Hypothetical Question

BamaFan

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I have a Chrysler 300 with the standard 350 hp 440 and one of my favorite engines is the 440 six-pack. I'm sure there are more differences between the base 440 and the six-pack than just two extra barrels, but what would happen if I decided to "bolt on" a six pack. I'd be more than doubling the amount of fuel (currently is a 600 or 650 cfm Edelbrock and I believe the six pack ran two 500s and a 350 in the middle). Making no other mods, how would it run, or would it? What else would be needed to squeeze out those extra 40 horses?

Asking for a friend ;)
 
OK, I'm no expert, but here's my 2 cents: If you make no other changes to the engine, you will be wasting your time and money and will probably be unhappy with the results. Even going from a 650 to a 750 cfm carb will cause problems if you don't make other changes. Reason being, you are at least doubling the area of the carb throats, but not doing anything to help the engine suck in twice the amount of air. Therefore, slow air velocity in the carbs, and bad running engine. To squeeze out an extra 40 horses I'm guessing you would probably need a different cam first and foremost, dual exhaust, headers, electronic ignition or dual points, maybe different heads. Furthermore, there are better ways to get the extra 40 horsepower than going to a six pack setup. I always thought that was kind of gimmicky and unnecessarily complicated. Interesting questions. I would love to hear more opinions on this!
 
An interesting question and I'm sure there is plenty of technical expertise here to help you out. I could be wrong but the 6 pack motors likely had a different cam, dual exhaust and maybe bit more compression. You didn't mention the year of your 300 but it likely already has a forged crank.

I have heard there is a fair bit of expertise required to get a 6 pack dialed in correctly and keep it that way. IMHO a standard 440 well maintained and running as it should is a technically reliable piece of art. Leave well enough alone.
 
On a six pack, until you put your foot into it you are mainly cruising around on the center carb but when you do put your foot into it everything below those carbs and all the way to the bumper better be able manage all that efficiently or you are wasting money.
 
It’s not just the engine. The transmission is different too. 440 SixPack cars equipped with automatics got the same transmission that the Hemis got. Still a 727, but the internals are beefier. Bigger clutch and disc carrier with a wider band, and a stronger planetary gear with 4 cogs instead of three. Different springs on the servos too.
 
It would work and you would see a power increase. You should have a dual exhaust system already. The high performance exhaust manifolds would add a few horsepower but it will work without them. The biggest change would be to put a better cam in it to help the six barrel system work better. If you have the 906 heads then you have the same ones the six barrel came with (the six barrel heads had stiffer valve springs ). You could upgrade the valve springs without removing the heads. I used a six barrel manifold on a high block 383, a 426 wedge and a 440 and it worked on all 3 with the right cam and tuning.
 
I have a Chrysler 300 with the standard 350 hp 440 and one of my favorite engines is the 440 six-pack. I'm sure there are more differences between the base 440 and the six-pack than just two extra barrels, but what would happen if I decided to "bolt on" a six pack. I'd be more than doubling the amount of fuel (currently is a 600 or 650 cfm Edelbrock and I believe the six pack ran two 500s and a 350 in the middle). Making no other mods, how would it run, or would it? What else would be needed to squeeze out those extra 40 horses?

Asking for a friend ;)

In addition to what others have said (six pak spec cam and properly sized dual exhaust), you may also need to change the fuel lines, if they are 5/16" lines. I believe six pak and hemi cars used 3/8" fuel lines. I'm not sure about the fuel pump or if you need to find better heads. . .
 
If he is only using the car on the street he can get away with using the 5/16" fuel lines. Doing any kind of racing like drag racing he would need to upgrade the lines and pick up to 3/8".
 
The outer carbs are vacuum activated. The springs in the vacuum canisters can be changed to work with different combinations so you do not get any bogging. The 6 barrel system is a nice one and can be made to work great with a little tuning.
 
In the 1950s, when 4bbl carbs did good to flow 350cfm, it was common to see multi-carb set-ups as the high performance option. 8 1bbls, 2 4bbls, 3 2bbls were common on "hot rods" back then.

So, if the 426 HEMI was a 2x4bbl engine, the 440 got 3x2bbls instead. One way to get lots of air flow and a WOW affect when the hood was openned.

440/350 was the 256/260 cam with single exhaust. 440/375 was the 268/284 cam with dual exhaust, 1.74" exhaust valves, and HP exhaust manifolds. 440/390 was the same 440/375 engine with the 3x2bbl carb set-up, plus some other internal items for durability and such.

By the time the 440 6bbl engine happened, it was the beginning of larger 4bbls with 850cfm+ air flow. ONE 4bbl carb on a good 4bbl intake would make (probably) more top-end power than the multi-carb set-up AND without out the issues of blown power valves when the engine might slightly back-fire when starting. Easier to work on ONE carb than to remove the center carb on a 3x2bbl set-up.

Ford also had a 390 3x2bbl set-up for the 1962-63 Thunderbirds. A lot-production option NOT about ultimate drag strip performance. Just a bit more horsepower. No fancy exhaust manifolds, as I recall and just the normal dual exhaust under them (usually 2.0" pipe diameter). No cam upgrades, either.

Pontiac popularized their "Tri-Power" 3x2bbl engines in the 1955-'66 model years, too. But when the Quadrajet spreadbore 4bbl was introduced, they disappeared. Tri-Power V-8s could be in almost any Pontiac, even station wagons. Total airflow of those carbs was probably about 700cfm, I suspect, all things considered.

Back then, Chrysler built what I term "package cars". NOT just cars into which larger or more powerful engines went into. It was designed such that everything worked together with good results. When the car got a B/RB engine, it had different items to better handle the added weight and power of the engines. Same with the 426HEMI, including some added body bracing and such, as Chrysle knew the cars would be used for drag racing and such. Brakes were upgraded. Trans guts were upgraded (as mentioned). Rear axles might see some upgrades, too, other than just the gear ratio. Everything worked well together, which tended to make these cars "legendary performers". AND one reason that Dodges and Plymouths were the preferred law enforcement vehicles, too!

Now, there were many people who drove 440 6bbl engines as their daily cars, back then and in later years. But they also usually knew how to replace the primary carb's power valve, themselves, too. Just "part of the neighborhood" . . .

So, please advise your friend that a 3x2bbl intake set-up is: 1) Expensive to get the carbs and all of the needed linkages on the engine, plus the intake manifold and air cleaner 2) He'll (presumnig that is the correct term) need somebody to probably get it running correctly to factory specs 3) Learn how to maintain it himself as few people really know how to do them anymore, I suspect 4) Not expect a big increase in power with a bit of a loss in ultimate fuel economy on the highway 5) Really needs a good OEM+ level exhaust system under the car, plus the HP exhaust manifolds! 6) Buying "used" is not really a good option as the carb would certainly need to be kitted and inspected for "upgrades" of the prior owner 7) Not very financially viable in a $5.00+ gallon of gasoline world, UNLESS such is needed for a correct restoration vehicle which came with a 440 6bbl originally.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 
It will work on a stock 350 horse 440. It will have more power. The 5/16” fuel line is fine.

Yes it will work better with a cam and dual pipes.

They are expensive and a steep learning curve on getting it to work. If you are not able to learn new things and go with new thinking don’t ever get one! I try to help people and some cannot grasp new ideas and they stick with their old ides that fail.

I've been playing with them since the late 80’s. I run a 6bbl bracket car in the high 12’s with 5/16” fuel lines. I’ve run it well past the finish to see if it would run out of fuel, never has. It runs consistent. It’s not close to running out of fuel.

Think of this. You are feeding the same 440 cubes.
With a 4bbl you get 2 float bowls Full at the starting line.
With a 6bbl you have 3 float bowls Full at the starting line.
So it will take longer to get run them low enough to starve for fuel.
 
Thanks for the input. As i mentioned, it's a hypothetical. When I was sixteen, I "built" hot rods out of a J.C. Whitney catalog, thinking I could just "bolt on" a dual quad or six-pack and headers for instant WOW! But I've since learned that when you cnage one thing, you have to chnage other things too, the engine has many parts, but if they're not compatible, you have literally a hunk of junk under the hood. As i said in the title, it's a hypothetical. I love my 300 the way it is, to be honest, especially in that she only like 93 brand-name gasoline and will drink a gallon of it every ten miles.
 
In about the 1963 time frame, JCW catalogs started to appear in our mail box at home. I was "in heaven" as I'd never seen anything like it. All of the "Add ___ horsepower" items. Easy to take a 150 horsepower engine and make it into a 400 horsepower engine with just a few items, it seemed. I spent many hours reading that fine print! Very cheap entertainment, back then. It did help with my automotive education, too.

CBODY67
 
These set ups got a pretty bad rep when all the parts dried up. I remember when you had to go to Art Pacheco in New Mexico just for basic service parts. We all dumped them and ran something else. Diehards like my brother ran them on the street with mixed (I almost always beat him) results.

If you buy old junk and rebuild it you’ll hate it. If you buy new it’s bolt on and pretty simple. I knew some cheapsakes (my brother) who would run only on the center carb sometimes to save gas. If you need to save gas don’t buy one.

I ran a new 4bbl on my AAR daily with great results compared to the worn out junk available in the 80’s. Good luck and post pics if you go for it!

0C13939E-E248-4D39-B828-8E402E1D3AF5.jpeg


PS; I took endless amounts of sh*t from know it alls who flogged me over the missing 6bbl. Funny thing was once removed I never missed it.
 
It’s not just the engine. The transmission is different too. 440 SixPack cars equipped with automatics got the same transmission that the Hemis got. Still a 727, but the internals are beefier. Bigger clutch and disc carrier with a wider band, and a stronger planetary gear with 4 cogs instead of three. Different springs on the servos too.

440-6 cars got a different automatic transmission than Hemi.

69 = 6 bbl got the 093 assembly; the same as the 440-4. Hemi's got the 094.
70 = 6 bbls got the 672 assembly; Hemi's got the 671.
71 = 6 bbls got the 850 assembly; Hemi's got the 849.

We can find this info on broadcast sheets as well as Lynch Road fender tags.
 
I agree with the owner and others. Keep the 6-pack hypothetical. Too much money for too little gain.
 
I have a Chrysler 300 with the standard 350 hp 440 and one of my favorite engines is the 440 six-pack. I'm sure there are more differences between the base 440 and the six-pack than just two extra barrels, but what would happen if I decided to "bolt on" a six pack. I'd be more than doubling the amount of fuel (currently is a 600 or 650 cfm Edelbrock and I believe the six pack ran two 500s and a 350 in the middle). Making no other mods, how would it run, or would it? What else would be needed to squeeze out those extra 40 horses?

Asking for a friend ;)
I wasn't gonna reply to this, but no one has stated something really obvious....

2bbl and 4bbl carbs are rated differently... The flow rating of a 2bbl is done at 3.0 in/HG negative pressure and the 4bbl rating is done at 1.5 in/HG. How this works out is you divide the 2bbl rating by 1.414 to get an equivalent rating of the 4bbl.

So that 1350 CFM rating drops down to ~955 CFM.

As far as putting a setup in your car? No, not without some changes.... First, you need to move a lot of air through those carbs to get them to work right. So the engine needs to rev quickly to pull the end carbs open... You have a heavy car with not enough cam and not enough gear to accomplish this well. That's not even talking about exhaust and convertor.

It can be done... A buddy had a early 70's Plymouth B Body wagon that used the 6 barrel setup (by the way, in a Plymouth it's a six barrel) but he also used 3.55 (or was it 3.91?) gears and a mild cam. He actually towed his race car with this... And it was pretty quick itself. The SFGT had a few cars leave the factory with the setup... My SFGT had a 6 barrel setup on it (not original) and it worked OK, but it also had a lot of cam... Too much, but that's another story..

I've had two cars... an A12 Roadrunner that I street drove and an A12 clone that I raced. The carbs worked well... I used a setup for jetting that was suggested by some engineer in the racing program at Chrysler that a buddy had an "in" with for the race car and basically the stock setup in the street car. The street A12 also had its stock 4.10 gears and I had a mild MP cam in it. Both cars ran well... I put about 70K miles on the street car.

Basically, you would bolt it all on and really, it wouldn't buy you anything except a lighter wallet and some cool underhood appearance. Getting it not to fall on its face when you did get the end carbs to open would take a lot of time and fooling around. So, I think it's a bad idea...
 
Asking for a friend ;)
Unless your friend has all the parts available, and in good serviceable condition, you're looking at ~$1500 to buy all of it. Plus a suitable cam. (wouldn't be surprised, with prices being what they are, if it's $2000+ with shipping and all, + $250min for a reputable cam/lifter/gasket kit))

If you're wanting more performance, there are a lot better places to put $1500 (at most) that would give a LOT more benefit.
 
He is not looking for the most bang for the buck. He likes the look of the six barrel setup. I ran one for years and it is not that hard to get it right. If it is not his daily driver the fuel milage isn't a factor.
 
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