QUESTION ABOUT PISTONS

Ross Wooldridge

Old Man with a Hat
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Hi everyone,

I have a 1966 issue 440 for which I will require replacement pistons. I am going to sleeve the block back to original bore. I will be using reconditioned 516 heads as they are what came on the engine originally.

I have a chance to buy a set of used original factory 440 pistons out of a 1973 440. All in good shape (I trust the seller, he's a member here and a personal friend).

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The question is about the compression ratio - the original compression ratio of the 66 440 was 10.5:1, and if I recall correctly, the pistons sat just a tad in the hole. I need to know if the 73 440 pistons will be the same compression ratio, and if they'll be suitable to retain the original compression ratio.

Thanks in advance!
 
Hi everyone,

I have a 1966 issue 440 for which I will require replacement pistons. I am going to sleeve the block back to original bore. I will be using reconditioned 516 heads as they are what came on the engine originally.

I have a chance to buy a set of used original factory 440 pistons out of a 1973 440. All in good shape (I trust the seller, he's a member here and a personal friend).

View attachment 530384 View attachment 530385

The question is about the compression ratio - the original compression ratio of the 66 440 was 10.5:1, and if I recall correctly, the pistons sat just a tad in the hole. I need to know if the 73 440 pistons will be the same compression ratio, and if they'll be suitable to retain the original compression ratio.

Thanks in advance!
Ross,

My experience is that actual compression was a lot lower than actually advertised. I would doubt that the original 66 was anywhere near 10.5:1. My 65 383 was nowhere close to advertised.

Not sure what your ultimate goal is, but my approach would be to identify actual compression that you need so that you can run the motor on whatever modern gas you want and build the motor accordingly. I would think that you can get away with just a tad more compression with the closed chambered 516 head as the quench is much better than an open chambered head like the 906. BTW - my 65 516 heads came in right around 75 cc when I measured them - that can give you an idea on head volume when calculating compression ratio.

So personally I would measure the 73 pistons and calculate the compression ratio based on the measured pistion dimensions, deck height, gasket you will use and 75 cc heads, etc. Are these flat or dish pistons? Kind of hard to see in the picture. A competent machinist would not have any issue measuring the pistons for compression ratio. Personally I would put them on my CNC and probe the dimensions, but there are many other mechanical ways to measure the piston dimensions. Of course if dished, you need to accurately measure the dish cc.

I personally would not be comfortable with any other answers. I got bit building my 67 383 and ended up with 8.1:1 compression. Had to scramble to get it to 8.9:1.

My 2 cents...........
 
They won't be. Just how much lower CR I don't know.

Open chambered heads (73) versus closed chambered (516) - could be higher......

On my 65 383 going from closed chambered 516 heads to open chambered 906 heads dropped compression ratio basically one whole point.
 
Checking some more, my 65 383 was advertised at 9.2:1 compression. Actual measured was 8.35:1. But I also now see that the 73 is rated at only 8.2:1 compression. I don't know if by 73 they became more realistic in the advertised compression ratios or not. But 10.5:1 to 8.2:1 is a huge diffrence, even with open versus closed heads. But without measuring, I still say you are guessing.
 
Ross, you might want to check actual dimensions of the '73 pistons, especially the all important top surface, and compare to the original '66 ones. I see the '73 pistons are flat, sans dishing, but what is their height? How much volume is in the cylinder at TDC? If the '66 pistons are a little "taller" then that bodes ill for keeping high compression with these. I commend your decision to stick with 516 heads on this machine too. That will help with your compression.

You can estimate the deltaV at TDC based on the piston heights, if all else in their geometry is equal. The CR at TDC will be relative to the volume. What will be your volume at BDC? Check this. CR will be ~ VBDC/VTDC.

God-willing, I can get a motor with the 915 heads I got going THIS SUMMER! I like the 400, IFF some other issues can be addressed, or the 383 I'm now running, if the bottom end isn't too badly thrashed. I'm looking for another "runner" to drop in as an interim solution, should it become necessary. Our latest Mopar, the '83 Ram D150 Miser has diverted my attention some from Gertrude, but I've now got that /6 running VERY sweetly, and its in ++Good shape, so its time to get back to C Body Space.
 
I'll admit that I concur that the advertised CR CAN always be a bit less than actual CR. But my orientation is that it can't be a big lot of difference OR that all will measure the exact same.

Let's consider "advertised" as "blueprint specification", which is what NHRA and other major racing racing bodies use to determine if an engine is "legal" in the post-win teardowns. So, getting the block decked to spec, using pistons with the ORIG spec deck height (i.e., compression distance), getting the heads CC'd for correct combustion chamber volume (which can include how much the valves are "sunk" into their valve seats), and using the orig ..018-.020" compressed distance steel shim head gaskets will be the only way to get to that orig advertised/blueprint CR.

In my experiences, the '66 Newport we bought in early '67 with 7100 miles on it (383-2bbl) would NOT run on regular fuel back then. Timing was at factory spec. Had to run Premium in it to keep it quiet. With premium, I could bump the timing to 15 degrees BTDC from the spec 12.5 degrees BTDC for a slight bit more off-idle response. This was with the rated 9.2CR.

When I got my '67 Newport CE23 in 1981, it had the optional 383 4bbl engine (10.5 advertised CR). Had to run 91 pump octane super unleaded in it. No problem. It had a burnt valve on #7, so my machine shop operative had a set of abandoned 906s laying around, so we/I did the bronze heli-coil guide work and I had a set of NOS 440-6bbl valves, so we reconditioned them. When assembled with .040" compressed thickness head gaskets, it would "trace rattle" at WOT in 2nd gear. Again, with the timing at factory specs. Otherwise, it was quiet and ran well. No changes when I upgraded to the Mopar Perf electronic ignition kit later on. I had computed that the former 10.5 engine should be in the mid-9sCR range. When we pulled the heads from both 383s, there was no large accumulation of deposits on the piston tops and certainly not in the combustion chambers. just "normal" for an engine driven on the highway, it seemed.

The fuels used in the '66, earlier on were full-leaded fuels, when Regular was 95 Research Octane and Premium was 97+ Research Octane. Later, the Phillips 66 Flite Fuel I was using in it in the 1973+ time frame had a pump octane of 95, which should have been approx 99+ Research Octane, still leaded but with reduced lead from the earlier days.

So, the 9.2CR engine would not run on 94 Research Octane fuels, quietly. and the 10.5 engine would run well on 94-95 Super Unleaded fuels with 906s on it.

In a SAE Transaction Paper I found in the automotive engineering section of the Texas Tech Library, for the original RB 413 in 1957, it stated that the spec fuel used for calibrations was 97 Research Octane "premium" fuel. So that wouid have been what was used to determine the spark advance curves, I suspect, as that was pretty much what was available, back then, for Premium gasolines. Of course, there could have been variations of probably plus/minus 1 Research Octane number, in the real world. I'm sure they used not only a spec fuel but also bought fuel on the open market for actual road testing, back then.

I also observed, in the earlier 1970s that the TX DPS only purchased Regular-grade fuel for their enforcement vehicles. Which were (except for 1968) Plymouth Furys with 383 4bbls and some Ford Galaxie 390s. As they saw little/limited WOT use, the regular fuel apparently worked decently well.

In some cases, unless you are going to competively race the motor, the CR makes less of a real power difference than "feel" does. Is off-idle response good enough to burn rubber a good bit? Will the engine eagerly send the speedo needle into the triple digits without a lot of coaxing? AND will it run quietly, start quickly, and get decent fuel economy?

We all want the most effieicent engine around in what we rebuild, understandably so, but I also suspect that the real "feel" between a 9.5CR engine and a 10.5CR engine will be more negliable than some might suspect. Considering that I computed, back in the later 1960s, that a Chrysler TF powertrain comsumed about 15% of engine power before it got to the rear wheels. Which can make 20 engine horsepower difference much less when the rear wheel turn. Which can make the "feel" more important, in the real world. BTAIM

There are other side issues with replacement pistons since the earlier 1980s when it appeared that the best fuels we'd get were 91 pump octane super unleadeds. That's for another thread, but important. One thing that not many people might know about, but my machine shop operative did as he did lots of circle track and drag racing engines.

BUT back to the original issue of using the 1973 pistons with closed chamber heads, the spec for those pistons is still .125" "in the hole" at TDC, which will not build a good CR, although with a cam choice, they can work decently well.

The other thing is that from my research on pistons, until you get into forged pistons (rather than cast), you are pretty much stuck with low CR pistons. With .040-.060" compressed distance head gaskets. Sometimes you can't win for losing!

Just some thoughts and experiences,
CBODY67
 
Thanks everybody for your responses. I understand that advertised compression ratios and what the compression ratio actually is are two different things. Regardless, I do not want to increase the compression ratio, and I am just performing a stock rebuild.

These used pistons are flat tops. I fully expect that the compression ratio would be less with these Pistons then what would have been used originally in mine.

How much so is what I want to find out.

If it's going to be a drastic drop in compression then I'll pass on them. If it's only going to be a point or half a point (regardless of advertised compression ratios and actual compression ratios), then I would like to buy them and deal with maintaining the best-case scenario with head gaskets.

The engine was so seized up that I had to break the pistons apart that were in there, and so I don't have any to compare. I will be sleeving the block to go back to factory bore.

If anybody can tell me what the advertised compression ratio was for a 1973 440, and whether the pistons sat above the deck (due to the use of different heads than the 516s I intend to use), or in the hole - that's all I really need to know.
 
If CBODY67 is correct and the 73 pistons are .125" in the hole (I suspect he is correct but I could not find that data in the FSM), my calculation is that you would be in the 9.2:1 range with 516 heads and a 0.020 head gasket. To me that is purty close to where you want to be on a stock motor with today's fuel. The 73 440 rated compression is 8.2:1. You also can shave the heads to get the compression up some or use a thicker gasket, or deck the block some........

But everything would need to be measured to verify actual compression..........
 
If you get the compression height of the 73 pistons, measure top of pin to top of piston and bottom of pin to top of piston, add, then divide by 2. Compare to old pistons (listed compression height). Use online compression calculators and you will get a idea of amount of compression drop you are going to experience.
If you have the old pistons out you can measure them and compare.
 
If CBODY67 is correct and the 73 pistons are .125" in the hole (I suspect he is correct but I could not find that data in the FSM), my calculation is that you would be in the 9.2:1 range with 516 heads and a 0.020 head gasket. To me that is purty close to where you want to be on a stock motor with today's fuel. The 73 440 rated compression is 8.2:1. You also can shave the heads to get the compression up some or use a thicker gasket, or deck the block some........

But everything would need to be measured to verify actual compression..........

If you get the compression height of the 73 pistons, measure top of pin to top of piston and bottom of pin to top of piston, add, then divide by 2. Compare to old pistons (listed compression height). Use online compression calculators and you will get a idea of amount of compression drop you are going to experience.
If you have the old pistons out you can measure them and compare.

Now that's exactly the sort of answers I was looking for.

Thanks gents!
 
If CBODY67 is correct and the 73 pistons are .125" in the hole (I suspect he is correct but I could not find that data in the FSM), my calculation is that you would be in the 9.2:1 range with 516 heads and a 0.020 head gasket. To me that is purty close to where you want to be on a stock motor with today's fuel. The 73 440 rated compression is 8.2:1. You also can shave the heads to get the compression up some or use a thicker gasket, or deck the block some........

But everything would need to be measured to verify actual compression..........
You will not find that spec in the FSM, in any model year. But it might be in the Mopar Perf/Direct Connection Race Manual on the B/RB engines.
 
The reason I was figuring on this sort of deal, is that I have a NOS 440MHC short block from Chrysler. '72 model year, I believe. I also have the heads off of my '67 383 4bbl that needed to be somewhere other than against the wall. So I figured the 440 would be a good place for them, but nothing has happened in the last 20 years in that respect. But I figured that the ultimate CR would be in the lower Nines, which would be fine for the pump gas of the later 1980s.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
The reason I was figuring on this sort of deal, is that I have a NOS 440MHC short block from Chrysler. '72 model year, I believe. I also have the heads off of my '67 383 4bbl that needed to be somewhere other than against the wall. So I figured the 440 would be a good place for them, but nothing has happened in the last 20 years in that respect. But I figured that the ultimate CR would be in the lower Nines, which would be fine for the pump gas of the later 1980s.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

Are your 67 heads 915 or 516? I need to find me another set of good 67 383 heads. I shaved mine so much to get to 8.9:1 compression that I want to find another set for the next rebuild time. Memory serves me that they are 915 heads.......
 
I'll ask to see the math on a .125" in the hole piston with a 78-82cc 516 head making 9.2:1...

I've handled a few sets of heads, never cc'ed an uncut 516 that was actually very small.
 
Let me know. Thanks!

My rebuilder says that if the pistons reduce the overall compression a tad, it's likely a good thing for the crappy fuel we're dealing with these days.
 
Let me know. Thanks!

My rebuilder says that if the pistons reduce the overall compression a tad, it's likely a good thing for the crappy fuel we're dealing with these days.

Running that late 1965 383 has always required either Shell Premium or Chevron Premium in this border town. Both of these are 91 octane moonshine blend fuels, and these are the only stuff I can buy that doesn't ping. If you get anything like 9:1 out of the build, tell us!
 
The reason I was figuring on this sort of deal, is that I have a NOS 440MHC short block from Chrysler. '72 model year, I believe. I also have the heads off of my '67 383 4bbl that needed to be somewhere other than against the wall. So I figured the 440 would be a good place for them, but nothing has happened in the last 20 years in that respect. But I figured that the ultimate CR would be in the lower Nines, which would be fine for the pump gas of the later 1980s.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

Maybe if I'm good, get my 400 going this summer, I'll set my sights on a 440 build. I recall seeing in some stroker kits some rather short Silvolite pistons for stroking a 400. I don't want to do that with mine, but its interesting how that stuff gets designed....
 
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