One of those weeks... 1965 Chrysler

D Cluley

Active Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
277
Reaction score
324
Location
Lansing MI
The project for this summer is/was supposed to be replacing the top on my convertible. It was last done almost 20 years ago, and it has been pretty ratty for a couple of years. It isn’t 100% weather tight, but I normally park in the carport at Jen’s so it hasn’t been a problem. Ordered a new top last year, and it is sitting in the basement just waiting for the weather to get nicer.

As is typical, the car sat from November until late April, when we had one very nice Saturday evening. I hooked up the battery, put some fresh gas in and after a jump start went for a ride and everything seemed pretty good.

Which brings us to this past week. Decided to use the car on Wed and it needed another jump, and then had to put it on the charger at home to get it started in the evening, so gonna need to get the battery checked and I noticed that something in the front brakes is making an occasional noise, so that’s going to need looking at.

Put the car back into the carport, and then saw the notice in the building that the maintenance crew is going to clean the carports with leaf blowers on Thursday, so I jump started it again and moved it across the lot.

On Friday, determined that yes the battery is toast and bought a new one. Can’t actually complain about that, the old one was left over from a previous daily driver, so was at least 5 years old and probably not quite big enough to begin with. At this point the turn signals decide its their turn for attention. Front, rear & the fender top indicators all work fine, but all of a sudden both lights in the instrument cluster light up together for either right or left. I’m guessing a bad ground in the cluster somehow, but everything else seems ok, so I’m not sure, and I haven’t even looked at it because when I went to park back in the carport I couldn’t get reverse to work!

This moment has probably been coming for years. There has always been something off with reverse. When the car is cold you can shift to reverse and after a delay of somewhere between 10 seconds and eternity it finally kicks in and moves. Once driven for 10 minutes or so it warms up and the delay is only a second or so. It has been like this for at least a decade, and never got worse, so I’ve never dug into it. My assumption has been that the seal on the reverse servo leaked a little when cold, but that is based on the internet and not any actual knowledge of the dark magic that is the inside of an automatic transmission.

So, I parked it out on the lot again where there is enough slope to roll back out, and some day next week will see if I can get it home, drop the trans pan and see what delightful surprises I find. At this rate, I’m going to be lucky to have the top done by Fall.
 

MONC440

Active Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2021
Messages
354
Reaction score
644
Location
Michigan
The project for this summer is/was supposed to be replacing the top on my convertible. It was last done almost 20 years ago, and it has been pretty ratty for a couple of years. It isn’t 100% weather tight, but I normally park in the carport at Jen’s so it hasn’t been a problem. Ordered a new top last year, and it is sitting in the basement just waiting for the weather to get nicer.

As is typical, the car sat from November until late April, when we had one very nice Saturday evening. I hooked up the battery, put some fresh gas in and after a jump start went for a ride and everything seemed pretty good.

Which brings us to this past week. Decided to use the car on Wed and it needed another jump, and then had to put it on the charger at home to get it started in the evening, so gonna need to get the battery checked and I noticed that something in the front brakes is making an occasional noise, so that’s going to need looking at.

Put the car back into the carport, and then saw the notice in the building that the maintenance crew is going to clean the carports with leaf blowers on Thursday, so I jump started it again and moved it across the lot.

On Friday, determined that yes the battery is toast and bought a new one. Can’t actually complain about that, the old one was left over from a previous daily driver, so was at least 5 years old and probably not quite big enough to begin with. At this point the turn signals decide its their turn for attention. Front, rear & the fender top indicators all work fine, but all of a sudden both lights in the instrument cluster light up together for either right or left. I’m guessing a bad ground in the cluster somehow, but everything else seems ok, so I’m not sure, and I haven’t even looked at it because when I went to park back in the carport I couldn’t get reverse to work!

This moment has probably been coming for years. There has always been something off with reverse. When the car is cold you can shift to reverse and after a delay of somewhere between 10 seconds and eternity it finally kicks in and moves. Once driven for 10 minutes or so it warms up and the delay is only a second or so. It has been like this for at least a decade, and never got worse, so I’ve never dug into it. My assumption has been that the seal on the reverse servo leaked a little when cold, but that is based on the internet and not any actual knowledge of the dark magic that is the inside of an automatic transmission.

So, I parked it out on the lot again where there is enough slope to roll back out, and some day next week will see if I can get it home, drop the trans pan and see what delightful surprises I find. At this rate, I’m going to be lucky to have the top done by Fall.
Hi Dan,
We have all had these kinds of weeks. I live in Michigan also down just west of MIS and I know how disappointing it is when the weather finally brakes and then you find issues with your ride. I would say you are on track with the ground but before diving into the cluster I would check that all your lights have good ground. I had one once that the tail light ground was bad and all the lights blinked when the turn signal was on and they all came on dimly when I hit the brake.

I can help you with the "dark magic" inside the auto trans if you need it. The one thing my dad couldn't teach me about cars growing up was auto trans so when I went to LCC for auto tech I make sure to pay attention in that class. I have rebuilt many 727's and 904's over the years for our project cars. I can do brand X also but don't like em. I don't do this for a living but if you need help let me know.
John
 

CBODY67

Old Man with a Hat
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
7,942
Reaction score
5,037
Bad/deteriorated grounds can cause many unusual electrical things to happen, by observation.

Wasn't there something about '65 TFs having issues with a "reverse blocker valve" that could cause "R" to not engage?

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 

Big_John

Illegitimi non carborundum
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
16,331
Reaction score
22,283
Location
Marcellus, NY
I would say you are on track with the ground but before diving into the cluster I would check that all your lights have good ground.
^This^


When the car is cold you can shift to reverse and after a delay of somewhere between 10 seconds and eternity it finally kicks in and moves.
With the words "kicks in", I would not be surprised if the reverse band is now broken.
 

1970FuryConv

Old Man with a Hat
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
5,189
Reaction score
4,668
Location
Richmond, VA
The project for this summer is/was supposed to be replacing the top on my convertible. It was last done almost 20 years ago, and it has been pretty ratty for a couple of years. It isn’t 100% weather tight, but I normally park in the carport at Jen’s so it hasn’t been a problem. Ordered a new top last year, and it is sitting in the basement just waiting for the weather to get nicer.

As is typical, the car sat from November until late April, when we had one very nice Saturday evening. I hooked up the battery, put some fresh gas in and after a jump start went for a ride and everything seemed pretty good.

Which brings us to this past week. Decided to use the car on Wed and it needed another jump, and then had to put it on the charger at home to get it started in the evening, so gonna need to get the battery checked and I noticed that something in the front brakes is making an occasional noise, so that’s going to need looking at.

Put the car back into the carport, and then saw the notice in the building that the maintenance crew is going to clean the carports with leaf blowers on Thursday, so I jump started it again and moved it across the lot.

On Friday, determined that yes the battery is toast and bought a new one. Can’t actually complain about that, the old one was left over from a previous daily driver, so was at least 5 years old and probably not quite big enough to begin with. At this point the turn signals decide its their turn for attention. Front, rear & the fender top indicators all work fine, but all of a sudden both lights in the instrument cluster light up together for either right or left. I’m guessing a bad ground in the cluster somehow, but everything else seems ok, so I’m not sure, and I haven’t even looked at it because when I went to park back in the carport I couldn’t get reverse to work!

This moment has probably been coming for years. There has always been something off with reverse. When the car is cold you can shift to reverse and after a delay of somewhere between 10 seconds and eternity it finally kicks in and moves. Once driven for 10 minutes or so it warms up and the delay is only a second or so. It has been like this for at least a decade, and never got worse, so I’ve never dug into it. My assumption has been that the seal on the reverse servo leaked a little when cold, but that is based on the internet and not any actual knowledge of the dark magic that is the inside of an automatic transmission.

So, I parked it out on the lot again where there is enough slope to roll back out, and some day next week will see if I can get it home, drop the trans pan and see what delightful surprises I find. At this rate, I’m going to be lucky to have the top done by Fall.
My car needs a convertible top too. Have you priced out the job? What cost are you looking at? And what kind of wait time?

What is the voltage reading at your battery once the car is running?

I once had the same problem both dash signal lights lighting up when I used a turn signal. It was bad grounds at the taillights. I’ll bet that your front turn signals are okay. I grounded the taillights/signal lights and side marker lights to the 2 ground posts, one in either trunk side of the trunk floor. That cured the issue for me.

Good luck on you. Sometimes, when it rains it pours. Ben
 

D Cluley

Active Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
277
Reaction score
324
Location
Lansing MI
Thank you all for the support & suggestions. :)

@MONC440 Thank you for the offer of help, will definitely let you know what I find once I get into it. I was at LCC 1987-89, I'm guessing you were a few years later?

@Big_John Kick is perhaps the wrong word, engages maybe? I'm certainly not ruling a broken band out, but haven't noticed anything terribly harsh about going into reverse, just the varying amount of delay.

@1970FuryConv Once I got the new battery in, voltage seemed normal. Idling in park, or driving I was seeing 14 volts +/- a couple of tenths. Stopped in gear with the headlights on it drops to 11.8-12.
As far as the top goes, I am going to try doing it myself. I had it done when I got the car in 2002 and that was right around $800 then. The 2 shops I talked to back then have both closed, so I'm not sure where to go now, but I assume it would be closer to $1000 these days. I redid the seats a couple of years ago, and that came out well enough to consider that maybe I could do a top. I got everything last year from Convertible Top Guys and including tools & their book it was a little under $500, so I figure even if I completely screw up, a 2nd attempt would still be cheaper.

 

MONC440

Active Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2021
Messages
354
Reaction score
644
Location
Michigan
Thank you all for the support & suggestions. :)

@MONC440 Thank you for the offer of help, will definitely let you know what I find once I get into it. I was at LCC 1987-89, I'm guessing you were a few years later?

@Big_John Kick is perhaps the wrong word, engages maybe? I'm certainly not ruling a broken band out, but haven't noticed anything terribly harsh about going into reverse, just the varying amount of delay.

@1970FuryConv Once I got the new battery in, voltage seemed normal. Idling in park, or driving I was seeing 14 volts +/- a couple of tenths. Stopped in gear with the headlights on it drops to 11.8-12.
As far as the top goes, I am going to try doing it myself. I had it done when I got the car in 2002 and that was right around $800 then. The 2 shops I talked to back then have both closed, so I'm not sure where to go now, but I assume it would be closer to $1000 these days. I redid the seats a couple of years ago, and that came out well enough to consider that maybe I could do a top. I got everything last year from Convertible Top Guys and including tools & their book it was a little under $500, so I figure even if I completely screw up, a 2nd attempt would still be cheaper.


Yes I went to LCC from 91 to 94.

No need to drop the pan to see if your rear band is broken, just see if you have engine braking in manual 1st. If you have engine braking in manual 1st, your band is not broken. If you don't then only he rear sprag is holding and the band is broke or worn out or something. The rear sprag will only hold under acceleration and free wheels under deceleration.
 

MONC440

Active Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2021
Messages
354
Reaction score
644
Location
Michigan
I have done three convertible tops one 65 Dart, a 69 Fury, and a 90 Mustang. The key is to get everything lined up in the back the open the top frame a few inches before attaching the front. That way when you close the top all the way it pulls it tight.
 

CBODY67

Old Man with a Hat
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
7,942
Reaction score
5,037
Reverse engagement time varies? On the older TFs, when starting from cold, then immediately shifting into "R", there will be some lag before the car moves, generally. Something about torque converter partially draining-back into the oil pan? When hot after driving, that same lag will be mostly "not there". So, when cold, start in "N" (which fills the torque converter faster) and then shift into whatever drive gear.

Also, when shifting into "R", it will be "firmer" than when putting the gear lever into "D", where it just seems to apply more softly. In "D", the apply pressure goes through the accumulator to soften the shift application.

Study the fluid schematics and circuits in the FSM for more information.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 

D Cluley

Active Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
277
Reaction score
324
Location
Lansing MI
Projects get done at my Mom's house where there is more room to work. This is about a 20 min drive, and this morning looked like a good time to move the cars around.

When I set off, reverse was still not engaging, but forward motion felt fine. Got across Lansing and the short freeway part went smoothly. Once in Mason, I had to stop at an intersection. Starting up from that, it moved fine, the 1-2 shift felt normal, but it didn't seem to be going into 3rd. No tach, but my ears said it was reving higher than normal, so I pulled over. Checked the fluid, and the level seemed good. (this transmission has a small but steady leak, so I do check and top off the fluid pretty regularly) At this point, I had no forward gears at all (tried D, 2 & 1) so gave up and called for a tow.

Wanted to double check the fluid level this evening, and realized that forward was working again, so I pulled out of the drive and went around the block, so I could park it facing the garage rather than the street. 1-2 shift seemed normal, still probably not getting to 3rd. There is also a new whining noise (sounds like a PS pump that is way low on fluid, yes I checked that) I do not believe that manual 1 is giving me engine braking, but I was going slow enough that I won't swear on it.

So, pan is definitely coming off, but between other projects and an iffy weather forecast, I'm not sure which day. Will report further eventually.
 

MONC440

Active Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2021
Messages
354
Reaction score
644
Location
Michigan
Dan,

Now it sounds like you are into a pressure supply issue. The filter could be plugged or pump going bad, causing the issue. The rear clutch is applied in all forward gears but not reverse, you need the front clutch and rear band applied for that. So with having multiple issues and they get worse when things heat up I think it is a pressure issue. The problem is by the time you start to feel this your trans clutches have usually been hurt.

Two questions; 1. is your kick down linkage hooked up and working, 2. does the trans fluid smell burnt?

Your mom lives in Mason, did you grow up there? I when to HS in Leslie and drove to Mason almost every day my Jr/Sr year for the career center auto tech program.
 

1970FuryConv

Old Man with a Hat
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
5,189
Reaction score
4,668
Location
Richmond, VA
Projects get done at my Mom's house where there is more room to work. This is about a 20 min drive, and this morning looked like a good time to move the cars around.

When I set off, reverse was still not engaging, but forward motion felt fine. Got across Lansing and the short freeway part went smoothly. Once in Mason, I had to stop at an intersection. Starting up from that, it moved fine, the 1-2 shift felt normal, but it didn't seem to be going into 3rd. No tach, but my ears said it was reving higher than normal, so I pulled over. Checked the fluid, and the level seemed good. (this transmission has a small but steady leak, so I do check and top off the fluid pretty regularly) At this point, I had no forward gears at all (tried D, 2 & 1) so gave up and called for a tow.
I went to Michigan State, Go Spartans

"Once I got the new battery in, voltage seemed normal. Idling in park, or driving I was seeing 14 volts +/- a couple of tenths. Stopped in gear with the headlights on it drops to 11.8-12."
11.8-12 is too low. should be at least 13.5V. Can you measure output volts at alternator. Probably low priority, but if low at alternator also, you may want advance or autozone to check your alternator.
 

D Cluley

Active Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
277
Reaction score
324
Location
Lansing MI
@1970FuryConv
Small world, I went to MSU '90-'92. Definitely not going to worry about the electrical till everything else is sorted, but over the years I've had a couple of alternators and regulators, and it seems like at minimum rpms (like stopped at a red light) the lights have always dimmed a bit like it's doing now.

@MONC440
I did grow up in Mason, used to ride my bike around all those connected parking lots at the Career Center in the Summer.

Kickdown is connected. Haven't adjusted it in years (whenever the last time the carb was off) but doesn't look like anything is odd. I do recall it coming apart where the verical rod by the firewall connects to the bellcrank on top, but that was a couple of years ago, and was only briefly.

Fluid has a whiff of something maybe, but doesn't smell super bad. I have smelled completely burnt fluid and it was much worse. It is nice and red, however, due to the leakage over the Winter, probably 1/3 of what's in there is fresh this Spring with less than 100 miles on it.

Took one more drive around the neighborhood last night. Starting off, felt normal, but after 1-2 miles 3rd went away again, and then lost everything. Shut off the engine and let everything sit for 10 minutes and it would move again, didn't feel 100% but got me the last 2 blocks home.

Is there anything else I should check before pulling the pan? I see that you can test line pressure at various spots externally, would there be a point to that?
 

Big_John

Illegitimi non carborundum
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
16,331
Reaction score
22,283
Location
Marcellus, NY
Checked fluid idling in neutral?

I always hate to post that, but there's been a couple times when that's the issue.
 

MONC440

Active Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2021
Messages
354
Reaction score
644
Location
Michigan
@MONC440
I did grow up in Mason, used to ride my bike around all those connected parking lots at the Career Center in the Summer.

Kickdown is connected. Haven't adjusted it in years (whenever the last time the carb was off) but doesn't look like anything is odd. I do recall it coming apart where the verical rod by the firewall connects to the bellcrank on top, but that was a couple of years ago, and was only briefly.

Fluid has a whiff of something maybe, but doesn't smell super bad. I have smelled completely burnt fluid and it was much worse. It is nice and red, however, due to the leakage over the Winter, probably 1/3 of what's in there is fresh this Spring with less than 100 miles on it.

Took one more drive around the neighborhood last night. Starting off, felt normal, but after 1-2 miles 3rd went away again, and then lost everything. Shut off the engine and let everything sit for 10 minutes and it would move again, didn't feel 100% but got me the last 2 blocks home.

Is there anything else I should check before pulling the pan? I see that you can test line pressure at various spots externally, would there be a point to that?
By the time I was a Jr in HS I was already building cars in my dads restoration shop. I went to CACC for auto tech because I wanted to learn how to rebuild auto trans and figured it would be an easy A. The first day in class the instructors told me auto trans was the only thing they didn't teach. LOL. By the end of my Jr year I had completed all the program so my Sr year I just used the shop to work on my 70 340 Dart so I wasn't taking up space in dads shop. That winter we did the heads, solid lifter cam, new hooker comp headers and rebuilt the 8 3/4 with 4:11 gears. Mr. Morelock, the head instructor, used to let me do hole shots behind the building for "testing". He also made sure I got awarded a scholarship for the auto tech program at LCC.

It sounds like a line pressure problem to me when it is cold the fluid is a little thicker so the car moves, when it thins out it isn't enough.

Yes you can check line pressure at the port on the passenger side. Warm it up first. Hook up your gauge, put the ebrake on and block the wheels. Should be at least 60 at idle in D/2/1, and go up at around 95 when you push the kick down all the way back.
1652873512791.png
 
Last edited:

1970FuryConv

Old Man with a Hat
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
5,189
Reaction score
4,668
Location
Richmond, VA
@1970FuryConv
Small world, I went to MSU '90-'92. Definitely not going to worry about the electrical till everything else is sorted, but over the years I've had a couple of alternators and regulators, and it seems like at minimum rpms (like stopped at a red light) the lights have always dimmed a bit like it's doing now.
Hi Dan,
It is a small world. I was at MSU from 89-91. 60 amp alternator, for look up: 1986 W150, will help your problem.

Obviously, if your filter is clean and fluid level correct at Neutral, engine hot, trans rebuild comes first. Best of luck, Ben
 

D Cluley

Active Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
277
Reaction score
324
Location
Lansing MI
Checked fluid idling in neutral?

I always hate to post that, but there's been a couple times when that's the issue.
I do know that, but glad you asked. I'd rather find a stupid mistake than have to pull the transmission. :)

@MONC440
"Yes you can check line pressure at the port on the passenger side. Warm it up first. Hook up your gauge, put the ebrake on and block the wheels. Should be at least 60 at idle in D/2/1, and go up at around 95 when you push the kick down all the way back. "

Do I raise the engine RPM to move the kick down, or move it manually while the engine continues to idle?
 

MONC440

Active Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2021
Messages
354
Reaction score
644
Location
Michigan
You can
I do know that, but glad you asked. I'd rather find a stupid mistake than have to pull the transmission. :)

@MONC440
"Yes you can check line pressure at the port on the passenger side. Warm it up first. Hook up your gauge, put the ebrake on and block the wheels. Should be at least 60 at idle in D/2/1, and go up at around 95 when you push the kick down all the way back. "

Do I raise the engine RPM to move the kick down, or move it manually while the engine continues to idle?
You don’t have to increase idle just move the kickdown.
 

cbarge

World Famous Barge in a Budget
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2010
Messages
5,024
Reaction score
8,330
Location
Kingston Ontario Eh?
Dan check your PM box.
I will be in your neck of the woods June 11 to 13th. I will be driving a C..
 

D Cluley

Active Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
277
Reaction score
324
Location
Lansing MI
Monday & Tuesday I checked the pressure at the Line Pressure & Rear Servo ports.

LINE PRESSURE PORT

Cold start, high idle cam engaged, idling for less than 2 min. No kickdown

D/2/1 pressure 68-73 psi Slight whine

N/R/P pressure 0 psi Louder whine in R, quiet in N & P

Regular Idle, engine has been running about 6 min. No Kickdown

D/2/1 pressure 45-65 (mostly 55-65) Very slight whine

N/R/P pressure 0 Maybe some whine in R, quiet in N & P

Regular Idle, engine has been running about 11 min. Full Kickdown

D/2/1 pressure 8-9 psi

N/R/P pressure 0

Regular Idle, engine has been running about 15 min. No Kickdown

D/2/1 pressure 6-7 psi

N/R/P pressure 0

REAR SERVO PORT

Cold start, high idle cam engaged, idling for less than 2 min. No kickdown

Basically 0 psi – slight twitch in R & 1 (maybe 1-2 psi)

High Idle, engine has been running about 6 min. Full Kickdown

Basically 0 psi – slight twitch in R & 1 (maybe 1-2 psi)

Regular Idle, engine has been running about 13 min. No Kickdown

0 psi in any gear


So it seems like maybe there are 2 separate things going on.

From a cold start, the forward gears are pretty normal, but after 10 min of idling it loses pressure and stops working.

Reverse isn't getting any significant pressure at all.
 
Top