Thermoquad replacement or buy a back up?

Moparwilks

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I’m new here & I know this has probably been discussed here more than the zapruder film but my thermoquad is epoxy repaired and running great but on borrowed time according to my recently found local carb Jedi master. I love the stock look & I guess it doesn’t hurt to have a spare. Or should I change all together? Thoughts?
 
If you go to the Edelbrock website, I believe there is are some stock replacements for your Thermoquad. It depends on where you want to go. Thermoquads were notorious for warping and cracking as the plastic got brittle over time. That having been said, if you are trying to keep the car as stock as possible, an aftermarket thermoquad might be an option.

The after market AVS is a better carb and more reliable. Do you have and intend to keep the factory lean burn system? If so, you will need to find a Lean Burn Thermoquad that is compatible with the factory electronics. If not it really does not matter.

Dave
 
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I remember techs replacing early TQ’s with Rochesters....that’s how bad the TQ’s were....or I am just jaded now after spending days trying to make them work. Buy an AVS and never look back!
 
I remember techs replacing early TQ’s with Rochesters....that’s how bad the TQ’s were....or I am just jaded now after spending days trying to make them work. Buy an AVS and never look back!

At the Chrysler dealership we had a whole bin full of "dead" ones. Factory stopped asking why we tossed them under warranty.

Dave
 
Lose the Lean Burn if it is still hooked up....it will fail sooner or later. Eddie 1406 with an electric choke will run like a champ right out of the box. TQ's are difficult to get to run right....period.
 
you guys are probably right. mines a 72. so when I ditched the 2 barrel, I bought a TQ for 72 charger or roadrunner 400cid auto & autozone back in 98. my intake came off a 76 ny & made a plate to block the egr port. even if your lucky enough to score a n.o.s mid section, were still dealing with 45 year old plastic. hate to let go but options look limited. summit TQs look nice. but all in the same boat with the plastic. guess its eddie vs avs for me right now. thanx for the info.
 
TQ's get a lot of flack, but that's due mainly to short attention spans.
I won't doubt that the phenolic resin bowls may warp on some units, this can be checked with a straight edge and gauges and/or light. Also, if you sourced yours from Autozone or another parts store, chances are high that it's been rebuilt with wrong and mismatched parts. Many so-called gearheads in the past also thought they knew better than the engineers and obsessed over changing jets and rods. Check the numbers on all the parts against what would have been a stock TQ for your year, make, and model car and start from there. You can find manuals and lots of TQ info on the internet.
I've been running my TQ for almost 4 years and 50k miles. It took a lot of work to figure it out in the beginning, research everything thoroughly, rebuild it, and adjust it, but it's been trouble-free other than some cleaning here and there. The main issue I've dealt with is the rubber accelerator pump cups binding inside the pump cylinder. After 3 or 4 times changing them I found a leather cup replacement. I blame that mainly on the fake gasoline that we have here in CA.
:mad:
 
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you guys are probably right. mines a 72. so when I ditched the 2 barrel, I bought a TQ for 72 charger or roadrunner 400cid auto & autozone back in 98. my intake came off a 76 ny & made a plate to block the egr port. even if your lucky enough to score a n.o.s mid section, were still dealing with 45 year old plastic. hate to let go but options look limited. summit TQs look nice. but all in the same boat with the plastic. guess its eddie vs avs for me right now. thanx for the info.
Let me know when you want to get rid of that piece of junk.
 
Seems that almost everything Chrysler did to innovate in the later '60s and '70s was not received well by "the masses", by observation. About the only thing which most liked was their electronic ignition system?

As for TQuads, the ONLY problem area in the 9801 I bought new was the secondary spring tension spring ends snapping off. Which made adjustment of that spring almost impossible. I like the spreadbore orientation, for the better fuel metering dynamics it should have, BUT on my '67 Newport 383, with the allegedly matched pair of 9801 and Edelbrock Torker intake, it ran good, but nothing spectacular compared to other 383 4bbls I've had. Be that as it may.

IF you like the look of the TQuad and want something new that will bolt to the existing manifold, look no further than the Holley STREET Demon. Opt for the phenolic bowl and you're set! 650 cfm, elec choke, bolts onto spreadbore or squarebore manifolds. Might need to tweak the metering rods a little, if it turns out to be a little lean. But, that's all available.

I'll admit that I wasn't around as many TQuads as some claim to have been around back then, but at the local Chrysler dealer, I didn't see that they were causing the issues that many allude to. I've bought several at swap meets (wishing I had the cars those carbs came off of!), rebuilt them and they worked fine. Now, I did see one with a cracked float bowl once, but that was the only one.

The float bowls are still around and available. After all, the rebuilders have to be getting them from somewhere!

The problem with the remans/rebuilt TQuads on the open market now is that they have much more generic applications than when new. More of a one size fits most situation, by observation. Rebuilding what you have is the best option, to me. Get a quality kit, use the thick OEM-style base gasket/insulator, and follow the directions.

The later model TQuads had lots of emissions things on them. Idle enrichment circuits, altitude compensation, and other things to fine tune the fuel curve for particular parameters. After Carter kind of disappeared in the middle 1980s, Chrysler did use Rochester QJets in their place. To me, a good carb but a poor design, at best. Too hard to work on, but an extremely flexible carb for huge differences in engine size, like from 230 to 500cid.

The problem with Lean Burns is that few people understood how they work and why they work that way. The system can be diagnosed with a volt/ohm meter, as all of the sensors operate on voltage and resistance. Chrysler had a electronic box tester, which seeming failed many computers. Funny how everybody griped about that system, but it was a precursor of what we have now on current vehicles. Again, it seemed that rather than "embrace the future", learn about it, it was easier to complain and carp about "gotta take it to the dealer . . ." instead. Even by some dealership techs. And, of course, engine grounds' integrity was very important too!

By the time 1980 model year came around, it was just "Electronic Spark Control" and few people complained about it, although it was still pretty similar to the earlier versions in operation. Those provided links have a wealth of information and history in them, especially that last one!

CBODY67
 
Seems that almost everything Chrysler did to innovate in the later '60s and '70s was not received well by "the masses", by observation. About the only thing which most liked was their electronic ignition system?

As for TQuads, the ONLY problem area in the 9801 I bought new was the secondary spring tension spring ends snapping off. Which made adjustment of that spring almost impossible. I like the spreadbore orientation, for the better fuel metering dynamics it should have, BUT on my '67 Newport 383, with the allegedly matched pair of 9801 and Edelbrock Torker intake, it ran good, but nothing spectacular compared to other 383 4bbls I've had. Be that as it may.

IF you like the look of the TQuad and want something new that will bolt to the existing manifold, look no further than the Holley STREET Demon. Opt for the phenolic bowl and you're set! 650 cfm, elec choke, bolts onto spreadbore or squarebore manifolds. Might need to tweak the metering rods a little, if it turns out to be a little lean. But, that's all available.

I'll admit that I wasn't around as many TQuads as some claim to have been around back then, but at the local Chrysler dealer, I didn't see that they were causing the issues that many allude to. I've bought several at swap meets (wishing I had the cars those carbs came off of!), rebuilt them and they worked fine. Now, I did see one with a cracked float bowl once, but that was the only one.

The float bowls are still around and available. After all, the rebuilders have to be getting them from somewhere!

The problem with the remans/rebuilt TQuads on the open market now is that they have much more generic applications than when new. More of a one size fits most situation, by observation. Rebuilding what you have is the best option, to me. Get a quality kit, use the thick OEM-style base gasket/insulator, and follow the directions.

The later model TQuads had lots of emissions things on them. Idle enrichment circuits, altitude compensation, and other things to fine tune the fuel curve for particular parameters. After Carter kind of disappeared in the middle 1980s, Chrysler did use Rochester QJets in their place. To me, a good carb but a poor design, at best. Too hard to work on, but an extremely flexible carb for huge differences in engine size, like from 230 to 500cid.

The problem with Lean Burns is that few people understood how they work and why they work that way. The system can be diagnosed with a volt/ohm meter, as all of the sensors operate on voltage and resistance. Chrysler had a electronic box tester, which seeming failed many computers. Funny how everybody griped about that system, but it was a precursor of what we have now on current vehicles. Again, it seemed that rather than "embrace the future", learn about it, it was easier to complain and carp about "gotta take it to the dealer . . ." instead. Even by some dealership techs. And, of course, engine grounds' integrity was very important too!

By the time 1980 model year came around, it was just "Electronic Spark Control" and few people complained about it, although it was still pretty similar to the earlier versions in operation. Those provided links have a wealth of information and history in them, especially that last one!

CBODY67

Very well written response and I agree with your observations.

Having just bought a 78 New Yorker, I was initially concerned with the TQ and other lean burn improvements over my 73. But a little reading and adjustment in thinking let me appreciate them both better and gave me greater understanding and respect for the flexibility of the original design.
 
Seems that almost everything Chrysler did to innovate in the later '60s and '70s was not received well by "the masses", by observation. About the only thing which most liked was their electronic ignition system?

As for TQuads, the ONLY problem area in the 9801 I bought new was the secondary spring tension spring ends snapping off. Which made adjustment of that spring almost impossible. I like the spreadbore orientation, for the better fuel metering dynamics it should have, BUT on my '67 Newport 383, with the allegedly matched pair of 9801 and Edelbrock Torker intake, it ran good, but nothing spectacular compared to other 383 4bbls I've had. Be that as it may.

IF you like the look of the TQuad and want something new that will bolt to the existing manifold, look no further than the Holley STREET Demon. Opt for the phenolic bowl and you're set! 650 cfm, elec choke, bolts onto spreadbore or squarebore manifolds. Might need to tweak the metering rods a little, if it turns out to be a little lean. But, that's all available.

I'll admit that I wasn't around as many TQuads as some claim to have been around back then, but at the local Chrysler dealer, I didn't see that they were causing the issues that many allude to. I've bought several at swap meets (wishing I had the cars those carbs came off of!), rebuilt them and they worked fine. Now, I did see one with a cracked float bowl once, but that was the only one.

The float bowls are still around and available. After all, the rebuilders have to be getting them from somewhere!

The problem with the remans/rebuilt TQuads on the open market now is that they have much more generic applications than when new. More of a one size fits most situation, by observation. Rebuilding what you have is the best option, to me. Get a quality kit, use the thick OEM-style base gasket/insulator, and follow the directions.

The later model TQuads had lots of emissions things on them. Idle enrichment circuits, altitude compensation, and other things to fine tune the fuel curve for particular parameters. After Carter kind of disappeared in the middle 1980s, Chrysler did use Rochester QJets in their place. To me, a good carb but a poor design, at best. Too hard to work on, but an extremely flexible carb for huge differences in engine size, like from 230 to 500cid.

The problem with Lean Burns is that few people understood how they work and why they work that way. The system can be diagnosed with a volt/ohm meter, as all of the sensors operate on voltage and resistance. Chrysler had a electronic box tester, which seeming failed many computers. Funny how everybody griped about that system, but it was a precursor of what we have now on current vehicles. Again, it seemed that rather than "embrace the future", learn about it, it was easier to complain and carp about "gotta take it to the dealer . . ." instead. Even by some dealership techs. And, of course, engine grounds' integrity was very important too!

By the time 1980 model year came around, it was just "Electronic Spark Control" and few people complained about it, although it was still pretty similar to the earlier versions in operation. Those provided links have a wealth of information and history in them, especially that last one!

CBODY67

I would agree that much of the technology for the lean burn system was ground breaking and the basis for much of our current PCM applications. In theory, Chrysler engineers of that era solved some very complex problems of spark and fuel management. Having good ideas is one thing, successfully implementing them is quite another. There was a major problem with the circuit boards of that era in that having the units mounted to the air cleaner assembly exposed the circuits to high heat and vibration. This proved to be a disaster as the units on police and high mileage fleet units were likely to fail in as little as 6 months of use. Circuit pathways fractured from vibration and high heat cooked many of the electronic components. Nearly all of the malfunctioning units when hooked to the diagnostic apparatus would fail because of a faulty or shorted circuit somewhere in the lean burn control unit.

Some of the units were no doubt repairable in the field, but then it became a matter of simple economics. Yes, one could take a voltmeter and start tracing circuits, but time is money. The factory was footing the bill to replace the lean burn control unit so it did not make a lot of sense to spend very much time on trying to repair a dead one. The factory was well aware by 1977 that there were major problems but after months of dragging their feet, replacement units became readily available with few questions asked. That led to the wholesale tossing of units suspected of be defective. There was also the potential for liability on repaired units because they would sometimes fail and shut the vehicle down unexpectedly. Could be a big problem for police cruisers traveling at speed.

You are correct that by the early 1980's electronic spark control was mostly perfected and that most of the warranty issues with the units went away. Improved circuitry, and better mounting locations mitigated the problems. My 2 cents worth.

Dave
 
At least I pre date lean burn by five years or so. At least there many options I would rather fix my headliner next spring, this spring it's my front bench seat. Hope I get two more shmmers from the TQ
 
At least I pre date lean burn by five years or so. At least there many options I would rather fix my headliner next spring, this spring it's my front bench seat. Hope I get two more shmmers from the TQ

The early variant TQ , as long as it is not cracked or warped can be rebuilt and should continue to function adequately. It was the later ones with all emission related stuff that caused most of the problems. They were difficult to get right and sometimes took hours of tinkering and re-adjusting. That is why a lot of techs who worked on them are not fond of the TQ. A word to the wise, a lot of TQ carbs were toasted by stuck heat risers, so be sure yours is working properly.

Dave
 
My '80 Newport spent its life in "deepest, darkest, West Texas", until it came east with a used car wholesaler friend. It had a carb issue (BBD 2bbl) that didn't have enough idle fuel flow. NO issues with the computer, though.

Chrysler did a TSB to relocate the computer to inside the passenger compartment. This was in an era when all computers had to be in 65 degree F environments. So they scoffed at Chrysler's "wisdom" in putting them in a hot engine environment. Many had a 1/4" thick piece of insulation on the bottom side.

After hearing all of the issues with the computers, I got a reman one from Chrysler. The original one worked better, so I put it back on.

I'd known about the Chrysler "box" to test the computers. It wasn't until we had a Volare in the shop that I bought a Chilton book and it went through how to do the diagnosis with the VOM. That tended to demystify the whole situation, to me. Simple voltages and resistance.

Now, I know the LA motors run cooler than a B/RB engine, so that might have been the reason the orig computer still worked.

There was one issue I had that took quite a while to diagnose. I could be sitting in the drive-thru and I'd notice the idle get a hair more quiver in it. When I'd throttle into it to move forward, definite power loss. I finally got it back to my shop. Barely maintained 45mph in 2nd gear on freeway overpasses and used way too much fuel. When I got it in the shop, turned it off, and then re-started, it ran fine. Turning it off "cleared the computer". Turned out to be a poor terminal connection on #1 plug wire. When I pulled the wire's boot off of the spark plug, the terminal stayed on the plug. Eased the plug boot back on the wire, exposing the end of the wire, put the terminal back on and firmly crimped it, eased the boot back down over it. End of that problem.

Apparently, when the engine 'shook" just right at idle, the bad connection sent a voltage spike back to the computer, some how, that put it in "limp in mode".

When I heard that first Lean Burn run at the dealership, when new, the engines sounded much quieter and energetic than the prior year's engine. I was impressed. Then the simple fact that when the mixture was at about 16.0 AFR, NOx emissions decreased to nearly zero, which meant they were "Non-Catalyst" (with the appropriate sticker on the lh door body). With all of the buzz about cat-equipped cars catching pastures and such on fire, I felt this was progress.

The observed problem with the Lean Burns took place after the cars got a good bit of age on them. When the system was condemned summarily as it was "different". In reality, all it took to replace it was a carb from an earlier (same model) engine and the Mopar Perf electronic ignition kit. Using generic auto supply parts just didn't do it. End result was that many really nice New Yorkers were junked because the people trying to work on them didn't know what they were looking at or how to work on it--period. The TQuad was "foreign" to these tinkerers. The Lean Burn was another blasted computer car, so it was "junk". And nobody really knew where to look for information, or tried, either. Another Chrysler engineering innovation that gave them a bad reputation.

And in the process of trying to wire around the system, more problems were caused than were fixed, by observation.

In looking at one of the links to the '72 TQuad information, I'd forgotten that the earlier ones were "solid fuel" and the later ones were not. And THAT change might have been a contributing factor to some of the TQuad's service issues, separate and apart from the float bowl issues.

IF GM had pushed their Rochester RamJet fuel injection to replace all of their 4bbl carbs, phased in from '58 to '62 on their engines, it would have made Chrysler and Ford adapt systems to their engines, too. The issue with the Bendix ElectroJector system Chrysler used back then, had RF energy issues from outside sources. Possibly some better-shielded electronics would have fixed those issues? But there were some things which had to be learned in the process that weren't figured out for many years later. Accelerating the learning curve would have been neat, but then what sold cars back then was "multi-colors, chrome, and styling", although some good Mopar power helped. People bought what they could see (and the neighbors could also see!!), bigger engines, and whitewall tires. Off them an advanced multi-million dollar automatic trans (Buick Triple-Turbine Flight-Pitch DynaFlow) for $56.00 extra, and they'd pass on it.

One advantage that GM had was that any new engineering things could be shifted to Oldsmobile to introduce and use for a year. Then it went to other GM carlines for their use. They had other carlines that were selling well to cover any sales decreases which Olds might have suffered. Chrysler adapted these things to each of their carlines, so the risk was greater if something flopped (as the Chrysler Air Flow).

Ah well . . . time goes on.
CBODY67
 
IMHO, if you are happy with the TQ, start looking around for some carbs that are about the same vintage. With a little patience, you might come up with one that will have a good float bowl that you can use to repair your existing carb.

The TQ has had a bad rap because of the problems with the plastic float bowl. Sometimes it's a matter of not rebuilding it correctly and then there are just some "bad" carbs that no one can get right. Personally, I've had them on a few cars (including my present 70 300) and I've always been very happy with their performance.

As suggested, a new AVS might just be the way to go if the TQ just doesn't work out. If you are paying someone to do this work... You might want to research that as a more affordable alternative.

Another carb link. Thermoquad Teardown and Reassembly How To
 
It’s not warped, a piece in the center section had Brocken off causing the gas to leak out of everywhere possible. One of the sides broke where the 2 brass thread (forgot the name of them sits in the center section. I’d go for the demon if I had an extra $300 laying around. Spanking new & you still get the look a bit.
 
It’s not warped, a piece in the center section had Broken off causing the gas to leak out of everywhere possible. One of the sides broke where the 2 brass thread (forgot the name of them sits in the center section. I’d go for the demon if I had an extra $300 laying around. Spanking new & you still get the look a bit.

The TQ does not sound like it's rebuildable?
I guess you have a 72 Newport, maybe with a 400?
I realize the Lean Burn stuff does not apply.
If there's no money for a new carb, I'm on the side of those who recommend rebuilding an AVS, or even an AFB, which might be simpler.
I expect either might require some adjustments to accelerator cable and kickdown linkage, but I converted a 73 New Yorker 440 to AFB with good results. It can be done. My TQ ran hugely rich, with clouds of black smoke when I hit the accelerator hard. I never had any such problem with the AFB, although at 600-625 cfm, it was too small for the 440. I'd go a little larger, even with a 400.
Best of luck! Ben
 
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