Setting Timing On a Lean-Burn

77newyorker440

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Hey guys,
I am currently working on learning how to set timing while my carb is out with @Dana, and I wanted to check some things with you guys.
1. What does the lean-burn do to timing? I have heard that it retards the timing when you accelerate but are there any other effects?
2. A friend recommended that I advance my timing in order to cure my rough idle/acceleration bog. Does anyone have any recommendations on what to advance it to? My guess is 10-12 degrees btdc.
3. Should I use an inductive timing light?
4. Any general timing tips?

Thanks,
77newyorker440
 
Your '77 engine will likely have a second generation lean burn unless it was a very early production unit. The 2nd generation lean burns have a single pick up module in the distributor and no centrifical advance. The first generation had two pick up coils in the distributor with a centrifical advance. Start by checking which system you have.

Base timing in the factory manuals was 12 degrees BTC. The lean burn system sets the spark advance by utilizing a throttle position sensor to adjust advance electronically, it would not normally cause the timing to be retarded as even with no electronic advance you will still have 12 degrees from the base timing. The advantage of the lean burn was that the air/fuel ratio could be run very lean under no load conditions and at idle, approaching 18-1. A typical carb equipped engine would be running at about 14-1 in the smog era. Once your carb gets back to you, hook everything up and see if the bog is still there. You may need to adjust the base timing as modern moonshine blend fuels burn differently than the fuels of the 1970's. Thermoquad carbs do not like alcohol blends as the booze eats up the internal rubber parts and the accelerator pumps. If possible find a source of clear gas to save yourself problems down the road.

The early lean burn systems used in '77 were troublesome and have not gotten better with time. Carefully check all of the small vacuum hoses hooked to the lean burn for leaks as even small vacuum leaks cause performance issues. The early electronics were also troublesome as the electronics were not up to the vibration and heat under the hood, failed circuit pathways and burned out components were common, especially when ambient air temps were high. The electronics were also very primitive by today's standards and did not do well around any type of magnetic interference such as power transformers or large motors.

I bought a new '77 sport fury with the lean burn and went thru three lean burn computers in the year or so that I owned the car.

Dave
 
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Inductive timing light is the best. Especially a dial-back version.

Please look on the lh door shell, near the door latch mechanism, and you'll probably find a "Non-Cat" decal there in a specific color background. What that means is that the car is "Lean Burn" equipped from the factory. All factory lean burn vehicles did not have any catalytic converters under them, whereas the non-lean burn vehicles had to have them to pass USA emissions.

The reason this was possible was that as the mixture leans past 14.7 to 1, as it gets closer to 18 to 1, the emissions levels get to what they would have been with a cat converter on the engine. What might have been the motivation for the whole lean burn idea is that the cat converters cost more money than some additional electronic components did back then. GM also experimented with the Lean Burn components on ONE Oldsmobile V-8 engines, to better results than Chrysler seemed to have, but it was a very limited production option on only ONE car model, as I recall.

When Chrysler embarked on the Lean Burn adventure, they were showing their corporate engineering prowess to produce vehicles that met emissions without a cat converter. Cat Converters which produced a high amount of heat under the car, enough that cat convertered vehicles were allegedly banned from many national parks' off-road areas due to the fire dangers from the exhaust system heat (of which Chrysler had "Environmental Heat Shields" hanging under each converter and also had heat shielding attached to the outer areas of the floorpans. Later, it seemed that the apparent hazzards were not as great as they were originally perceived to be? Or was it that Chrysler products couldn't be discriminated against as Ford was also using the honeycomb monolith converters, too. GM's bead converters had a layer of internal insulation in them, by comparison.

To their credit, when I found the new Chryslers at the local dealership with ELB, I was proud of what Chrysler had produced. The engines started easier, they ran a bit quieter, and they were responsive to to being throttled-in off-idle and in gear. Lots of smiles. But Chrysler also produced its "Essential Tools" Lean Burn Computer checking "box". If "the box" said the computer was bad, then replace it. Most that had performance issues were claimed to be "bad". Which decreased diagnostic time to a few minutes rather than much longer with the mechanic's hair laying on the shop floor.

One possible "back story" to the ELB adventure is that Chrylser's corp finances were not the best at this time, so they might have cheaped-out on some component sourcing? Obviously, they had the engineering prowess to do it right and knew the future of emissions controls was in electronic controls, as their continued engineering changes progressed. But inexpensive controls or ways to do things were obviously its downfall, I suspect. As GM moved forward in their cost-conscious manner as Ford went off on their own path, back then. Each with their own pitfalls along the way, eventually. Just that if GM or Ford did something "wrong", it was generally accepted, but if Chrysler did something "wrong" (back then), it was national newspaper material, it seemed.

ELB morphed into "Electronic Spark Control" with normalized carb fuel curves, cat converters, and more electronic/TQuad "features" from about 1978 onward. Still with the ELB-looking computer hung off of the side of the air cleaner. AND with a TSB to remove the computer to the cooler vehicle interior location, if needed.

When you get the carb back from @Dana, DO download the Chrysler MasterTech programs on the ELB systen and how it works. Then also download or get a FSM for your car, which would detail how to adjust the timing and such, too. There are a few more kinks and whinks involved with the ELBs, as I recall.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
Okay, I will check those things that you all recommended. But this brung sup a question, why did my car come with a factory catalytic converter? It shouldn't have needed one but it definitely had a stock looking one when I bought it
 
If it has the "Non Cat" label on the driver's door (as mentioned), not sure. Perhaps some state vehicle emissions inspector claimed it was "made wrong at the factory" and said it needed one or else they couldn't inspect/license it? As what was on the car didn't match what their "Manual" said it should have under it?

Might verify with the VIN engine code and the FSM that it is a USA-spec ELB? Is there heat shielding directly above the cat converter and the exhaust system, on the car's under-body?

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 
In looking at www.mymopar.com . . . most of their parts/service info stops at about 1974. In searching the MasterTech library, there is a book on the ELB system in one of the late 1976 editions, which includes how to set the idle speed. Explains the operation of the system and its components.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
If it has the "Non Cat" label on the driver's door (as mentioned), not sure. Perhaps some state vehicle emissions inspector claimed it was "made wrong at the factory" and said it needed one or else they couldn't inspect/license it? As what was on the car didn't match what their "Manual" said it should have under it?

Might verify with the VIN engine code and the FSM that it is a USA-spec ELB? Is there heat shielding directly above the cat converter and the exhaust system, on the car's under-body?

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
I will check the drivers door when I can. However, I can tell you that there is a sticker in the radiator support that says catalyst in large letters. Nothing special is noted in the vin, it has engine code T (standard 440). Thank you for letting me know about the ELB info source, I will read through that and see what I can find
 
I will check the drivers door when I can. However, I can tell you that there is a sticker in the radiator support that says catalyst in large letters. Nothing special is noted in the vin, it has engine code T (standard 440). Thank you for letting me know about the ELB info source, I will read through that and see what I can find

Check the sticker for California emission. If I remember correctly, CA cars had catalytic convertors.

Dave
 
Okay, I will check the door sticker and see what I can find. I thought all Cali cars had 360s. Also mine was sold in Suffolk VA, so it should be non-emissions in theory
 
The '77 440 engine ran an ERG valve that also caused lots of problems. If you have been running blended fuel, this tends to carbon up the ERG valve to the point that it no longer closes properly. If the EGR is sticking open, this will drop the manifold vacuum and cause a dead spot when you accelerate. I would suggest finding an EGR eliminator plate and blocking off the EGR port. If a stock appearance is important, there is plate available that bolts on under the EGR valve to disable it. Or you can make one out of a piece of sheet metal.

Dave
 
The EGR block-off plates can sometimes be found in the Holley or Edelbrock intake manifold catalogs. The plate will also need a stock EGR gasket to use under the plate.

Some of the Holley and Edelbrock aluminum intakes came with a bag of pipe plugs to seal the holes with, too, but not always. Otherwise, the holes for the passages had to be ground out to work. In looking for OEM plates, you might look for a HD 3/4ton and up pickup truck application, as many of those engines did not have EGR valves, but used the same intake manifold.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 
Okay, that is a good point that I did not think off. Is the EGR in the intake? I know that I removed the flap in the exhaust manifold (I thought that was part of the EGR), when I got the headers. Is it the channel that runs between the heads?
 
Okay, that is a good point that I did not think off. Is the EGR in the intake? I know that I removed the flap in the exhaust manifold (I thought that was part of the EGR), when I got the headers. Is it the channel that runs between the heads?

It will be a round vacuum operated valve on the top of the heat riser channel that runs between the heads under the carb.. The butterfly valve you took off with the manifolds was the heat riser assembly, that diverts exhaust thru the channel while the engine is cold and disengages as the engine warms up. There is enough back pressure from the muffler(s) to source exhaust to the EGR valve. By adding headers, you have significantly changed the combustion dynamics on the engine. The better flow from the headers is causing the combustion process to become more efficient. Less spent gases in the cylinders means the factory mixture settings are probably going to be too lean, the lean burn setup can not compensate for that, you will need to reject the carb to fatten up the air/fuel ratio.

Dave
 
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Hey guys, here is an update. I do have a sticker in the driver's door, but it is totally blank. I also have a big sticker on the rad support, which I have included a picture of below. I don't know if any of the codes on there mean anything, but I cannot find anything else for it.
Also, I noticed that my Lean Burn Box says "Electronic Fuel Control System" while most that I see say "Electronic Spark Control". Does this mean anything?
Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks,
77newyorker440

20210815_163303.jpg


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20210815_163032.jpg
 
Data plate picture? The blank sticker (which used to have printing on it) probably was for the tire size/pressure, from its size.

The engine option code would probably indicate "ELB" or not? As would the engine code in the VIN?
 
After looking in the www.hamtranck-historical.com website, Library, 1977 Order Guide, "Engineering", it appears that all were ELB, but didn't mention that on the underhood decals.

The emissions decal on the core support indicates a "normal emissions" calibration. Not California or High Altitude, just Federal. In addition to the "tune-up specs" of timing and hot, base idle speeds.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
The Decal on the computer is from the 80's. So assuming that it was not a sticker swap... it looks like someone plopped an 80's 5th Ave computer on that 440.

Could explain a lot. I have no idea how a 440 would behave in response to small block programming.

I've attached a pic of what a 77 computer sticker looks like (Orange letters like pie tin. Text can vary. I've also seen "Spark Control System":

spark-control-computer-1977.jpg
 
After I bought my '80 Newport 360 2bbl, considering the alleged track record of underhood-located computers, I got a new/rem one from the Chrysler dealer. I replaced it and it seemed to run just a hair worse, so that "heat hardened" orig unit went back on. Later, a co-worker with a '78 Cordoba 400 4bbl kept having starting/running issues. One Saturday after work, I noticed that he was still in the parking lot with the hood up. He had some things to say about the computer (as he'd already replaced everything else!), so I went home and got my computer and took it to him. He plugged it in and the car didn't start. Which generated some more dialogue.

I noticed that the computer on his 400 was the same part number as the one for my 360, which I considered highly interesting. So I took my "bad" computer and went back home. Never did investigate applications past that, but the OEM-production computer is still on the car. Guess it was the B/RB cars that usually had heat-related computer issues?

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
After I bought my '80 Newport 360 2bbl, considering the alleged track record of underhood-located computers, I got a new/rem one from the Chrysler dealer. I replaced it and it seemed to run just a hair worse, so that "heat hardened" orig unit went back on. Later, a co-worker with a '78 Cordoba 400 4bbl kept having starting/running issues. One Saturday after work, I noticed that he was still in the parking lot with the hood up. He had some things to say about the computer (as he'd already replaced everything else!), so I went home and got my computer and took it to him. He plugged it in and the car didn't start. Which generated some more dialogue.

I noticed that the computer on his 400 was the same part number as the one for my 360, which I considered highly interesting. So I took my "bad" computer and went back home. Never did investigate applications past that, but the OEM-production computer is still on the car. Guess it was the B/RB cars that usually had heat-related computer issues?

Enjoy!
CBODY67

The big blocks generated more heat. They also has a good deal more vibration on the air cleaner under full throttle operation. The vibration helped to break the circuit pathways.

Dave
 
Wow, thank you for letting me know about the box, I did not know that. So, I guess now my goal is to find a new computer or switch to a standard electronic igntion. I wanted to keep the system cause it was original, but I guess it is not. I wonder if a period correct box would improve engine performance
 
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