Firm feel Power steering box

[mag162]

Is it really worth the price of admission?
The charge for it is $420 for the stage 2 and a 250 core charge. Is that price worth the upgrade from a rebuilt standard box. Is it night and day? Will my wagon steer much better than a rebuilt box from autozone or Napa for $120

 

[Davea Lux]

Is it really worth the price of admission?
The charge for it is $420 for the stage 2 and a 250 core charge. Is that price worth the upgrade from a rebuilt standard box. Is it night and day? Will my wagon steer much better than a rebuilt box from autozone or Napa for $120

The firm feel box is tighter and somewhat smoother on turns. In a wagon, this is over kill, so I would probably stay with a quality rebuilt stock unit.
Auto Zone is probably not the place to get one of those as most of their rebuilt stuff is of Cardone remanufacture, not noted for high quality.
Napa used to sell better quality stuff, but I would check first to see whose line of remanufactured boxes they sell, generally if a box was rebuilt in either South America or China, the quality control is highly suspect.

The other choice would be to have your existing unit rebuilt at a quality rebuilder, which is what I now do when a need a new unit.

Dave

 

[BigblueC]

Will my wagon steer much better than a rebuilt box from autozone or Napa for $120

I can't speak on the Firm Feel boxes, they may or may not be worth it, but I would say that just a simple rebuild of your current box would be better than anything autozone, NAPA, or the like can offer. The stuff offered at the parts store are generally built to bare minimum specs, hence the price difference. So if your steering box is worn out, I'd suggest having your current box rebuilt instead of going the parts store rout.

 

[blsdave]

I replaced my steering box earlier this year and couldn't decide which route to take either.
i figured up the shipping and core charges, and i ended up going with the borgeson box. A little overkill, but i like it. Just drove it this weekend at 70 mph with zero wandering.
When i pulled my column out, my actual problem was the biscuit was shot and causing the scary steering. So don't overlook that as a potential problem.

 

[68 4spd Fury]

Saw these a while back, never bought one or heard anything + or - about them, an option.

New Steel Manual Steering Gear Box for 1966-1982 Mopar 16:1 Quick Ratio Dodge | eBay

 

[Dodgy Dick]

I'm going through the time to fix my Power Steering box leak and wary of getting ripped off by repairers! Question... How long should it take to remove and replace the unit in my '69 Fury ??
R

 

[Davea Lux]

I'm going through the time to fix my Power Steering box leak and wary of getting ripped off by repairers! Question... How long should it take to remove and replace the unit in my '69 Fury ??
R

This is going to depend a lot on the skill level of the person doing the work. The Pitman arm needs to be removed from the steering linkage (arm can be removed from the gear once the unit is out). Usually works best to unbolt the steering column from under the dash and from the floor. There is a roll pin that holds the coupling to the steering gear that needs to be removed, once that is out, the coupling can be slid back to clear the gear. Next the hoses and mounting bolts for the the steering gear are removed and the gear can be taken out of the car. If you remove the hoses and plug them, it makes the job a little less messy. This should be about a 1 1/2 to 2 hour job.

Dave

 

[Trace 300 Hurst]

Is it really worth the price of admission?

...but I would say that just a simple rebuild of your current box would be better than anything autozone, NAPA, or the like can offer. The stuff offered at the parts store are generally built to bare minimum specs, hence the price difference. So if your steering box is worn out, I'd suggest having your current box rebuilt instead of going the parts store rout.

I just ordered a new power box and Pitman (and hoses) from Firm Feel to replace my old, leaky stuff. Yeah, it's pricey, but if you read the article in the most recent Muscle Machines about the THREE trips to the NAPA-Advanced-Zone store to get a box that worked, you'd seriously consider spending the money for something that you absolutely know will be fantastic. Maybe you'll get that from a chain store....maybe not.

We all know that FF gets rave reviews from all the Mopar experts, FWIW.

Incidentally, they recommended the Stage 1 power box for big, slow cars like ours. That, and maximum positive caster. I'll also be rebuilding my pot coupling, and taking a close look at the rubber biscuit.

Once I install this stuff, I'll head to a reliable, old-school front end shop to determine tie-rod and ball joint condition, alignment, etc.

 

[garyh]

Check Rockauto, I got one for my '71 GTX.
Lares was the brand.

 

[saforwardlook]

I replaced my steering box earlier this year and couldn't decide which route to take either.
i figured up the shipping and core charges, and i ended up going with the borgeson box. A little overkill, but i like it. Just drove it this weekend at 70 mph with zero wandering.
When i pulled my column out, my actual problem was the biscuit was shot and causing the scary steering. So don't overlook that as a potential problem.

Tell me more about the Borgenson box. Does it feel as good as modern steering systems that use rack and pinion? My 97 Concorde has the latter, and the road feel is perfect and precise and you know you have complete control of where you are going with zero need for correction of the steering wheel as you go down the highway. With standard Chrysler boxes in our older cars even when new, they are a little too light, do not give precise roadback or a precision feel, and I find myself having to correct too often just trying to go straight down the highway. And this is with maximum positive caster and a new biscuit. What did your new box cost and where did you get it - directly from the manufacturer probably? Were any modifications required to install it and does it look much the same as the original box when looking from topside the engine compartment? Any photos would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Trace 300 Hurst]

I thought it might be helpful to toss these two articles into the info stream:

Mopars on Steeroids

1962-1982 Mopar Complete Power Steering Conversion Kits - Hot Rod Network

 

[Frank Odenthal]

Tell me more about the Borgenson box. Does it feel as good as modern steering systems that use rack and pinion? My 97 Concorde has the latter, and the road feel is perfect and precise and you know you have complete control of where you are going with zero need for correction of the steering wheel as you go down the highway. With standard Chrysler boxes in our older cars even when new, they are a little too light, do not give precise roadback or a precision feel, and I find myself having to correct too often just trying to go straight down the highway. And this is with maximum positive caster and a new biscuit. What did your new box cost and where did you get it - directly from the manufacturer probably? Were any modifications required to install it and does it look much the same as the original box when looking from topside the engine compartment? Any photos would be appreciated. Thanks.

That is a comparison picture of Borgeson and oem Part. The Borgeson Box is smaller and light whigt compared to the OE Box. It has a quicker Ratio (approximativ. half a Turn less lock to lock). It has no noticable lash and requires slightly higher Steering effort. This swap is still not like a new vehicle with rack and pinion steering. You would Need to modify complete frontend.
You would also Need to have a good ps pump. I followed the borgeson recommendation and bought a new pump and hose set all at once. I like the new steering feel. I feel much safer than before with a cardone rebuild box which was horrible.

 

[Frank Odenthal]

PS: I have also switched to the borgeson coupling which makes a big difference in centerfeel without any sloppy feeling. It just feels right now on the Autobahn.

 

[saforwardlook]

PS: I have also switched to the borgeson coupling which makes a big difference in centerfeel without any sloppy feeling. It just feels right now on the Autobahn.

I appreciate your report from Germany, Frank. I really didn't expect that it would feel like modern rack and pinion, but hopefully much closer like your result.

In my case, I am completely restoring the front ends on my vehicles and so I think, after reading a lot of articles on the box, I will start with installation of an NOS factory box from Chrysler that I have a few of in my storage stock and see just how satisfied I am with them after I get the alignment done with maximum caster. If the steering doesn't feel precise then I will likely switch over to a Borgeson box as well. Some of my cars are better than others in terms of precision, but the reasons may be varied. Best wishes...........

 

[saforwardlook]

I thought it might be helpful to toss these two articles into the info stream:

Mopars on Steeroids

1962-1982 Mopar Complete Power Steering Conversion Kits - Hot Rod Network

Maybe when you get your installation completed, you might check in again with this thread and provide your assessment of the difference you are experiencing too. Thanks.

 

[Trace 300 Hurst]

The report from Germany was outstanding. It gives all of us fine information to consider.

Regarding my FF box install (when they send it to me in 4 weeks!!), I will absolutely provide an unbiased report, despite the fact that I've spent a bundle with them. Fortunately, my Total Bundle Allotment Situation Program is still comfortably in the green zone, so I can be somewhat fair.

Having said that, my OEM box at 116000 miles is a mystery navigation system, so I can only imagine what it might be like to reduce the 110 degrees of steering input on a straight road to something like.....45 degrees!

 

[Gerald Morris]

Good stuff to know. I've just ordered a BBB steering box from Parts Geek, as I don't have the $$ for either Firm Feel or Borgeson just now. I read Ehrenberg's article earlier today. I plan to stick w the Chrysler rubber coupler also, having obtained the Lares replacement rubber from Rock, and a rebuild kit from Ehrenberg's ePay store.... Will post around Turkey Day, God willing.

 

[Trace 300 Hurst]

I plan to stick w the Chrysler rubber coupler also, having obtained the Lares replacement rubber from Rock, and a rebuild kit from Ehrenberg's ePay store....

Can you point us to that rubber "rag joint" from Rock, please. Is it Lares 217? On the Lare website, they don't show that item. ???

By Ehrenberg's rebuild kit, you mean for the pot coupler, correct?

 

[Trace 300 Hurst]

I just got off the phone with Lare's. That 217 item that Rock sells is NOT a rag joint. It's some sort of coupler that the guy (Earl) at Lare's couldn't quite explain clearly to me....something about internal to the steering column, and he couldn't point me to a picture of it on their own website....where they show all sorts of other parts and rag joints. He said "We don't make a rag joint for Chryslers."

Kits, Filters, Fittings & Couplers - Lares Corporation

You probably shouldn't buy this:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=8889868&cc=1440829&jsn=396&jsn=396&jsn=396

So...where do we get rag joints?

 

[Gerald Morris]

I just got off the phone with Lare's. That 217 item that Rock sells is NOT a rag joint. It's some sort of coupler that the guy (Earl) at Lare's couldn't quite explain clearly to me....something about internal to the steering column, and he couldn't point me to a picture of it on their own website....where they show all sorts of other parts and rag joints. He said "We don't make a rag joint for Chryslers."

Kits, Filters, Fittings & Couplers - Lares Corporation

You probably shouldn't buy this:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=8889868&cc=1440829&jsn=396&jsn=396&jsn=396

So...where do we get rag joints?

NOWHERE did I assert that the coupler insulator WAS a rag joint rubber. It fits INSIDE the coupler. I never typed "rag joint" in my post.

Ehrenberg's coupler kit is meant for just that, the coupler, as is the INSULATOR from Lares. Together this will do nicely to totally refit my coupler, which I then will clip down with the approved and prescribed Mopar stainless steel clip, given that the coupler pot is now 53 yrs old and will assuredly be "disturbed" to use Mopar's syntax.

There appear to be 2 sources for a complete new rag joint for our land-barges who make them in limited quantity as needed.

Borgeson Power and Manual Steering Rag Joint Coupler Deluxe

Steering Rag Joint Coupling Disc Replacement

I pray I won't need that, but might just hire a local shop to cut and drill the rubber disk for the rag joint in the near future. I'll look into Dorman's offerings carefully here too. Not too hopeful about them but if they offer a rubber disc of the right diameter, I can easily knock up a drilling guide and do the rest. There are some polyurethane discs out there too. Hmmm, I might look into THAT now that I think of it.

FWIW there abound universal joints meant to replace the coupler and even the rag joint, which I considered. But if Mopar engineers of the day saw fit to use rubber cushioning for the steering column, I'm not one to casually defy their judgement. This isn't a purism compulsion here either; just a careful judgement to alter the status quo as little as possible aside from stopping a hydraulic fluid hemorrhage.