Ford Has Everything Already Thought Out for Us Collectors

Big_John

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Early-on, it was unclear whether gas, electric or steam would become the dominant type of vehicle. Each had advantages and disadvantages. Electric was easiest to operate but was limited in range and speed, and also had to remain in cities because of lack of charging infrastructure in the countryside. Gasoline was difficult to start and operate (hand-crank start, transmission with clutch due to narrow torque band, manual fuel mixture controls, etc). It had a long theoretical range, as long as you carried fuel with you. There wasn't a gas station on every corner like there is today. Steam was easiest to fuel (kerosene, water), had lots of usable torque, but it had the longest start-up time and was akin to operating a miniature steam locomotive.

Bill Lear (Lear Jets and 8-track tapes) started developing a steam engine Indy car in 1969. I remember reading about it back then.
Lear Steam Car
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GM also collaborated on a couple prototypes in 1969.
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This Experimental '69 Chevelle Is Powered by Steam

Henry Kaiser had a Kaiser Darrin converted to steam in the 50's.

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/20...team-it-nearly-led-to-crate-steam-car-engines



The last practical production steam car was the Doble. Another fascinating car that was still being produced in 1931.
Doble steam car - Wikipedia

doble_0020.jpg


The steam engine fascinate me. I've seen Stanley Steamer engines and they are tiny little things that directly drive the rear end. Simplicity itself with no transmission. They make the same torque at zero RPM that they do at full speed.

I got to ride in this Stanley Steamer a couple years ago. That was on my bucket list!
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BigblueC

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I chose to overlook them, as did most of the other commenters on this thread. However, you chose to dive in head-first in comment #26

Steve found it relevant to state originally, I found it relevant to rebut that statement all in the name of conversation. I prefer to confront things rather than sidestep.

Electric was easiest to operate but was limited in range and speed, and also had to remain in cities because of lack of charging infrastructure in the countryside.

Speed is no longer an issue but range and charge time are, which is mostly what I was referring to when saying EVs haven't made significant changes.

no demand, no infrastructure, no product development. You need all 3 to be successful.

I agree and understand that is why EV development went stagnant for decades.

It basically took Tesla to show that electric cars don't have to be just "city cars"

While they certainly have better range today, they are still more or less "city cars". I would not suggest trying to drive one from my place to yours and get there in a timely manner. I also don't believe that a modern EV would hold up to my daily work demands. This is one of my biggest push-backs against the EV push, which happens to be politically/financially driven as stated previously. If EVs were as good as they are touted to be, they wouldn't have to force people to buy one.
 

BigblueC

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Bill Lear (Lear Jets and 8-track tapes) started developing a steam engine Indy car in 1969. I remember reading about it back then.
Lear Steam Car
View attachment 495679

GM also collaborated on a couple prototypes in 1969.
View attachment 495680
View attachment 495681

This Experimental '69 Chevelle Is Powered by Steam

Henry Kaiser had a Kaiser Darrin converted to steam in the 50's.

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/20...team-it-nearly-led-to-crate-steam-car-engines



The last practical production steam car was the Doble. Another fascinating car that was still being produced in 1931.
Doble steam car - Wikipedia

View attachment 495682

The steam engine fascinate me. I've seen Stanley Steamer engines and they are tiny little things that directly drive the rear end. Simplicity itself with no transmission. They make the same torque at zero RPM that they do at full speed.

I got to ride in this Stanley Steamer a couple years ago. That was on my bucket list!
View attachment 495683

View attachment 495684

View attachment 495685

Pretty interesting. I've never heard of that Lear car or of GMs steam stuff. I'm guessing that you like the big steam tractors too.
upload_2021-11-5_15-45-55.png
 

3175375

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Bill Lear (Lear Jets and 8-track tapes) started developing a steam engine Indy car in 1969. I remember reading about it back then.
Lear Steam Car
View attachment 495679

GM also collaborated on a couple prototypes in 1969.
View attachment 495680
View attachment 495681

This Experimental '69 Chevelle Is Powered by Steam

Henry Kaiser had a Kaiser Darrin converted to steam in the 50's.

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/20...team-it-nearly-led-to-crate-steam-car-engines



The last practical production steam car was the Doble. Another fascinating car that was still being produced in 1931.
Doble steam car - Wikipedia

View attachment 495682

The steam engine fascinate me. I've seen Stanley Steamer engines and they are tiny little things that directly drive the rear end. Simplicity itself with no transmission. They make the same torque at zero RPM that they do at full speed.

I got to ride in this Stanley Steamer a couple years ago. That was on my bucket list!
View attachment 495683

View attachment 495684

View attachment 495685
FO and FE Stanley were geniuses.
 

BigblueC

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If you think EVs are not here to stay

They've never really gone away and I don't think anyone has stated that they will. They have their place, just not for me.

Investors know who the winners will be

That's not a good statement. How many investors are in with Zillow right now as they start collapsing? But I think I get your point. It's not hard to read the writing-on-the-wall when governments say they will be mandating EV purchases, a guaranteed product sale for a while, and they also invest their personal money. But when Pelosi sells her Tesla stock, I suggest everyone else do the same.

A bunch of tired old men who are alarmed at a changing future

Well that's not me, carry on.

(edit: I don't know why the image is stuck below)
upload_2021-11-5_15-49-20.png
 

saforwardlook

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I wanted to include this in my post above but it took this old man a little too long to find it!! :steering:

But I persisted, so here it is: AD #3197 – Ford Wants to Be More Like Tesla; VW Reveals All-New ID.5; EVs Take Longer to Repair

Company CEOs don't operate on the basis of conspiracy theories and lies to ensure they will be successes, rather they rely on the truth and face it and deal with it intelligently.

I am glad that spirit is still alive in this country among some folks.

Otherwise, we end up being one of those so-called "shit holes".
 
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BigblueC

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Company CEOs don't operate on the basis of conspiracy theories and lies to ensure they will be successes, rather they rely on the truth and face it and deal with it intelligently.

What conspiracy theory are you hinting at?

Dodge CEO Tim Kuniskis: “The days of an iron block supercharged 6.2-liter V-8 are numbered” “They’re absolutely numbered because of all the compliance costs.”

This video from Dodge has been posted before, so you have probably seen it, but it's the public comments I would like to draw your attention to. Skimming through I'd say the majority are negative, or neutral at best, toward EVs. That is what the market i.e. consumer is saying. Are these corporations paying attention to what the consumer is saying? Or are they putting all of their proverbial eggs in the government mandate basket? Which "truth" will they choose?


A short scroll past the ones talking about how confusing the statement is
Mr_ R/T
3 months ago
As long as they continue to make Hemi V8s for a while I’m good
Frank Vucak
3 months ago
The whole video is an apology

Daniel Mora
3 months ago
Idc if there’s a million electric cars, I’ll always prefer the engine. A pure engine.
Shikha Soni
3 months ago
"Tear up the streets, not the planet" Producing li-ion batteries and motors is definitely not gonna tear up the planet, is it?
 

BigblueC

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Extrapolating the above comments from Youtube and assuming the below data is accurate, I'd say EVs aren't popular with "the kids".

upload_2021-11-5_17-35-38.png
 

BigblueC

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I would be interested in the assumptions they used 6 years ago.

I've looked but haven't found that specific paper yet. I keep finding papers about the cost (operating) of EV fleets. Obviously not what I'm looking for. I'll try looking again. It'd help if I could remember the name.
 

bnz84

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I believe you, I looked too. You can find anything out there and some things go away after awhile. I just want to compare studies that conflict and see why... if I'm smart enough. I also like the idea of trying to include and entire life cycle. I work in data and would like to incorporate more of that in my work.
 

saforwardlook

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What conspiracy theory are you hinting at?

Dodge CEO Tim Kuniskis: “The days of an iron block supercharged 6.2-liter V-8 are numbered” “They’re absolutely numbered because of all the compliance costs.”

This video from Dodge has been posted before, so you have probably seen it, but it's the public comments I would like to draw your attention to. Skimming through I'd say the majority are negative, or neutral at best, toward EVs. That is what the market i.e. consumer is saying. Are these corporations paying attention to what the consumer is saying? Or are they putting all of their proverbial eggs in the government mandate basket? Which "truth" will they choose?


A short scroll past the ones talking about how confusing the statement is
Mr_ R/T
3 months ago
As long as they continue to make Hemi V8s for a while I’m good
Frank Vucak
3 months ago
The whole video is an apology

Daniel Mora
3 months ago
Idc if there’s a million electric cars, I’ll always prefer the engine. A pure engine.
Shikha Soni
3 months ago
"Tear up the streets, not the planet" Producing li-ion batteries and motors is definitely not gonna tear up the planet, is it?


The issue is climate change - you can believe the atmospheric scientists or those who trust their "gut" to give us the correct answer. Compliance costs that are being referred to are fuel economy standards, safety standards that even EVs have to meet, problems with gasoline engines that cause increases in smog emissions from gasoline/diesel engines and the cost of developing On-Board Diagnostic systems to detect problems that individually increase emissions so a technician has some hope of being able to find the problem part(s)/fix them and so on and the never ending costs of dealing with continuously deteriorating gasoline/diesel engines over time whose maintenance costs just keep on climbing until the owner decides to dump them. Electric vehicles don't really have much of any maintenance relative to the propulsion system or compliance related to them because they aren't needed. Every EV maker wants maximum efficiency so range can be as good as possible and battery costs can be kept down.

I really doubt that Tesla would have any problem smoking any hybrid gasoline/EV that Mr. Kuniskis wants to develop and market and Musk will do it more inexpensively. So Mr. Kuniskis will always lose in the long run just because gasoline engines will have to go if there is any hope of dealing with the issues ahead that the scientists say are definitely coming. EV makers are continuously working to minimize any negative effects on the planet and that is also in its infancy and not being overlooked by any stretch either, including the batteries that will keep on improving. Ford stressed that point in their comment about watching where every electron goes................

I love my gasoline vintage vehicles too, but I also realize there are some limits that are staring us in the face like it or not. So I would like to see EVs flourish so we have some chance of still keeping our vintage vehicles on the road for as long as possible............................

I also really don't see where the performance of Hellcats and such can really be utilized in most of the cities in this country either, so I don't need to cling to that "need" in my life and let it overwhelm other real concerns.
 

BigblueC

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Steve, thanks for continuing to respond. I hope your understand there is no ill will behind my post, and I hope there is none behind yours (I don't think so). Anyways, I love to challenge and be challenged. It's how we get somewhere in life and in conversation, and I know that I can be abrasive sometimes, especially the way I talk/text.

So here's some more challenging for you :poke:

The issue is climate change - you can believe the atmospheric scientists
gasoline engines will have to go if there is any hope of dealing with the issues ahead that the scientists say are definitely coming.

What scientist do you speak of specifically? What exactly are they saying? Are you referring to the tired media bs headline of "97% of scientist", 97% of whom don't agree with that media statement? I remember not too many years ago NOAA & NASA were accused by quite a few scientist of cooking the books. So specifically who is saying what in that regard?

Compliance costs that are being referred to are fuel economy standards

That alone is what is being referred to, the ever increasing arbitrary numbers that are often above and beyond current reality. When governments can't control something they try to regulate it out of existence. Our political class now has a vested interest in EVs, of which the masses (market) does not want for one reason or another. So now they will be attempting to force people into buying EVs to protect their assets.

If you want to understand what is happening regarding politics you 1) follow the money, 2) understand there are no coincidences in politics. See my previous Pelosi example for reference (no she isn't the only one, just the biggest target)

I really doubt that Tesla would have any problem smoking any hybrid gasoline/EV that Mr. Kuniskis wants to develop

On a lighter note there are plenty of videos out of Teslas giving some Hellcats a run, but the 'cats tend to beat them at the end. From the videos I've seen it appears these Teslas are AWD and have minimal traction issues.

I also really don't see where the performance of Hellcats and such can really be utilized in most of the cities in this country either

I'm with you on that. While I'd like to have one of two of these newer vehicles to have fun with (like your brothers new Porsche), these new cars and trucks are ridiculously fast and just way too powerful for the common idiot. There's plenty of videos of that kind of stupidity online.
 

John Kirby

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It's 2021 and I'm still waiting for the flying cars we were supposed to have by now.

Not quite a flying car...
Zenith Aircraft Company

Build it yourself for around $60K. Get licensed for around 2K. Can run on 87 octane car gas. Cruise at 120+mph for hours at a time with no cops to bother you. If you have some flat land you can takeoff and land on your own property. I'm looking into it.
 

John Kirby

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---What scientist do you speak of specifically? What exactly are they saying? Are you referring to the tired media bs headline of "97% of scientist", 97% of whom don't agree with that media statement? I remember not too many years ago NOAA & NASA were accused by quite a few scientist of cooking the books. So specifically who is saying what in that regard?---

The is plenty of documentation the oil industry has taken the tobacco industries methods and lied to us for decades about the impending climate problem. As a general rule, when money is involved, don't believe a lot of what a company says. They all lie to you, it's called advertising.

The issues with electric vehicles will be resolved over time. The biggest issue is limited range with few charging options. The obvious solution is a universal battery pack design for all manufacturers. They could be swapped out when drained in a few minutes. Similar to when you go to a gas station and fill up now. Current gas stations will need to be updated to deal with this.

Oil isn't going away. But we do need to address the climate problems. A dramatic reduction in consumption is the only real option. I wouldn't invest it that industry long term.
 

saforwardlook

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Steve, thanks for continuing to respond. I hope your understand there is no ill will behind my post, and I hope there is none behind yours (I don't think so). Anyways, I love to challenge and be challenged. It's how we get somewhere in life and in conversation, and I know that I can be abrasive sometimes, especially the way I talk/text.

So here's some more challenging for you :poke:




What scientist do you speak of specifically? What exactly are they saying? Are you referring to the tired media bs headline of "97% of scientist", 97% of whom don't agree with that media statement? I remember not too many years ago NOAA & NASA were accused by quite a few scientist of cooking the books. So specifically who is saying what in that regard?



That alone is what is being referred to, the ever increasing arbitrary numbers that are often above and beyond current reality. When governments can't control something they try to regulate it out of existence. Our political class now has a vested interest in EVs, of which the masses (market) does not want for one reason or another. So now they will be attempting to force people into buying EVs to protect their assets.

If you want to understand what is happening regarding politics you 1) follow the money, 2) understand there are no coincidences in politics. See my previous Pelosi example for reference (no she isn't the only one, just the biggest target)



On a lighter note there are plenty of videos out of Teslas giving some Hellcats a run, but the 'cats tend to beat them at the end. From the videos I've seen it appears these Teslas are AWD and have minimal traction issues.



I'm with you on that. While I'd like to have one of two of these newer vehicles to have fun with (like your brothers new Porsche), these new cars and trucks are ridiculously fast and just way too powerful for the common idiot. There's plenty of videos of that kind of stupidity online.
 

saforwardlook

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Steve, thanks for continuing to respond. I hope your understand there is no ill will behind my post, and I hope there is none behind yours (I don't think so). Anyways, I love to challenge and be challenged. It's how we get somewhere in life and in conversation, and I know that I can be abrasive sometimes, especially the way I talk/text.

So here's some more challenging for you :poke:




What scientist do you speak of specifically? What exactly are they saying? Are you referring to the tired media bs headline of "97% of scientist", 97% of whom don't agree with that media statement? I remember not too many years ago NOAA & NASA were accused by quite a few scientist of cooking the books. So specifically who is saying what in that regard?



That alone is what is being referred to, the ever increasing arbitrary numbers that are often above and beyond current reality. When governments can't control something they try to regulate it out of existence. Our political class now has a vested interest in EVs, of which the masses (market) does not want for one reason or another. So now they will be attempting to force people into buying EVs to protect their assets.

If you want to understand what is happening regarding politics you 1) follow the money, 2) understand there are no coincidences in politics. See my previous Pelosi example for reference (no she isn't the only one, just the biggest target)



On a lighter note there are plenty of videos out of Teslas giving some Hellcats a run, but the 'cats tend to beat them at the end. From the videos I've seen it appears these Teslas are AWD and have minimal traction issues.



I'm with you on that. While I'd like to have one of two of these newer vehicles to have fun with (like your brothers new Porsche), these new cars and trucks are ridiculously fast and just way too powerful for the common idiot. There's plenty of videos of that kind of stupidity online.

No ill-will taken and none on my part either.

Rather than participate in this discussion further though, I have learned over time that I can use my remaining time on the planet much more usefully to work on some of the cars I yet want to get done rather than banter back and forth on subjects like this one on this site.

I agree that a more capable gasoline/electric hybrid Hellcat that Kuniskis alludes to will be more capable than today's versions. EVs are more capable off the line but gasoline engines can have greater top speeds but like you said, there really is no practical place where they can be reasonably utilized, so I am not sure what he really is talking about so excitedly especially when they will likely be priced even higher than current non-hybrid versions as well.

I personally believe the climate scientists in general because I can see and acknowledge what they are concerned about is already apparent if one if looking for evidence. Even Canada is experiencing some really high temperatures that are incredible and a lot of atmospheric instability continues to rise all around us resulting in raging fires and drought extending to borders north of California too now, greater floods around the world and so on.

Tesla has demonstrated that EVs are practical for many reasons now and they require far less maintenance than gasoline/diesel engines. There are no oil changes, spark plugs to replace and on and on................

Recent consumer surveys I have seen indicate that once most folks buy an EV, they don't ever want to go back to gasoline versions. Yes, problems remain but they will gradually be addressed over time.

Yes, there is much more to be done in many areas and battery recycling is being very actively considered and much work continues. But there are many options yet to explore to improve the effects of batteries on the planet and industry is exploring those intensely.

The auto industry has been skeptical about climate change for some time now but they are very quickly finding that Tesla is outperforming them big time and they clearly have reason to be worried. The blunt reactions you heard about on the Autoline Daily clip above from Jim Farley CEO at Ford and Herbert Diess, Chairman at VW speak volumes about a huge shakeup coming for the auto industry and its dealers.

Stay tuned..................over and out.......................
 
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Marv

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VW and the whole German car industrie refused to go the EV path until a couple of years ago they´ve been more or less forced by government.
And to my opinion they knew why. I think max. marketshare for EVs will be 30%. Our electric power infrastructure simply can´t handle more.
People in rural areas parking at the sidewalk don´t have access to chargers unless driving somewhere and waiting for an hour instead of refueling within 5 minutes. Even in areas with single family homes struggle. In my neighborhood only 30% of the houses can get a wallbox because the power lines is not constructed to serve everybody with the power for your house plus charging an EV.

No imagine California in summer, everybody has the ac running, power demand is at the peak and now add 30 million EVs ... welcome to blackout-ville.

Climate change is happening. It is too late already. In order to prevent a further global warming we need to cut per person emissions around the globe significantly. But instead wealth is spreading in China, India and Africa and people use the money to consume more meat, buy more clothes, smartphones, cars and plane tickets. The per person emissions are rising and be 2050 we are supposed to be 10 billion people... it´s too late, I´m sorry for all the kids being born now, because they will suffer from it. The second half of this century will really suck
 

fc7_plumcrazy

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Climate change is happening. It is too late already. In order to prevent a further global warming we need to cut per person emissions around the globe significantly. But instead wealth is spreading in China, India and Africa and people use the money to consume more meat, buy more clothes, smartphones, cars and plane tickets. The per person emissions are rising and be 2050 we are supposed to be 10 billion people... it´s too late, I´m sorry for all the kids being born now, because they will suffer from it. The second half of this century will really suck

I totally agree with you.

Too many people on the planet.
Many rising countries who will produce more CO2 due to their consum.
Evolution will work its way and sort us all out.

So lets enjoy the last good years we might have and burn as much gasoline as we can.
 

Fratzog

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The biggest issue is limited range with few charging options.
I'd agree it is certainly a major issue from a consumer acceptance perspective. But when you look at it strictly from a public policy/carbon emissions pov the situation isn't clear cut either. To look at this objectively it is necessary to consider "well-to-wheel emissions". EV's emit an average of about 4500 pounds of CO2 equivalent each year. By comparison, conventional gasoline cars will emit over twice as much annually. The relative amount of well-to-wheel emissions your EV emits is dependent on your energy sources most commonly used for electricity. For example, the situation is much worse if your electricity comes from coal or natural gas but is much better if electricity comes from nuclear power plants. The solution is front of our noses.
 

BigblueC

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From Hagerty;

Ford’s $3900 Eluminator e-crate motor is already sold out

Intake: Well, that was fast. After making its debut under the hood of a sweet 1976 F-100 last week at SEMA, Ford’s Eluminator e-crate motor is already sold out, according to the automaker. “Demand has exceeded expectations,” says Emma Bergg, of Ford’s Electric Vehicle Communications team. If you missed the first wave of $3900, 281-hp motors, stay tuned—Bergg also said that although the units are now out of stock, interested customers should sign up to be notified when orders open once again.

Exhaust: For some, the idea of an electric crate motor is about as exhilarating as the dash to the grocery store for more milk. But to a large portion of the car community, the prospect of e-crate motors simply means that their favorite silhouettes and classics have the chance for a longer life. While we don’t know how many Eluminators were in stock when the project was announced, selling out in less than a week is a noteworthy achievement that shows the industry’s appetite for well-executed, accessible e-crate motors.

@ $3,900 I assume that is motor only. Is that correct? If so what does everything else cost in a turn-key kind of package?
 
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