Long ram cars. Inner fender access panels vs no access panels

[Furious]

I thought I would start a separate thread about this.
On the topic of 60-64 full size cars factory equipped with long ram intake manifolds.
I have been researching the inner fender access panels located under the long rams. Most factory equipped long ram cars have inner aprons with removeable panels. And it appears to me, that all these cars with the removable panels, have the body colored inner fenders, rad support and hood hinges. On these cars, the body was completely assembled, with fenders, inner fenders, rad support, hood etc all assembled, painted and then when this painted body came down the assembly line to meet up with it's drive line, it was dropped over the assembled stub frame, which had the suspension, engine, trans etc all assembled as a unit. As the body was lowered, it needed the cut outs in the inner aprons to clear the carbs and long ram tubes, which were hanging out in space. Without the cut outs, the engine bay would be too narrow to clear the carbs and manifolds.
But! Some long rams cars have black inner fenders, rad supports, and unpainted hood hinges.
These cars were assembled in a different manner. The body shell from the firewall back was assembled and painted, and the hoods and front fenders were painted separately. The body came down the assembly line, and when it was lowered to the fully assembled stub frame, it was naked from the firewall forward. This means the carbs and ram tubes did not interfere with anything. Then the black rad support and inner aprons, and hood hinges were placed, and the prepainted hood and fenders were then attached.
So, my conclusion in all this, is that long ram cars with the body coloured engine bays would have the cut outs in the inner fenders, and the cars with black inner aprons, and rad supports would not need, or have the cut outs.
Clearly there were two completely different assembly line procedures used in different factories.
Anyone else have any info to back up my theory?

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

I think you're on the right track - however (and I'm just guessing here), many of those cars got damaged during their use (sometimes heavily), with body panels needing to be replaced over time with what was out there back in the day.

Unlikely that anyone would drop the stub and engine/suspension package to replace an inner and outer fender assembly. Perhaps that's where the inconsistency might play in on the odd case.

As well, AFAIK, NO Chrysler product at that time ever had black inner fenders unless the body colour was black, but replacement panels were delivered in black primer.

Thoughts?

 

[Furious]

I think you're on the right track - however (and I'm just guessing here), many of those cars got damaged during their use (sometimes heavily), with body panels needing to be replaced over time with what was out there back in the day.

Unlikely that anyone would drop the stub and engine/suspension package to replace an inner and outer fender assembly. Perhaps that's where the inconsistency might play in on the odd case.

As well, AFAIK, NO Chrysler product at that time ever had black inner fenders unless the body colour was black, but replacement panels were delivered in black primer.

Thoughts?

Yes, many had the black inner fenders fro the factory, black primer as you mentioned. Chrysler had 2 methods of building the same cars in the early 60's, depending on factory. Some factories used the first method, described above, where the entire body was assembled, then painted, including the inner fenders, rad support , hinges etc, and a second method, where only the body from the firewall back was assembled and painted, and the fenders and hood were painted separately, and the inner fenders, rad support were black primer, and hood hinges were unpainted. I own cars of both varieties. I own two 60 Plymouths, one of each variety, both never been apart and unrestored. That said, I have not seen any 62-64's with black inners personally that I can recall, so perhaps this was only a 1960-61 procedure.
The topic is about whether factory Long Ram equipped cars with the second method of assembly, [black inner aprons, rad support], would have the access panels/cut out inner fenders. My thoughts are that they would not, due to assembly line procedure

 

[SGT FURY]

I have a pair of 63 cutout long ram inner fenders that are black,that came out of a white car.
Also I have a question about the brake resivor under battery tray.
Do all long ram cars have the resivor tank? Or is it a 63/64 thing,becuase of the different booster?

 

[Furious]

I have a pair of 63 cutout long ram inner fenders that are black,that came out of a white car.
Also I have a question about the brake resivor under battery tray.
Do all long ram cars have the resivor tank? Or is it a 63/64 thing,becuase of the different booster?

Are your inner fenders original black primer?

 

[saforwardlook]

I always thought those inner cutouts were to enable better access for spark plug changes, etc.

Not sure this helps much, but here is a photo of the inner fenders on my 1960 Chrysler 300F that have never been out or altered or painted.

 

[Furious]

I always thought those inner cutouts were to enable better access for spark plug changes, etc.

Not sure this helps much, but here is a photo of the inner fenders on my 1960 Chrysler 300F that have never been out or altered or painted.

View attachment 442188

Thanks for that. My 60 Plymouth Sonoramic Commando has the body color inner fenders, and also has the cutouts.

 

[SGT FURY]

Here is a cut out pic of a 999 special order paint 61 G. It's hard to tell in pic but,is original exterior body color.
Also I dug out the 63 inner fenders that came from a white car and I was mistaken. They do appear to be originally white. The cutouts themselves appear to be black originally

 

[Furious]

View attachment 442220 View attachment 442221 View attachment 442222 Here is a cut out pic of a 999 special order paint 61 G. It's hard to tell in pic but,is original exterior body color.
Also I dug out the 63 inner fenders that came from a white car and I was mistaken. They do appear to be originally white. The cutouts themselves appear to be black originally

Thanks for the photos and effort!

 

[Ram Fury]

Lads --
I think it's time to retire this business of the purpose of the bolt-in lower fender well panels. Darrell Davis, a retired executive of the Chrysler Corporation and a board member of the Chrysler Historical Society, not only had two '60 Sonoramic Commando Furys but also has written the definitive books on all 1960-1961 ram-inducted Darts, Dodges, and Plymouths. Since he has access to the Corporation records, he researched them all to list every VIN that came off any production line with such an engine. Thus establishing his credentials, let me quote from his The 1960 Plymouth SonoRamic Commando Guide:
"I could find no document in the files that places a date on the changeover from solid panels to two piece inner fender panels or even a document that details the existence of these panels. They were used to facilitate spark plug changes. Anyone who has changed spark plugs on a hot Sonoramic engine will understand why they were placed there."
From my experiences back in 1960-1964, I can readily attest to the last sentence, especially if in a pit area using a bumper jack.
Again, my current Big-Tailed Beast does not have the panels but the one I abused on street and strip in 1960 until I traded it for a 426-S/4-speed '65 Sport Fury in 1964 did have them.
I rest my case.
Joe Godec

 

[Furious]

Lads --
I think it's time to retire this business of the purpose of the bolt-in lower fender well panels. Darrell Davis, a retired executive of the Chrysler Corporation and a board member of the Chrysler Historical, not only had two '60 Sonoramic Commando Furys but also has written the definitive books on all 1960-1961 ram-inducted Darts, Dodges, and Plymouths. Since he has access to the Corporation records, he researched them all to list every VIN that came off any production line with such an engine. Thus establishing his credentials, let me quote from his The 1960 Plymouth SonoRamic Commando Guide:
"I could find no document in the files that places a date on the changeover from solid panels to two piece inner fender panels or even a document that details the existence of these panels. They were used to facilitate spark plug changes. Anyone who has changed spark plugs on a hot Sonoramic engine will understand why they were placed there."
From my experiences back in 1960-1964, I can readily attest to the last sentence, especially if in a pit area using a bumper jack.
Again, my current Big-Tailed Beast does not have the panels but the one I abused on street and strip in 1960 until I traded it for a 426-S/4-speed '65 Sport Fury in 1964 did have them.
I rest my case.
Joe Godec

So you think we need to stop discussing these cars because you tell us to?
Dismissing research of others because you feel like you are in charge?
Meanwhile, those of us who like to compare and research cars will continue to do so.
So tell us, is your current car an actual factory equipped long ram car, and does it have black inner fenders and rad support?

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Respectfully, I don't think he's telling us not to discuss these special cars, he's just attempting to relay what he feels is the definitive word about the fenderwell access panels.

I for one appreciate the info, and reference to the book. That being said, I also enjoy discussing these cars - there's always interesting stories and such to hear!

 

[Ram Fury]

Furious --
With all due respect, I have just provided information from a very authoritative source that for Chrysler, Dart, Dodge, and Plymouth the removable fender panels on ram-inducted cars were not there in order to clear engine parts during assembly (being installed only after the engine was mounted) as you may have thought, but rather to facilitate plug changes later in the vehicle's life long after the vehicles had left the assembly plant. Remember, in those days not every bay in a dealer's shop had a hydraulic lift, so tune-up work on on a ram car involved removing those panels, jacking up the front end, removing the front wheels, and getting to the plugs from the side. I did see this done in shop areas, but I never had it done on my car then as I was quoted a labor charge of $5.00 a plug to have a mechanic do it. Guys like the Ramchargers could do it very rapidly even in a pit area, but it usually took me quite a while -- perhaps even an hour or more as I used only the stock bumper jack. I really have no idea from which plant that car came from, but it was an all white Fury 2-dr H/T, which included its engine bay.
My current '60 Fury was shipped from the St. Louis plant on October 25, 1959, to Bill Goodro Chrysler-Plymouth in Denver, but wasn't sold until February 23, 1960. As you can tell from the photo, it has the all-black engine bay. It is a very early car as it has the has the ball-joint carb linkage rather than the slotted type that came later. It is an unrestored car that had only 43000 miles on its clock when I picked it up in 2000 from the heir of the original owner (who was a rancher in a high mountain valley here in Colorado who used it as his "Sunday-go-to-meetin'-car).
Ross --
You might find this of interest:
The "big" engine for Plymouth in 1960 was supposed to be the ram 361. But Dodge, who made the "B" mills, started dropping ram 383s in its Dart, at which the Plymouth dealers started to cry "foul" so a bit later in the year, Plymouth got its 383. In all, 885 '60 Plymmers had 361s and 690 had 383s, with TorqueFlites in all but the 238 that had the Borg-Warner T-85.
Joe

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Very cool!!

 

[SGT FURY]

I have several 61s.(non Xram) Some of them have black inner fenders and radiator support.
Some of them have body colored inner fender and radiator support.
I think it has to do with different assembly plants?

 

[Furious]

Ram Fury, Thanks for the info. No disrepect intended.
While I do not disagree that the access covers help spark plug servicing and such, I do feel that the assembly line procedure had a factor. The engines were assembled when the body drop was done, and therefore on cars built with the body color inner aprons, it is impossible to drop the body down over the ram tubes without the access holes. Without trying to be repetitive, my question regarding these panels, is about cars with the black inner fenders. Do any cars with black inner fenders have the access panels?
Because I do not see why they would.
If your car has the black inner fenders, and no access panels, that supports my theory.

 

[SGT FURY]

Not to change subject,but what's the going rate for a set of inner fenders?WIW
I don't see them come up very often.

 

[Ram Fury]

Furious --
I haven't talked with Darrell Davis for a few months, but I'll see if I can get some more info from him. We discussed the function of those removable panels at length some time ago (actually, when he was researching that '60 Plymouth SonoRamic guide way back before it was published in 2008), the issue was whether or not car had to have them to be a true ram-inducted car that came off the assembly line as such and not a clone or tribute car. Anyway, I'll see what I can find out.
Now, if you want some controversy, here's a good one. As I said in an earlier post, the "big" engine for Plymouth in 1960 was supposed to be the 361 SonoRamic Commando, but because Dodge dropped 383's into their new Dart, Plymouth got a few of the bigger engines as well. Now here's a couple of kickers: the Plymouth ram 361 was advertised at 310 HP but the Dart was said to be 320 and it was the same engine as Dodge made it. Furthermore, both Dodge and Plymouth ram 383s are said to have 330 ponies, but that same 383 as the '59 DeSoto hipo (2X4V carbs) was advertised at 350 and the same mill in '59 Dodge D-500 livery was 345. In 1960, the ram Golden Lion 413 in the 300F had 375 horses, right? Well, if the 361 is 87% the size of the 413 and the 383 is 93%, and since all three engines have basically the same carbs, cams, exhausts, etc., then then the ram 361 should develop 87% of the 413's horses (or about 325) and the 383 should get 93% (or 350-360). In a stop-light Grand Prix or at a 1/4 mile strip, those 330 MoPar ponies did very well against Pontiac 389 CID/348 HP.
Just some thoughts.
Joe

 

[SGT FURY]

Joe,If you speak with Darrell again? Could you ask him if he has any plans to print anymore copies of his books? I was lucky enough to find a copy of 61 ply book. Would like to get 60/61 dodge books and 60 ply book.

 

[SGT FURY]

A 61 production photo. If standard inner fenders don't clear carbs then I would say there s a good chance that cutouts were for that?