Question about Turbochargers....

[Eye_on_Fury]

Ok so first off I did do a search and couldn't find anything on this, second this may not be the right place for this question but seems like the right spot.

I'm beginning to lean toward turbos as power adders, don't want to cut a hole in my hood and throttle in a bottle just isn't my schtick. I know very little about them and I'm self teaching myself as much as I can.

I have come across a feature on water+oil cooled models that I haven't noticed on oil only models and I would like to know what it is and does.

It's a canister that looks like it boost or flow registers and actuates linkage in the down tube end of the housing. Does anyone know what this is and does. I have no intention of buying this model it's just representative. I will be going water+oil so I want to know as much as I can about the components as possible.

This is probably a noob question about Turbochargers, then again I am a noob when it come to turbos so makes sense....

 

[MetalManiacAZ]

Looks like a wastegate to me. It keeps the turbo from supplying too much boost by opening a valve and allowing the exhaust to bypass the compressor. That almost flat pinched hose in the first pic won't do that model any good though.

 

[Eye_on_Fury]

It's an integral waste gate for dumping exhaust gas that isn't needed.

Taking the Garrett Installer Connect courses they offer for free and it was cover in the second session. Was gonna go Borge Warner but since Garrett has invested in smart consumers, they've won my business.

I'll pull the thread down soon as I figure out how

 

[Eye_on_Fury]

Looks like a wastegate to me. It keeps the turbo from supplying too much boost by opening a valve and allowing the exhaust to bypass the compressor. That almost flat pinched hose in the first pic won't do that model any good though.

Thank you!!! I wish I noticed your reply before I posted

 

[Xenon]

@furious70 has done this and would be a good source of info on the subject.....



.

 

[68PK21 440.6bbl]

It keeps the turbo from supplying too much boost

I thought it was just there so the jackazzzes in they're little shitboxes could make noise so everyone knows they have a turbo, kinda like the other backfiring jackazzes with the fartcan mufflers.


.

 

[CBODY67]

Garrett has done more turbos than probably anybody else, for longer. Didn't know Borg-Warner was into that.

Key thing on turbos is their sizing. Small gets better and quicker spool-up, but larger makes more power. A BIG balancing act, by observation.

Now, go into the cam catalogs and look at the turbo cams and compare them to naturally-aspirated cams to see where the differences might be to make them a "turbo cam".

Turbos work on heat and flow, which means underhood heat shielding is usually needed. PLUS (according to a Ford service document I saw in the middle 1980s), you need to not rev the motor on initial cold start-up and then let it idle a minute or so for the impeller speed to decrease before tuning off the engine and related oil supply. Remember that little scoop on the hoods of the Chrysler K-car turbos, for turbo convection cooling after shut-down?

The other thing about turbos is plumbing the exhaust system to dump into the turbo and then into the outside air. It can require SPACE and heat shielding.

The old Latham-style supercharger is low profile and does not heat the incoming charge as much as other types do, which means they work well at lower boost levels . . . as I understand it. The OEM-style superchargers are also low profile, but require some underhood items to make them work.

Either way, it's going to require adaptation and a good bit of re-engineering to make either "blower" work as it can work.

One reason that OEM turbos disappeared after the 1980s was due to cold-start emissions and the OEMs not wanting to go to a more expensive oxygen sensor (which many later did anyway). The turbo acts like a big heat sink, so heat didn't get to the cat converter to make it work, until the engine had been running for a little bit. Converters didn't fire-off quick enough and cold start emissions suffered. BTAIM

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[MetalManiacAZ]

then let it idle a minute or so for the impeller speed to decrease before tuning off the engine and related oil supply.

This is a big one. You can cook your oil if you shut off the engine right after driving. If you decide to go that route, get an EGT gauge. It blows my mind that not all diesel trucks come with this gauge from the factory. That gauge will also help keep you from melting pistons when you're really working the engine.

 

[furious70]

An integral wastegate like that is a very compact package but in order to use it you have to be able to use the unit with the hot and cold sides clocked just like the OEM did. When building your own custom turbo setup that likely won't be possible, so you need external wastegates.

While I would watch egts drop at idle on my diesel when pulling off the road towing, my experience with the gas turbos in my fury has been egts drop almost immediately when you
let off the gas, no need to idle cool down.

borg warner is a trusted turbo manufacturer

i have turbo blankets and parts of my piping wrapped. Yes it gets hot when stuck in traffic. Pipes have been wrapped for a decade and haven't rotted at all, for those who believe that old wife's tale.

 

[twostick]

I thought it was just there so the jackazzzes in they're little shitboxes could make noise so everyone knows they have a turbo, kinda like the other backfiring jackazzes with the fartcan mufflers.


.

That's the blow off valve. Different component.

Kevin

 

[fury fan]

I have come across a feature on water+oil cooled models that I haven't noticed on oil only models and I would like to know what it is and does.

There are no 'oil-cooled' turbos. All of them have oil to feed the journal bushing (or some have ball bearings) and then usually OEM turbos have water cooling to make warranty. (yes, the oil helps cool it, but lube is its primary function, just like the engine it's attached to)

A well-implemented turbo is probably the most effective power-adder available, but it takes a lot of effort to realize such an installation. Learnign, research, planning, fabrication, installation, tuning - then lather, rinse, repeat. Anyone that plans to shortcut along the way better have a light/cautious foot or a supply of junkyard longblocks to swap in.

There is the turboforums.com (if it still exists) and at one time it had a Mopar-specific forum. There is a lot of good info there, but also a lot of threads that say 'I don't know anything about cars, or turbos, but I just bought my first car and I want to install a turbo and make 1000 RWHP - how do I do it?'.

 

[CBODY67]

Whether you do turbos or superchargers, they are easier to do with a fuel injected engine rather than a carb, by observation. Pushing pressurized air through a carb will shoot fuel out the bowl vent unless you enclose the carb in a pressure box (as some of the middle 1960s Shelby Mustangs did. True, you can mount the carb on the intake side of things, as on a GMC 6-71 blower, but fuel injection can make the plumbing and fabrication processes much easier.

In EITHER case, the pressurized will add heat to the intake mixture, which will decrease power a bit and aid detonation under power. Which is where Intercoolers come in, which is MORE fabrication!

As mentioned, great execution is the key to a good turbo installation that "looks factory" AND works as it should. Turbo's main advantage is that all of the additional power is "free", whereas it takes some horsepower to run a supercharger. IF that really matters.

In current times, the OEMs are using turbos to increase power on SMALL engines so they make power comparable to a larger engine. NOT for the glory of things, but to meet tighter emissions and fuel economy regulations. BUT it takes a Fuselage C-body trunkload-sized bunch of electronics to make it all work. NOT to forget the cost of such!

BUT all of that fuel economy advantage quickly goes away when your throttle foot pushes the accel pedal too much and too far.

Diesels were where the GMC -71 blowers originally came from. Diesels need turbos to run as well as they do or can. Diesels have a limited rpm range in which to work, due to the massive amount of weight slinging around inside the motor, which gets to be massively heavier, which is why the blocks have to be so massive, compared to a gas motor of the same horsepower. But diesels are about TORQUE at 2000rpm rather than horsepower at 3000rpm, by observation.

As an example, I recently drove one of the GM 1500 pickups with the 4cyl Duramax. It runs decently well, but definitely more of a cruiser with a high tow capacity. A few times, I torqued it up against the brake, then flooring it as I released the brake. It felt good and made some nice sounds (tires included), but as soon as it shifted from 1-2 at about 3200rpm (when you'd be expecting it to get better), all of the fun stopped quickly and you knew you were in a 4cyl 5000lb vehicle. So it'll be fine for drivers not in a hurry, that are more concerned about fuel economy, than for many of us, by observation.

So, if you want to really stuff the engine compartment with tubes and pipes for a turbo, go for it. Be sure to engineer it so that you can still do maintenance items as time progresses, too. PLUS an hvac system for the engine compartment so the reliability and durability of other items is not compromised, just for good measure. Sure, all of that will not generate heat unless the system is under boost, but how little time might that really be?

One of the little GM 4cyl motors has the turbo mounted at the outles of the exhaust manifold. When I looked at it, the turbo was small enough I could hold it in my hand. But then it was for a 1.5L engine. Much smaller than the ones for the current Duramax, PowerStrokes, or Cummins diesels.

Now, @feets used to have a double-turbo '65 Belvedere RB car he built. Doable. It was even on a magazine cover. But it took lots of careful fab and engineering to make it work, which he did himself.

Your $$$$$$, your dreams,
Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[volksworld]

i come here from the VW side of things...the oil cooked in the turbos so badly it formed little granules that clogged the fine screens in the oil pickups...resulting in low oil pressure and destroyed bearings...this led VW to come up with there own oil spec VW 500 00...and many subsequent numbers after that...(think they're up to 507 now)...BMW had similar issues...thats why you'll see "european spec" oils out there and if you go thru the fine print on the bottle it'll say meets vw 502 00 /505 00 etc...now obviously this type of oil is great for turbo heat...but probably has too much detergent and too little ZDDP for our engines...and i have no idea if oil like Joe Gibbs Driven and the like are compatible with turbo temps...so do your research

 

[furious70]

Don't forget many fwd 4cyl turbo cars sandwich the turbo between the engine and firewall where it gets cooked. Turbos up front or down low on a v8 get 'more' fresh air

 

[CBODY67]

I bought some black bottle Castrol about 10 yrs ago which was VW 50_ and "SL" rated, so should be 1000ppm zddp.

On the first GM turbos, like Turbo Monte Carlo in the earlier 1980s, when the turbo seals cooked, on the output side of the impeller, it would allow the engine oil to be sucked out of the system, emptying the crankcase at the most inopportune time. Seems like they had a shorter recommended oil change interval, too? Which led to the "turbo rated" motor oils, back then, but I seem to recall that THAT designation was rolled into one of the later API designations.

 

[twostick]

The problem is people don't let a turbo cool properly. They come flying in off the highway and just park it and shut it off. The oil quits flowing and proceeds to cook in the bushing. Cruising into destination at no boost for a few minutes gives the oil time to pull the heat out of the exhaust impeller thru the shaft and get the temp below oil combustion temp. Barring that you should just let it idle for 3 minutes before you kill it.

Kevin

 

[Eye_on_Fury]

An integral wastegate like that is a very compact package but in order to use it you have to be able to use the unit with the hot and cold sides clocked just like the OEM did. When building your own custom turbo setup that likely won't be possible, so you need external wastegates.

While I would watch egts drop at idle on my diesel when pulling off the road towing, my experience with the gas turbos in my fury has been egts drop almost immediately when you
let off the gas, no need to idle cool down.

borg warner is a trusted turbo manufacturer

i have turbo blankets and parts of my piping wrapped. Yes it gets hot when stuck in traffic. Pipes have been wrapped for a decade and haven't rotted at all, for those who believe that old wife's tale.

I don't know why I didn't get an email about all these replies...

You came recommended earlier as a source of info for turbos but you did it on the exact same car I'm planning. Mine is a 69 sport came with a 383 that in time will be stroked and the twins added.

I'm curious if you went single or twin and if you also had the B block are there any big problems or headaches you could steer me away from while I'm still in the 'everything is on paper' stage. I'm going to make my own headers for this build and have been thinking about primary sizing. 1 ⅞" is usually recommended for naturally aspirated for the scavenging benefits and I was thinking a step up to 2" is more appropriate, what did you use? Thanks in advance for any help or advice you can offer.

 

[Eye_on_Fury]

Whether you do turbos or superchargers, they are easier to do with a fuel injected engine rather than a carb, by observation. Pushing pressurized air through a carb will shoot fuel out the bowl vent unless you enclose the carb in a pressure box (as some of the middle 1960s Shelby Mustangs did. True, you can mount the carb on the intake side of things, as on a GMC 6-71 blower, but fuel injection can make the plumbing and fabrication processes much easier.

In EITHER case, the pressurized will add heat to the intake mixture, which will decrease power a bit and aid detonation under power. Which is where Intercoolers come in, which is MORE fabrication!

As mentioned, great execution is the key to a good turbo installation that "looks factory" AND works as it should. Turbo's main advantage is that all of the additional power is "free", whereas it takes some horsepower to run a supercharger. IF that really matters.

In current times, the OEMs are using turbos to increase power on SMALL engines so they make power comparable to a larger engine. NOT for the glory of things, but to meet tighter emissions and fuel economy regulations. BUT it takes a Fuselage C-body trunkload-sized bunch of electronics to make it all work. NOT to forget the cost of such!

BUT all of that fuel economy advantage quickly goes away when your throttle foot pushes the accel pedal too much and too far.

Diesels were where the GMC -71 blowers originally came from. Diesels need turbos to run as well as they do or can. Diesels have a limited rpm range in which to work, due to the massive amount of weight slinging around inside the motor, which gets to be massively heavier, which is why the blocks have to be so massive, compared to a gas motor of the same horsepower. But diesels are about TORQUE at 2000rpm rather than horsepower at 3000rpm, by observation.

As an example, I recently drove one of the GM 1500 pickups with the 4cyl Duramax. It runs decently well, but definitely more of a cruiser with a high tow capacity. A few times, I torqued it up against the brake, then flooring it as I released the brake. It felt good and made some nice sounds (tires included), but as soon as it shifted from 1-2 at about 3200rpm (when you'd be expecting it to get better), all of the fun stopped quickly and you knew you were in a 4cyl 5000lb vehicle. So it'll be fine for drivers not in a hurry, that are more concerned about fuel economy, than for many of us, by observation.

So, if you want to really stuff the engine compartment with tubes and pipes for a turbo, go for it. Be sure to engineer it so that you can still do maintenance items as time progresses, too. PLUS an hvac system for the engine compartment so the reliability and durability of other items is not compromised, just for good measure. Sure, all of that will not generate heat unless the system is under boost, but how little time might that really be?

One of the little GM 4cyl motors has the turbo mounted at the outles of the exhaust manifold. When I looked at it, the turbo was small enough I could hold it in my hand. But then it was for a 1.5L engine. Much smaller than the ones for the current Duramax, PowerStrokes, or Cummins diesels.

Now, @feets used to have a double-turbo '65 Belvedere RB car he built. Doable. It was even on a magazine cover. But it took lots of careful fab and engineering to make it work, which he did himself.

Your $$$$$$, your dreams,
Enjoy!
CBODY67

All good points, thank you.

I'm not looking for a 1,000 hp b block, I've seen the cars that look like they're smuggling a couple top secret engines out of Boeing. I want to run a couple turbos to compliment the build not cover up where I cheaped out. Believe it or not my problem has been trying to find turbos that are small enough. With my theoretical volumetric flow numbers all the units are topping out at 1300 HP or more. That's just dumb for what I'd like to build. Looking like I'm gonna have to run a single to stop some runaway mess. I'm not 100% sold on the idea of a turbo but the shorter blowers aren't stacking up either. I'll keep crunching numbers.

Someone mentioned K-cars having blowers, and I had never heard of that. My first car was an '85 Reliant K-car, God that would have been fun. Shoebox just screaming down the highway....

 

[Eye_on_Fury]

And I do plan on using a Holley or equivalent aftermarket efi

 

[furious70]

Send me a pm with your email and I'll send you some things.
Mines a 383 because that's what it was. 440 would have made fitment worse.