advice on changing 440 timing chain

[spstan]

On initial start up the carburetor belches a lot white smoke from the throat. After it starts up (and on subsequent restarts) the engine runs fine. I already rebuilt the carburetor so I'm thinking the white smoke is caused by a timing issue/ maybe timing chain issue. The car is a 1975 New Yorker with around 80,000 miles. I'm going to check if the rotor rotates in sync with the crankshaft (or should I be able to hear a rattle?).

If I find too much slack does anyone have a step by step tutorial on how to change the timing chain? My mechanic wants $1500 and says it will take 2 days. Is this something I can do on the driveway if I have a month to complete the task? thanks Paul

 

[413]

I wouldn’t condemn the timing chain for that. It will still happen with a new chain.

$1500? yes labor is expensive.

 

[spstan]

I wouldn’t condemn the timing chain for that. It will still happen with a new chain.

$1500? yes labor is expensive.

So four, what do you think is causing the belch of white smoke on initial startup? Timing issue? Paul

 

[Big_John]

On initial start up the carburetor belches a lot white smoke from the throat. After it starts up (and on subsequent restarts) the engine runs fine. I already rebuilt the carburetor so I'm thinking the white smoke is caused by a timing issue/ maybe timing chain issue. The car is a 1975 New Yorker with around 80,000 miles. I'm going to check if the rotor rotates in sync with the crankshaft (or should I be able to hear a rattle?).

If I find too much slack does anyone have a step by step tutorial on how to change the timing chain? My mechanic wants $1500 and says it will take 2 days. Is this something I can do on the driveway if I have a month to complete the task? thanks Paul

White smoke is usually water or condensation. Does it smell sweet? That would be antifreeze.

I would do a compression test first. I don't think this is a timing chain problem. I'm more inclined to it being a bad head gasket.

 

[CBODY67]

Belch white smoke on start-up, from the carburetor?

Has anything related to the distributor or timing chain been messed with, to date, that you know of? Is the ignition timing set to specs? Has the balancer ring moved from its original front/rear position on the center hub?

Can you advance/rotate the distributor for more total timing and the issue goes away or is diminished? Extended crank time before it starts?

Although . . . at 80K miles and the age of the car, it is getting CLOSE to time to be needing a new timing chain . . . BUT, determine what is going on FIRST!

That $1500.00 quote sounds like that shop does not want that job, to me.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[413]

Does this car run good when warmed up? Is the carb and timing adjusted properly? Is the choke working as it should?

So many people don’t know how to start a cold engine or set up the choke To work properly.

The choke plate should close all the way on a cold engine, the accelerator pump should squirt fuel down the carb when pumping. Pump it to squirt fuel and close the choke, then turn the key. You should not have your foot on the pedal when turning the key. This is on a car with the carb full of fuel that has been running a few days ago.

@Big_John the smoke comes out the carb not the tailpipe.

 

[spstan]

Belch white smoke on start-up, from the carburetor?

Has anything related to the distributor or timing chain been messed with, to date, that you know of? Is the ignition timing set to specs? Has the balancer ring moved from its original front/rear position on the center hub?

Can you advance/rotate the distributor for more total timing and the issue goes away or is diminished? Extended crank time before it starts?

Although . . . at 80K miles and the age of the car, it is getting CLOSE to time to be needing a new timing chain . . . BUT, determine what is going on FIRST!

That $1500.00 quote sounds like that shop does not want that job, to me.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

CB; I upgraded the distributor to an MSD that made the electronic ignition obsolete. The mechanic swears he has the new distributor timed correctly. But he disabled the vacuum advance and the old electronic ignition box. Like I say it runs fine after initial startup but the white smoke belching out of the carb is unnerving. Paull

 

[spstan]

Does this car run good when warmed up? Is the carb and timing adjusted properly? Is the choke working as it should?

So many people don’t know how to start a cold engine or set up the choke To work properly.

The choke plate should close all the way on a cold engine, the accelerator pump should squirt fuel down the carb when pumping. Pump it to squirt fuel and close the choke, then turn the key. You should not have your foot on the pedal when turning the key. This is on a car with the carb full of fuel that has been running a few days ago.

@Big_John the smoke comes out the carb not the tailpipe.

I floor the accelerator once and then release. It usually starts between 1-3 cranks. Paul

 

[CBODY67]

If the what comes out of the carb could be defined as a "spit-back" it might be from the ignition firing a plug when it should not or a valve not fully closed when the cylinder fires (for whatever reason). Not good on the starter or the engine.

Might need to put the car on a diagnostic machine with a scope to watch the spark plug traces on the screen during the starting when the spit-back might occur.

Considering that #5 and #7 fire one after the other, might check the spark plug routing to ensure the wires are not parallel, for good measure. Check the inside of the distributor cap, too. But that might be a stretch.

CBODY67

 

[1970FuryConv]

On initial start up the carburetor belches a lot white smoke from the throat. After it starts up (and on subsequent restarts) the engine runs fine. I already rebuilt the carburetor so I'm thinking the white smoke is caused by a timing issue/ maybe timing chain issue. The car is a 1975 New Yorker with around 80,000 miles. I'm going to check if the rotor rotates in sync with the crankshaft (or should I be able to hear a rattle?).

If I find too much slack does anyone have a step by step tutorial on how to change the timing chain? My mechanic wants $1500 and says it will take 2 days. Is this something I can do on the driveway if I have a month to complete the task? thanks Paul

Factory OEM "Silent" chains have Nylon cam gear teeth. Nylon gear teeth eventually wear down or break. Also, pins wear through the links in the chain, so that the pin holes become larger. Not a bad idea to replace your timing chain. Go to www.mymopar.com com and download factory shop manual for your car for step by step instructions,

Check Timing Chain

Remove distributor cap

Turn crank clockwise until distributor rotor begins to move

Turn crank counterclockwise until distributor rotor begins to move

Ideally s/b 5 degrees of movement at breaker bar on harmonic balancer before rotor moves in opposite direction. 10-15 degrees may still allow engine to run well. More than that, and the chain is shot. Any more than 15 degrees (4-4.5") at the end of 16" breaker bar and it's time for a new chain.

Reiterate: always a good idea to install new roller timing chain with new steel gears. When nylon teeth go, they can all go, which leaves you stranded and with an oil pan full of nylon teeth fragments. Not fun to do timing chain and gears, then drop the steering linkage, exhaust, and oil pan to clean out the pan and oil pickup.

 

[spstan]

Factory OEM "Silent" chains have Nylon cam gear teeth. Nylon gear teeth eventually wear down or break. Also, pins wear through the links in the chain, so that the pin holes become larger. Not a bad idea to replace your timing chain. Go to www.mymopar.com com and download factory shop manual for your car for step by step instructions,

Check Timing Chain

Remove distributor cap

Turn crank clockwise until distributor rotor begins to move

Turn crank counterclockwise until distributor rotor begins to move

Ideally s/b 5 degrees of movement at breaker bar on harmonic balancer before rotor moves in opposite direction. 10-15 degrees may still allow engine to run well. More than that, and the chain is shot. Any more than 15 degrees (4-4.5") at the end of 16" breaker bar and it's time for a new chain.

Reiterate: always a good idea to install new roller timing chain with new steel gears. When nylon teeth go, they can all go, which leaves you stranded and with an oil pan full of nylon teeth fragments. Not fun to do timing chain and gears, then drop the steering linkage, exhaust, and oil pan to clean out the pan and oil pickup.

Fury: I tried that link you gave me to get a step b step tutorial and the fellow said he couldn't help me. Thanks for the link anyway. Paul

 

[Gerald Morris]

I can help walk you through a timing chain replacement! It's REALLY EASY, though you need to ATTEND CAREFULLY to WHERE YOU SET YOUR CAM, then SEALING THE COVER! If you can manage those two sets of details, then you can do it yourself; EZPZ.

To be VERY BRIEF for now:

0: Get a piston stopper. DON'T TRY THIS WITHOUT ONE! Yes, you MIGHT use a rope, but a proper 14mm piston stop will totally arrest the motion of that #1 piston, while a rope isn't so precise.

1: Crank your engine around until the rotor on your distributor nears the #1 plugwire location. Then, screw in the piston stop. Now, crank the engine up until the #1 piston STOPS. When I say CRANK, I mean this with a 1.25" socket on the main crankshaft bolt, and a big ratchet or breaker bar. I use the latter, a 3/4" drive one in fact. EZPZ. BTW, crank that rotor CCW ONLY!

2. With the #1 piston stopped, you now may proceed w EVERYTHING ELSE. Remove the front accessories, then the timing chain cover.

3. Your cam shaft should already be positioned to nearly close the intake valve and exhaust valve for cylinder #1. MARK THIS POSITION! Mark the crankshaft too. Use something indelible for this.

4. Remove the timing chain sprockets and chain, taking care to preserve your marks. DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING ELSE ON THAT ENGINE! Now, install the new timing chain and sprockets.

5. Put everything else back on the engine, using brand new gaskets and RTV where needed. Take CARE especially with the front oilpan gasket, which likely will be a short bit of cork gasket material to replace what you removed along w the rest of the timing chain cover, AND the water pump gaskets. I advise you to use a FINE STEEL WIRE BRUSH to burnish your surfaces, some black RTV or red if you have it handy already. Then, seal that front of the motor up GOOD, go play for at least 24 hrs, then finish the job.

6. Crank the motor over after replacing the #1 sparkplug. If you read your FSM in addition to following my absurdly low resolution directions, you should be good to go.

It really is an easy job, with a little care....

 

[WOT440]

Fury: I tried that link you gave me to get a step b step tutorial and the fellow said he couldn't help me. Thanks for the link anyway. Paul

Service Manuals – MyMopar

 

[spstan]

I can help walk you through a timing chain replacement! It's REALLY EASY, though you need to ATTEND CAREFULLY to WHERE YOU SET YOUR CAM, then SEALING THE COVER! If you can manage those two sets of details, then you can do it yourself; EZPZ.

To be VERY BRIEF for now:

0: Get a piston stopper. DON'T TRY THIS WITHOUT ONE! Yes, you MIGHT use a rope, but a proper 14mm piston stop will totally arrest the motion of that #1 piston, while a rope isn't so precise.

1: Crank your engine around until the rotor on your distributor nears the #1 plugwire location. Then, screw in the piston stop. Now, crank the engine up until the #1 piston STOPS. When I say CRANK, I mean this with a 1.25" socket on the main crankshaft bolt, and a big ratchet or breaker bar. I use the latter, a 3/4" drive one in fact. EZPZ. BTW, crank that rotor CCW ONLY!

2. With the #1 piston stopped, you now may proceed w EVERYTHING ELSE. Remove the front accessories, then the timing chain cover.

3. Your cam shaft should already be positioned to nearly close the intake valve and exhaust valve for cylinder #1. MARK THIS POSITION! Mark the crankshaft too. Use something indelible for this.

4. Remove the timing chain sprockets and chain, taking care to preserve your marks. DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING ELSE ON THAT ENGINE! Now, install the new timing chain and sprockets.

5. Put everything else back on the engine, using brand new gaskets and RTV where needed. Take CARE especially with the front oilpan gasket, which likely will be a short bit of cork gasket material to replace what you removed along w the rest of the timing chain cover, AND the water pump gaskets. I advise you to use a FINE STEEL WIRE BRUSH to burnish your surfaces, some black RTV or red if you have it handy already. Then, seal that front of the motor up GOOD, go play for at least 24 hrs, then finish the job.

6. Crank the motor over after replacing the #1 sparkplug. If you read your FSM in addition to following my absurdly low resolution directions, you should be good to go.

It really is an easy job, with a little care....

Gerald; thanks for the post. What worries me is the oil pan gasket. I don't have to remove the oil pan to this job, right? Cause that involves lifting the engine which I don't think I can do. thanks Paul

 

[Gerald Morris]

Gerald; thanks for the post. What worries me is the oil pan gasket. I don't have to remove the oil pan to this job, right?

NAAW! Most timing chain gasket kits come with the needed little length of oil pan gasket to replace the bit you WILL remove. It goes just under the front edge of the block on each side, and under the timing chain cover. Just follow the kit instructions on how to install this little length of gasket, and you'll do fine. I did mine about 4 Christmasses ago, and I don't lose a drop from my timing chain cover or the oil pan up there. If you don't get that little bit of cork, then buy a sheet of 1/8" cork gasket material, then cut one to fit the front upper edge of the pan.

Cause that involves lifting the engine which I don't think I can do. thanks Paul

I certainly didn't raise my engine for my job. and can't imagine why you would need to either. Mind you, I CAN, but there is no point for this sort of thing.

 

[Gerald Morris]

I floor the accelerator once and then release. It usually starts between 1-3 cranks. Paul

Hmmm, SUB-optimal tuning bro! I just replaced my breaker points, and now 90% of the time, the engine starts when I just bump the starter. Pumping the carb once and then holding it about 1/3 open should do for initial fuel on a well tuned engine. Mind you, after my points dirty up, and when the dwell drops to under 25 degrees, I then require those very 1-3 revolutions for my old engine to fire too, which is a good criterion for doing a tune up. If your mechanic disconnected the vac advance, you should time the engine, going through first how much advance you see at idle, then stepping it up by 500 rpm steps to 3000 rpm, after warming the engine up. You should have about 12.5 degrees initial advance, and no more than 34 degrees when spun up to that 3000 rpm. Mind you, that much advance with just a centrifugal mechanism would surprise me, but who knows what mods are on your distributor?

 

['66 Fury I]

The first timing chain I changed was on the 383 in my 63 Chrysler. If you read the FSM, think and move carefully, you will be fine. Take pics of the details. Keep the bolts bagged and with the component they came from. Post any questions here. Relax and enjoy! Lindsay

 

[1970FuryConv]

Fury: I tried that link you gave me to get a step b step tutorial and the fellow said he couldn't help me. Thanks for the link anyway. Paul

Hi Paul,
You need to click on SERVICE MANUAL LIBRARY and download the free shop manual for your year, make, and model. Then go to chapter 9 and look up the section of timing chain replace. Ben

 

[Big_John]

Fury: I tried that link you gave me to get a step b step tutorial and the fellow said he couldn't help me. Thanks for the link anyway. Paul

My 2 cents....

If you are planning doing a timing chain swap because of this problem, it would be better if you did some easy diagnosis like @1970FuryConv laid out. I'd also check ignition timing and do a compression check.

Your "mechanic" doesn't want to do that simple chain test... and says the ignition timing is OK. It sounds like you are up for a chain swap, but can't check the timing... If you need a timing light, you can get by with a cheap one at Harbor Fright. You'll need one anyway to do the chain swap.

It's finding the problem rather than throwing parts at it, hoping you'll find the problem.

I'd suggest buying a timing light and finding a new mechanic. (preferably one that won't talk you into crap like the MSD distributor.) I don't have a suggestion for Rochester (I assume NY) but I do know someone in Syracuse if that helps.

 

[Mr Mopar]

I say misadjusted choke or choke pulloff, maybe a bad accelerator pump