Properly tuning my 383 4V

66MonacoWagon

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As I sit in front of my computer, about to click "buy" on a potential parts order, I thought it might be best to solicit the group for advice.

I have a 66 Dodge Monaco with the 383 4V, and I had changed to the Edelbrock 1406 carb last year. Original motor with no major work (to my knowledge) and 64K miles on it. The carb really helped with my choke and mixture issues. I still have a lingering miss at idle (I think I can feel it on the road as well) and want to start investigating.

I was going to start with a general tune-up. New wires, cap, condenser, possibly spark plugs. Last season I had decided maybe I should just switch to an electronic ignition, which may be the route to go. I'm no mechanic, and beyond a timing light, an old-school Sears engine analyzer and the internet to guide me I'll be doing this myself.

So, what am I asking? I want to make sure that I don't go and buy anything that will be a waste, so IF my end result may be the electronic ignition, are there things such as spark plugs, wires and distributor cap that I should buy while I assess the stock system that I won't end up buying again if I switch to electronic. I'd hate to buy the wrong wires just to have to upgrade.

Anyone that can point me to a step-by-step guide as I move forward will help as well. I guess one of the other options could be to just move forward with an electronic ignition now and not mess with a general procedural diagnosis. If that's the case, then I need advice on the most useful electronic system.

I realize that there are many discussions on here related to tune-ups, electronic ignitions, etc. I apologize if much of this is redundant.

Thanks!
Joe in Illinois
 
Wires, cap, plugs, rotor are all the same, electronic vs. points. A miss at idle may be worn points, worn distributor, or leaky valves. The surge at cruise may be lean condition with Eddy carbs, a spring change in the power piston may correct it or you may have to decrease the rod diameter. Really comes down to how picky you can be and time spent. Carb tuning can be tricky but the little book that comes with a Eddy carb is a pretty good guide. You have to make sure your ignition system is tuned up before you start or you will drive yourself insane.
I will add that the springs and metering rods can be changed without disassembly of the carb jets rrequire it coming apart.
 
The points vs electronic is a big debate, I prefer electronic. If you don't put on many miles points will do, as long as you know how to set them.

Lots of guys here run the Pertronix electronic pickup.
 
I might add that, there seems in my eyes more failures of these late electronic conversions. I'm not sure I would go with a packaged one nowadays, this is purely my opinion and I have no factual info. On the points side we seem to have seen a rash of condenser failures. If you are going to convert I would talk to Halifax shops, he is tuned into current new on distributors
 
I have no doubt the later Edelbrock made things work better than the OEM AFB did, just the normal progression of things mechanical. I concur that the normal tune-up parts for the points ignition will be the same as for an electronic system which might replace it. There are some good, OEM-level parts out there, but trying to exactly duplicate the orig OEM specs might be a bit of a challenge, sometimes. In many cases, some of what used to be common stuff is now at elevated price points as they have been superceded by upgrade parts. Like resistor spark plugs rather than non-resistor plugs. Plug wires certainly will be better, but getting the set with the right boot angles on which plugs to match what the car had on it from the factory might be something else which might be different.

On the issue of ignition distributors, it's the sharpness of the distributor cam lobes which is important. What the rubbing block of the contact points "rubbed" against to open and close the points. Some liked the "high spring tension" for allegedly better higher rpm performance, but that also meant more wear on the points' rubbing block and that distributor cam lobe, especially if the vial of point lube was not used. Even with normal points, the sharpness of these cam lobes will become worn and rounded-off. You can still set the points for the gap sped, but then the dwell spec will not be in range, when this happens. Plus, the height of the lobes can vary from cylinder to cylinder, which can ultimately affect the timing at each cylinder as a result. Things we didn't consider or worry about back then.

Many suppliers, including RockAuto, sell a "conversion kit" for electronic ignition. From the pictures, it might well be the same as the Pertronix unit, in a different logo wrapper, but I don't know that for sure, just going by the online pictures. I used to advocate for the old Mopar Performance/Direct Connection Chrysler electronic ignition conversion kit, which was all new OEM-spec, production based parts. In one kit at a good price. But from other poster, I not understand some of their vendor sourcing might not be what it used to be, fwiw, yet Mancini Racing has a similar kit they put together, which some have used.

Getting the combustion processes back to spec is a good idea, provided they seem to be a bit "off". As for further diagnosis, I'm going to recommend something other than "parts changing", which has happened from my own experiences with the '66-'70 383s our family has had (and still have). That would be, first, a "Cylinder Balance Test" to take one spark plug wire off at a time, or using a diagnostic machine to electronically kill one cylinder at a time. The watch for a weak cylinder that has less rpm drop when that cylinder is deactivated. Then, follow that with a compression test, using a flex-tube tester rather than one you press into the spark plug hole, to verify the weak cylinder. Additionally, if you have or have access to a Leak-Down Tester, that might further pinpoint where the compression loss might be.

From our experiences, if the car has close to 80K miles on it, then it could very possibly be a burnt valve on #7 cylinder. Which was a common issue on the '66, '67, and '70 383s we had. When the valve guide wears, the valve guide seal wollers-out and oil consumption can increase a bit, BUT it also lets the valve not seat firmly, even be a bit off-center when/as it seats, which leads to exhaust leakage on the compression stroke. Which can lead to a "hot spot" on the valve, which can then cause further erosion of one part of the valve's outer circumference.

A shade-tree check for a burnt valve is to take a red shop rag and hold it over the exhaust pipe tip as the engine is idling. With the burnt valve, in addition to it not holding compression, it can also "suck" on the non-compression times. Which will visibly pull the rag into the pipe, for the split second that the negative pressure pulse exists. It's visible as you hold the rag loosely across the pipe's end. With a dual exhaust, you might need to block the pipe on the pass side where the heat riser is?

A vacuum gauge might also be a diagnostic tool, but with varied results, at least for me.

The can will have a rough idle in gear, less so in "P" of "N". Once at cruise, it will be smooth, but when needing additional power to go up a hill, that's when you notice the power loss most, by observation.

Might not be what you're looking for, just stating my own experiences over the years, from back when those cars were "just used cars".

As for replacement parts, the orig spark plug spec was Champion J-10Y on the 4bbls and J-14Y for the 2bbls. All non-resistor plugs. No problem using something like a J-12Y. Chrysler later went to a J-13Y for the 400 2bbls in '72, They all showed the same insulator color on a stock engine, back then, from my experiences. Personally, I got great results with Motorcraft spark plugs back then. Even better durability than the Champtions, but the Champions weren't bad either, for that matter. Going to a later version with copper core is "no issue", so long as the heat range number and gap style ("Y") are the same. Gap at .035"

As I recall, the distributor end of the spark plug wires were all "straights". All of the plug ends, except for #6 and #8 (which were "straights" and "over the valve cover" routing) were right angle ends. Chrysler started using some 135 degree rear plug boots on the '72 400s. They look neat but can be broken if they aren't pulled off correctly. Check the listings at TockAuto for related images of the wire sets, for reference and pricing. Then look for local sources of the same or similar products. I used to like the old Borg-Warner Kool Wires magnetic suppression wires, but for normal use, a quality brand with the correct ends is more important for correct fit and performance.

Nothing special about the cap and rotor, as long as they come from the same brand, to me. The OEMs were the tan color. Brass contacts or otherwise, a stock motor doesn't need anything special. Same on the coil and coil wire. Pertronix might want you to buy their high-output coil, but others use a stock coil, as Chrysler did. I've tried replacement coils in the place of the OEM coils and found no difference in performance. So if the current one works, it'll probably continue working, from my experience.

Before you get any deeper, I'd suggest getting the cylinder balance test done. Might be that your scope can do that? Or perhaps after a close-tolerance spark plug gapping session, you can tell the weak cylinder by its lower ignition trace "spike", as the weaker cylinder will not have as much compression, resulting in the coil needing to build less voltage to fire that particular plug. When I would do that, then take the '66 Chrysler to the dealer to get the speed/mixture adjusted ( I had no dwell tack at that time), the plug firing traces would all be within 1KV of each other at idle. So, you might play with that and see what happens.

If you remove the rock shield from the lower steering coupling, with one Phillips head screw, it makes access to #7 plug almost good enough to not need a wobble socket on that plug. Just don't lose the screw and put the shield back on when done.

Sorry for the length and the fact that I might have mentioned some things you might not have expected, just my own experiences.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
The points vs electronic is a big debate, I prefer electronic. If you don't put on many miles points will do, as long as you know how to set them.

And you can say similar things about whether to put "normal" spark plugs in it, or go with the newer (much longer lasting) Iridium plugs (at a higher cost). Again, Rock Auto can be a good research source.

I had no problem getting the old Champions going 12K, with a precision gapping Sunday afternoon once in that time. The old Motorcrafts went longer. The newer Iridiums should be "forever", in that respect.

Only thing about using the more expensive stuff is that if some later owner comes along and thinks its not running right, all or most of that stuff could end up in the trash can, automatically condemned by them without first checking to actually see what might be amiss. DumDums! But I've seen that happen, too, unfortunately. So the best way might be to use the OEM-spec items and nothing else? In my advancing age, I don't lay over fenders as nicely as I used to, so the "forever" plugs/items might be a good investment in "not having to mess with them" nor wanting to pay a shop to do the work. Be that as it may.

I enjoyed those Sunday afternoons, taking the plugs out, looking at the ceramic insulator color (and any accumulations), using my point file to square-up the center electrode, getting the gap set for just the right resistance to the wire gap gauge I was using, then putting drop of motor oil on the plug threads and putting it all back together "just so". The pride of knowing it was done right, rather than "slapped together". Then getting the idle speed/mixture set "just so", too. Just made things seem to work better and knowing that I did it made me smile.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
Joe, I have to sign on to your thread since we have similar cars with identical drivetrains. My car has 123,000 miles on it but runs pretty well. I had carb issues and after two unsuccessful rebuild attempts I also replaced it with a 1406 Edelbrock. The only other tune related thing I've done is replace the plugs because they were seriously fouled from the carb adventures. I used Champion plugs but forgot the number. It runs well with no missing but the idle is a bit rough. I do intend a further ignition tuneup which will involve pulling the distributor, checking for wear, cleaning and lubricating and new points, condenser, cap and rotor. If everything else is ok I don't believe in automatically throwing in an electronic ignition on a lightly driven non-performance engine. Now if I find out that my distributor needs to be replaced then I may go with one of the electronic kits.

If you have a persistent miss noticeable when you are driving I agree with those above - first thing to do is a compression test. Good luck.
 
My 2 cents: Generally, you want a larger diameter plug wire, I think 8 mm for electronic ignition. Switch to electronic ignition. Buy a rebuilt distributor from the FCBO member that rebuilds them, order the wiring harness, an Accel brand cap and rotor, a heavy duty ballast resistor and buy the marine rated ignition modules that I sell on eBay (same user ID as on this forum) ($20 + shipping) along with the electronic/solid state voltage regulator that I also sell on eBay (or convert and you will never regret doing so as I haven't on any of my cars.
 
Agreed, these leaks can usually result in a hair rougher idle. Check the mounting nuts to re-snug them down. My experiences have been that the base gaskets supplied with replacement carbs are usually the "thin" gaskets. When I've swapped them for the "thick" OEM-style base gaskets with (usually) the plastic or steel inserts in the base stud holes, no more similar issues.

CBODY67
 
The diz guy here is @halifaxhops - a good guy.

Always always check and recheck for a carb to intake mounting leak. Sometimes hard to detect.
Vac leaks can suck to find. Had some doozies over the years. I know this is a hard try find some one with a scope or a cyl kill meter to see if it is just one cylinder misfiring. Then go from there. Helps narrow it down a hell of a lot.
 
I appreciate all the input. I'm feeling more confident on how to progressively approach this!
 
My .02. I think all good suggestions but I'd go with CBODY67 'cuz I think he'z on the right track talking about the Accelerator Pump not functioning properly and now my story az to why. In the mid '80s after I became caretaker of the 300 Hurst I added to the stable, I had the same issue with the 4bbl. AVS it came with. Also at that time I'd been befriended by a Chrysler Tech that became my go to guy in Ann Arbor, Mi. That knew hiz KA-KAH inside and out and lived less then a mile from me. He said I'll drop over this Saturday If that O.K. and I said I'll have the beer cold and waiting. He showed up and we jumped in the Hurst with me az the passenger and we went for a ride. After 3-4 hole shots we came back to our place . Upped the hood and disassembled the top of the AVS so he then could remove and disassemble the Accelerator Pump spring. He stretched the spring out holding it between his fingers and thumbs of both handz adding MAYBE 1/2 INCH TO THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE SPRING, put it back together and we went for another 3-4 hole shot ride. ABSOLUTELY NO MORE STUMBLE. End of story, Jer
 
66 300 383 4bbl.
#7 burnt valve.
Got rid of the small valve 516 heads and poor flowing original 4bbl intake.
Used a 301 casting 68-70 intake with a fresh set of 452 heads.
Pertronix ignition and 625 CFM Eddy electric choke with heat crossover blocked off.
1 inch spacer under the carb and 14 inch open air filter.
TTi 2.5 exhaust system. 18 MPG on a 278,000 bottom end.
Drove her to Carlisle in 2016 after being off the road since 1998
Intitial timing is at 11 degrees with 35 degrees all in at 2500 RPM.
2.76 gears with 2157514 tires.
1966 300 revival 059.JPG

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1966 300 revival 038.JPG
 
Was it a new 1406? Do they just put crappy accelerator pump springs in new carburetors?
Nope. This carb was the one the car waz born with, so it waz 15-16 YO at the time, and you could still get the Pump rodz with a leather piston and push rod of Brass not plastic. Bottom line iz that It worked AND WORKED WELL, and it's one of those little bit of knowledge you carry with you for your life time and play it forward when applicable, Jer
 
Nope. This carb was the one the car waz born with, so it waz 15-16 YO at the time, and you could still get the Pump rodz with a leather piston and push rod of Brass not plastic. Bottom line iz that It worked AND WORKED WELL, and it's one of those little bit of knowledge you carry with you for your life time and play it forward when applicable, Jer
 
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