I realized today that I don’t like my wagon.

[Fast Eddie B]

I don’t drive it because it starts soooo hard warm that I don’t want to go anywhere and shut it off. 77 T&C. 440. 107k miles. Ignition all tuned and recent. New fuel pump (just in case) Rebuilt TQ -professional from a real good carb shop. Starts first crank cold. Runs like a top. Smooth. No miss.

But starting warm? Fugeddaboutit. When I follow the instructions on the visor - ‘pedal 1/2 way, turn key’ 25/75 chance it starts. Otherwise, crank and hold the pedal down like its flooded and hope the car starts before the battery dies. Reminds me of 77 Chrysler’s back in the 70’s I seem to remember they always started hard warm.

Two questions:
1. Is there a known issue i am just missing that i need change?
2. Would fuel injection help at all?

I have significant restoration into this car and fuel injection would be a grain of sand on the beach if it works.

Would appreciate any thoughts.

 

[Promiscuitto]

did your car have an insulation pad under the intake manifold?

 

[413]

Try ethanol free gasoline. Run the other down very low first. When you park it hot open the hood all the way and see if it is any better when starting. The heat soak can overheat the gas and can boil and flood the engine.

you only need to put your foot down 1/4 of the way and hold it there on a hot start. It is going to squirt fuel dong this So don’t pump a hot engine.

Is the needle and seat dripping gas down the carb?
What kind of fuel pump do you have?

link to NY ethanol free stations.
Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

 

[BigblueC]

Sounds like a vapor lock issue. Like 413 said, try ethanol free gas as that has a higher boiling point, or open the hood to mitigate heat soak when parked.

 

[Davea Lux]

I don’t drive it because it starts soooo hard warm that I don’t want to go anywhere and shut it off. 77 T&C. 440. 107k miles. Ignition all tuned and recent. New fuel pump (just in case) Rebuilt TQ -professional from a real good carb shop. Starts first crank cold. Runs like a top. Smooth. No miss.

But starting warm? Fugeddaboutit. When I follow the instructions on the visor - ‘pedal 1/2 way, turn key’ 25/75 chance it starts. Otherwise, crank and hold the pedal down like its flooded and hope the car starts before the battery dies. Reminds me of 77 Chrysler’s back in the 70’s I seem to remember they always started hard warm.

Two questions:
1. Is there a known issue i am just missing that i need change?
2. Would fuel injection help at all?

I have significant restoration into this car and fuel injection would be a grain of sand on the beach if it works.

Would appreciate any thoughts.

Does it still have the lean burn system installed? The lean burn was famous for hard/no starts, the electronics crapped out when they got hot.

Dave

 

[Fast Eddie B]

did your car have an insulation pad under the intake manifold?

Never looked. Only took off the carb. What should i be looking for?

 

[Davea Lux]

Never looked. Only took off the carb. What should i be looking for?

Lean burn is a box full of electronics on the air cleaner horn. '76-'77 had first generation electronics and were noted for a lack of reliability. Components could not take very much heat. I bought a new '77 sport fury and went thru 3 computers in the year I had it.

Dave

 

[69PHOENIX]

I Ain't no Expert!
And you may have tried this Already.
I'd be looking at what components are being Affected by Heat. (Cold Starts are Easy, Hot Starts are Difficult).
Where do you have the Coil mounted?
Even if you think it's O.K. Move it to somewhere it gets Cool Air while Driving. (Replace if Any Doubt as to Condition).
Forty Years ago I worked with the First of the Electronic Ignitions and Cooling was Absolutely Critical, for both "Black" Box and Ignition Components.
Starter Motor in Top Condition? Have it Checked / Replaced, It may be Drawing All the Battery Power when Hot, Robbing the Ignition.
Have you checked for "Weak" Spark when Hot.
Also: Go around and Clean and Re-tighten All Connections / Earths. Many Years ago a Customer complained that his Car kept having Similar Problems to Yours
After checking We found that he had Replaced the OEM Black Box himself to save money, hadn't cleaned the Rust off mounting Surfaces so kept Experiencing Intermittent Starting Problems.
As I say No Expert.
But check the Cheap Stuff First! Before Laying out Bulk Money Without Knowing THAT is the Answer.
Nothing Pings me off more than Spending Money to No Result.
Hope This Helps. Maybe Someone Else can Also Help. (That's one of the Reasons I joined this Forum)
Kind Regards, Tony.M

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Try ethanol free gasoline. Run the other down very low first. When you park it hot open the hood all the way and see if it is any better when starting. The heat soak can overheat the gas and can boil and flood the engine.

you only need to put your foot down 1/4 of the way and hold it there on a hot start. It is going to squirt fuel dong this So don’t pump a hot engine.


Is the needle and seat dripping gas down the carb?
What kind of fuel pump do you have?

link to NY ethanol free stations.
Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

Only use non-ethanol in all my classics. Even the ones with completely rebuilt fuel systems! I don’t like the thought of the moisture accumulating over time. Not pumping has helped, but i have been going more half way than 1/4 way. That’s moot but may be contributing. I’ll test for it. I know a key only start doesn’t work, but the 25% of the time it does start may just be me not putting the pedal too deep.

Like boil over, I don’t think the needle and seat is leaking. Pretty sure i have checked and the carb is ‘new’ from a co that has not failed me yet on a 100% trouble free build.

I thought I checked for fuel boil and there is none. I will pay deliberate attention this time. I have had that problem with other cars and i think i checked that early and do not think i had that issue here.

Fuel pump is mechanical and whatever I could find on Summit this summer. That was a tip from a resto shop I go to every once and while they suggested to just toss the pump and replace it as they regularly get weak, drain back, and take a while to get gas moving again. Did it because it was cheap, but cold starts are fine so was likely never a candidate. But thinking about it, I have fixed a number of cars with electric pump conversions.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Does it still have the lean burn system installed? The lean burn was famous for hard/no starts, the electronics crapped out when they got hot.

Dave

Lean burn is long gone. Forget how I ordered tune up parts, but it is Period Chrysler conversion

 

[Promiscuitto]

Never looked. Only took off the carb. What should i be looking for?

Couple of old Chryslers I owned in the past had homemade looking insulation material wrapped up in aluminum foil that was stuffed under the intake manifold. Back in the '80's, I was told by a mechanic that the insulation was there to prevent the carb from percolating and that I should leave it there. Not sure whether or not this is relevant to your issue, jut passing it on.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I Ain't no Expert!
And you may have tried this Already.
I'd be looking at what components are being Affected by Heat. (Cold Starts are Easy, Hot Starts are Difficult).
Where do you have the Coil mounted?
Even if you think it's O.K. Move it to somewhere it gets Cool Air while Driving. (Replace if Any Doubt as to Condition).
Forty Years ago I worked with the First of the Electronic Ignitions and Cooling was Absolutely Critical, for both "Black" Box and Ignition Components.
Starter Motor in Top Condition? Have it Checked / Replaced, It may be Drawing All the Battery Power when Hot, Robbing the Ignition.
Have you checked for "Weak" Spark when Hot.
Also: Go around and Clean and Re-tighten All Connections / Earths. Many Years ago a Customer complained that his Car kept having Similar Problems to Yours
After checking We found that he had Replaced the OEM Black Box himself to save money, hadn't cleaned the Rust off mounting Surfaces so kept Experiencing Intermittent Starting Problems.
As I say No Expert.
But check the Cheap Stuff First! Before Laying out Bulk Money Without Knowing THAT is the Answer.
Nothing Pings me off more than Spending Money to No Result.
Hope This Helps. Maybe Someone Else can Also Help. (That's one of the Reasons I joined this Forum)
Kind Regards, Tony.M

Couple new things to try here. Thanks! Coil would not have been there originally and I think is over the front of the engine. Heat could absolutely be problem there. I’ll check hot spark too.

 

[mopar440]

Couple of old Chryslers I owned in the past had homemade looking insulation material wrapped up in aluminum foil that was stuffed under the intake manifold. Back in the '80's, I was told by a mechanic that the insulation was there to prevent the carb from percolating and that I should leave it there. Not sure whether or not this is relevant to your issue, jut passing it on.

It's supposed to, and blocking off the heat crossover in the manifold helps, I drill a 1/4 hole in the block offs

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Couple of old Chryslers I owned in the past had homemade looking insulation material wrapped up in aluminum foil that was stuffed under the intake manifold. Back in the '80's, I was told by a mechanic that the insulation was there to prevent the carb from percolating and that I should leave it there. Not sure whether or not this is relevant to your issue, jut passing it on.

Ah! Old school isolator for the carb. Pretty sure the block and engine are largely stock. I have hesitated putting an isolating gasket on the carb because the TQ body is plastic to prevent heat soak. Getting it rebuilt it was important the plastic still good or it was a no-go.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

It's supposed to, and blocking off the heat crossover in the manifold helps, I drill a 1/4 hole in the block offs

Now that is something i had not considered. If it is related to stuffing the insulation in there, now i get it. Had a couple cars i had to do that on. I also heard the EGR values can cause a similar issue if they are stuck open. I will check both the cross over and see if there is an EGR valve to remove.

 

[detmatt]

Fuel pump pushrod, pull your rod out and measure it.

 

[Promiscuitto]

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Fuel pump pushrod, pull your rod out and measure it.

That’s what she said.

FWIW, it was the same as what i took out. now... that says both were bad and it has been there a while! But what length should it be?

 

[mopar440]

Now that is something i had not considered. If it is related to stuffing the insulation in there, now i get it. Had a couple cars i had to do that on. I also heard the EGR values can cause a similar issue if they are stuck open. I will check both the cross over and see if there is an EGR valve to remove.

On a BB, exhaust crosses under the carb, driven by that valve on the pass side manifold. It heats the manifold to help cold starts. Newer fuels boil too easily, so it needs to be cooler

 

[71Polara383]

I would put on a mini starter and see how that does.

Its gonna spin over faster, and draw less on the battery.

Them giant battery sucking starters dont take much to kill a battery and they sound stupid.