it in the closed position. The weight is down in the open position.

    Dave
     
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  13. GG-1

    GG-1 Active Member

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    Thanks again guys for your time and thoughts on this.

    Willis, your point well taken... the accelerator pump nozzles squirt fuel, so there was fuel in the carburetor when I've checked that function.
    Something of note** Last week, after getting the car started and warmed up, I drove to a gas station about 1/2 mile away. I turned the car off, opened the hood, and noticed a small, wet fuel puddle the size of a half-dollar on the intake near the right, front corner of the carb, about where the accelerator pump is.. I didn't see any dripping, and eventually it evaporated. As I drove around a bit during the next hour, I stopped periodically to check the carb and mani for fuel leaking and saw none. I'm not sure if the fuel I saw leaked while initially starting, or after the 1/2 mile drive to the gas station. Not sure why either.

    Also, I just changed the oil last week for the first time in 1-1/2 years. It was pretty dark, but I didn't detect any distinct fuel smell. The car has been driven less than 25 miles during that 1-1/2 year period. I have started and run her for about an hour once every month, even if I don't drive around.
    If there was that much fuel leaking into my oil wouldn't my oil level noticeably continue to rise-- or would it evaporate quickly? I really hope gas is not washing down the cylinder walls.

    Maybe the check ball and spring at the bottom of the accelerator pump housing is erratic/malfunctioning?

    Maybe ever since I misadjusted the thermostat spring with inadequate tension, the choke plate does not close shut when starting? Like I've said, It cranks 10-15 times before it roughly begins to start.. and once started, it runs very steady and smoothly right away. Perhaps removing the fuel pressure regulator, as well as adjusting the choke properly will help.

    As for the hiss, I'll have to find a helper to shut off the car while I listen closely under the hood for the source. Hopefully nothing to worry about. If it's the pcv valve, I've got another one handy.

    Dave, The thermostat is a 180 degree unit... and the temp gauge rises slowly to normal when up to temp.. never over heats. I did a flush of the radiator and cooling system last week with the thermostat removed, and clearly saw water flowing inside the radiator while running(during a water flush).
    I'd like to do a more thorough flush, and back flush of just the block soon.. as the radiator runs clear, but the block still has some dirty brown water coming out. I don't know if any of that is affecting the manifold/carb temp. I'll check the heat riser again, but know I wired it in the open position. Will also check down the throttle bodies for dropping fuel when warm and off.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  14. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    If you have a bad needle valve, float or improperly adjusted float on the right side, the top of the accelerator pump is where fuel could leak out. You might have a small piece of dirt under the needle valve on the right side.

    Dave
     
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  15. GG-1

    GG-1 Active Member

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    Hey Dave, Yes, that seems to be where it's coming from. Funny though, because I just rebuilt the entire carb.. set everything to spec and triple checked it all. Fuel tank, fuel line, fuel pump, and fuel filter are all brand new, right before I rebuilt the carb. I'm going to take off the carb anyway to adjust the choke coil spring, so I'll take it apart and check everything.
     
  16. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Senior Member FCBO Gold Member

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    It would not be the first time that taking everything apart knocked some little piece of dirt loose.

    Dave
     
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  17. GG-1

    GG-1 Active Member

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    I'll be going to the car this week, and will soon report back my findings and progress.

    I live in NYC and don't drive another car, so to get up to the my Fury in White Plains, I must subway to Grand Central Station and catch the commuter rail north, 1 hour and 45 minutes each way. Ahhh, the MTA. I enjoy the trip, it's just that I really have to plan my time wisely, days in advance, and collect and transport everything I need on my back, and then once there, spend the whole day. Things like bottles of antifreeze and engine oil can get weighty fast.

    Its comfortable enough as it's a heated two car garage.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
  18. GG-1

    GG-1 Active Member

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    Any idea where I would get a new thick base gasket for a Carter AFB open bore? The one I use now is from the rebuild kit and does not seem so thick. Thanks,

    Alex
     
  19. Big_John

    Big_John Illegitimi non carborundum FCBO Gold Member

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    While I'm a huge fan of the Mopar Performance ignition kit, there's one huge issue.... They have discontinued the kit. My understanding is the ECU is still available (for now) but you need to figure on an aftermarket distributor or score a used one somewhere.

    From what I have seen, and that's largely based on reading issues on this forum and others, there may be a problem(s) with the eBay/Summit/Jegs etc. kits that are offered that use offshore sourced distributors and components. I haven't really kept up with that issue though, so it's more of a casual observation. YMMV.

    As said, I am a fan of the Mopar electronic ignition. It's very reliable, easy to troubleshoot and IMHO, it does have more accurate spark timing and energy. Yea.. Yea.. The points work and that's fine, I'm not going to debate that... But I've had enough "real time" experience with cars with points in everyday use that I developed a real respect for the advantages of the electronic ignition and I really see no good reason to stay with the point ignition.
     
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  20. 66Newyorker

    66Newyorker Active Member

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    A81C044B-8008-4E80-AB41-52A561DE91A5.jpeg 2E2BDCD9-B2BB-49D6-ABEE-A6EEACEA54CB.jpeg

    The fuel bowl on Carter AFB and AVS carburetors are a one piece casing. Passages are drilled for the fuel to get from the fuel bowl,plugs are installed after that. You can leak raw fuel into the intake manifold and on the outside of the intake. That is why I replaced the carburetor in the pictures. How I found out was after I ran the car and parked it I removed the carburetor and found raw fuel down in the intake. As far as hard starting after a warm soak, it has been an issue with our cars ever since I can remember. 1/3 throttle when starting a hot engine seems to work best. Remember we are driving 50 year old cars. :thumbsup:
     
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