Electricians? Been a while since we've had a home electrical post I suppose...

Carmine

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Yes, I did do some online searching.

It seems the end-of-circuit switch isn't that common, at least on the interwebs. There is also a new code requiring a capped neutral, which junks up the search results and isn't relevant since I'm not ripping out the ceiling on the chance someone wants to add "connected home" devices to the basement xx years into the future on a house I plan to sell this summer. Hopefully my graphic shows the issue...

upload_2020-4-22_15-11-9.png
 

300rag

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Yes, I did do some online searching.

It seems the end-of-circuit switch isn't that common, at least on the interwebs. There is also a new code requiring a capped neutral, which junks up the search results and isn't relevant since I'm not ripping out the ceiling on the chance someone wants to add "connected home" devices to the basement xx years into the future on a house I plan to sell this summer. Hopefully my graphic shows the issue...

View attachment 370640
As you connected it, where did you connect your two wires from the new fixture? Where are you picking up your neutral?
 

Carmine

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As you connected it, where did you connect your two wires from the new fixture? If this is a switch with only one 2-wire coming in, then you cannot do that as there is no neutral.

I tried to place the new fixture on series with the black wire going to the switch. I see the error in this because if that light burned out, it would take out the other lights. Going "across" the switch would keep things energized all the time.

So I guess I'm stumped for how to make this work from the switch. "Daisychaining" like I did for the center fixture isn't really an option because of the steel beam running across the basement... no way to fish wire without smashing out drywall. Would like to avoid adding another switch.
 

300rag

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I tried to place the new fixture on series with the black wire going to the switch. I see the error in this because if that light burned out, it would take out the other lights. Going "across" the switch would keep things energized all the time.

So I guess I'm stumped for how to make this work from the switch. "Daisychaining" like I did for the center fixture isn't really an option because of the steel beam running across the basement... no way to fish wire without smashing out drywall. Would like to avoid adding another switch.
You need to get a new 2-wire to any of the fixtures, unless you are able to replace the existing 2-wire from the switch to the existing light with a 3-wire to pick up the neutral for the new fixture.
 

Joseph James

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I tried to place the new fixture on series with the black wire going to the switch. I see the error in this because if that light burned out, it would take out the other lights. Going "across" the switch would keep things energized all the time.

So I guess I'm stumped for how to make this work from the switch. "Daisychaining" like I did for the center fixture isn't really an option because of the steel beam running across the basement... no way to fish wire without smashing out drywall. Would like to avoid adding another switch.

I’m not a fan of offering advice online because I can’t eyeball it. You sound like you know what you are doing and understand the concepts.

If you tie in with another light on the circuit it should work just fine. My vote is cut drywall where you have to. Last resort (for me) is surface raceway (aka wiremold), but only if there is no other way.

I’ll add my pet peeve for the hell of it. White wire is a grounded conductor, not a neutral.
 

HWYCRZR

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You are Ok to hook your black wire of your new fixture to the switched circuit on your switch (terminal with no power when switch is off). But your issue as @300rag stated above is that you now need to find a neutral wire within this same circuit to attach your other side of your new fixture to. That's why end of circuit switches are no fun, There is no neutral to connect to.
 

Joseph James

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You are Ok to hook your black wire of your new fixture to the switched circuit on your switch (terminal with no power when switch is off). But your issue as @300rag stated above is that you now need to find a neutral wire within this same circuit to attach your other side of your new fixture to. That's why end of circuit switches are no fun, There is no neutral to connect to.
You can’t grab a random grounded conductor.
 

300rag

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I’m not a fan of offering advice online because I can’t eyeball it. You sound like you know what you are doing and understand the concepts.

If you tie in with another light on the circuit it should work just fine. My vote is cut drywall where you have to. Last resort (for me) is surface raceway (aka wiremold), but only if there is no other way.

I’ll add my pet peeve for the hell of it. White wire is a grounded conductor, not a neutral.
Actually according to the Canadian Electrical Code, it is called the "identified conductor". :rolleyes::rolleyes:

2018 Code —Identified conductor required at every control location.
Control devices are increasingly used as an essential part of energy management systems. Many of these devices require power to operate, and where used in a simple switch loop, create a small current through the bonding conductor. As the number of devices increase, the cumulative current through the bonding system will become unacceptable.
New Subrule 4-028(2) now mandates that an identified conductor be installed at each manual or automatic control location. This requirement applies to all occupancy types. The term “neutral” has been replaced with the more accurate term “identified conductor”."

Sorry Carmine.
 

300rag

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Same, but different.

"According to the CEC a grounding conductor is the main electrode driven into the ground, which protects the electrical equipment from overloading when a power surge occurs or lightning strikes the electrical wires. This would be called a grounding electrode conductor by the NEC.


According to the NEC a grounded conductor is a wire which runs through the electrical system, commonly referred to as a neutral wire, and serves as a current return path for electrical services. This is what the CEC refers to as an identified conductor."
 

Joseph James

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Actually according to the Canadian Electrical Code, it is called the "identified conductor". :rolleyes::rolleyes:

2018 Code —Identified conductor required at every control location.
Control devices are increasingly used as an essential part of energy management systems. Many of these devices require power to operate, and where used in a simple switch loop, create a small current through the bonding conductor. As the number of devices increase, the cumulative current through the bonding system will become unacceptable.
New Subrule 4-028(2) now mandates that an identified conductor be installed at each manual or automatic control location. This requirement applies to all occupancy types. The term “neutral” has been replaced with the more accurate term “identified conductor”."

Sorry Carmine.
Canada? I work out of NEC. Canada allows for a lot of stuff we can’t do in the US. But grounded conductor has always been around in NEC, at least since I started in 1999.
 

Joseph James

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Same, but different.

"According to the CEC a grounding conductor is the main electrode driven into the ground, which protects the electrical equipment from overloading when a power surge occurs or lightning strikes the electrical wires. This would be called a grounding electrode conductor by the NEC.


According to the NEC a grounded conductor is a wire which runs through the electrical system, commonly referred to as a neutral wire, and serves as a current return path for electrical services. This is what the CEC refers to as an identified conductor."
I understand “commonly referred to” but they serve different purposes. So, not only do your conductors have to be in the same raceway, but a grounded conductor carries the same current your ungrounded conductor does, which is why you don’t grab a random one. You could overload the conductor.

As for OP, I would cut drywall, fish wire. Patch and paint (I call a painter because I don’t know what I am doing with drywall)
 

Carmine

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First of all, thanks to everyone that responded. Mostly what I needed to know was that there was no way to do it using the switch wiring. I abandoned that idea and took a hard look at running new wires from an existing fixture.

I had left the old cans in place. They were so large that the actual LED "electronics" fit inside of them. I removed one of them and could see enough of the channel created by the drywall to realize I could fish a new wire over the steel beam. Which is what I did. In concept, it's all working now.

I say "concept" because I finally decided these smaller LED panels are such shit that I didn't want them in my house. By that I mean the following...

I used one right off the bat at the bottom of a stairwell. After about 24 hours of actual usage it started to flicker, then go out, then come back on. I had purchased three of these, but decided two would be enough, so I chalked it up to random bad luck and swapped it.

Moving on to today... installed in the second location and as I was pushing it into the supplied retainer, it failed. Then I smelled burnt electronics. I was gentle when handling it (you'll see why). So I said "screw this unreliable crap" and took all of them down.

Take a look at how it mounts and tell me how this earned an ETL certification? (Of course we all know of UL or CSA, but there are a dozen articles saying they're all equal... which likely means they are not.) Anyway, look at how the wires are right next to a sharp metal edge that requires a press fit? You'd probably nick one or the other, so instead of a short, you'd just make the fixture live. Of course "Patriot" brand assures me they're made in a sweatshop, but what isn't? I've seen plenty of big-name brand fixtures made in Chyna as well. I think I'll go write a review on this junk.

IMG_20200422_1902398.jpg


IMG_20200422_1902549.jpg
 

Gerald Morris

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It could even be WORSE than sino-sewage......INDIAN! "Made in India" now floats in the Great American Cesspool Economy, outstinking chinese filth for abominable Kwollittee. Hey, Donnie! How about a little REAL Protectionism instead of just Hispanophobia to please the inbreeds with a Scofield Bible in their outhouses.....
 

3175375

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Yes, I did do some online searching.

It seems the end-of-circuit switch isn't that common, at least on the interwebs. There is also a new code requiring a capped neutral, which junks up the search results and isn't relevant since I'm not ripping out the ceiling on the chance someone wants to add "connected home" devices to the basement xx years into the future on a house I plan to sell this summer. Hopefully my graphic shows the issue...

View attachment 370640
The diagram that is posted is incomplete. The switch goes nowhere. Share the existing way (schematic) the circuit is physically wired and how you plan on adding to it. I can’t tell how things are wired (except for the 3 lamps - that have no source)...
 

Carmine

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The diagram that is posted is incomplete. The switch goes nowhere. Share the existing way (schematic) the circuit is physically wired and how you plan on adding to it. I can’t tell how things are wired (except for the 3 lamps - that have no source)...

It's incomplete because everything is covered in drywall. But the diagram explains it's an end-of-line switch, which is the relevant part. I just wanted to know if I could add a fixture between the switch and the other fixtures, and apparently the answer was "no". So I tapped another fixture. Resolved now.
 

Joseph James

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First of all, thanks to everyone that responded. Mostly what I needed to know was that there was no way to do it using the switch wiring. I abandoned that idea and took a hard look at running new wires from an existing fixture.

I had left the old cans in place. They were so large that the actual LED "electronics" fit inside of them. I removed one of them and could see enough of the channel created by the drywall to realize I could fish a new wire over the steel beam. Which is what I did. In concept, it's all working now.

I say "concept" because I finally decided these smaller LED panels are such shit that I didn't want them in my house. By that I mean the following...

I used one right off the bat at the bottom of a stairwell. After about 24 hours of actual usage it started to flicker, then go out, then come back on. I had purchased three of these, but decided two would be enough, so I chalked it up to random bad luck and swapped it.

Moving on to today... installed in the second location and as I was pushing it into the supplied retainer, it failed. Then I smelled burnt electronics. I was gentle when handling it (you'll see why). So I said "screw this unreliable crap" and took all of them down.

Take a look at how it mounts and tell me how this earned an ETL certification? (Of course we all know of UL or CSA, but there are a dozen articles saying they're all equal... which likely means they are not.) Anyway, look at how the wires are right next to a sharp metal edge that requires a press fit? You'd probably nick one or the other, so instead of a short, you'd just make the fixture live. Of course "Patriot" brand assures me they're made in a sweatshop, but what isn't? I've seen plenty of big-name brand fixtures made in Chyna as well. I think I'll go write a review on this junk.

View attachment 370689

View attachment 370690
I run into crap like this a lot. Our buyer I have to go through picks the cheapest junk for our facility.
 
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