Timing and vacuum questions - 440 TNT

challenger

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I feel like my car is lacking in the acceleration department. It runs very well otherwise. It has an Edelbrock 1406 600 CFM Performer carburetor and a Mopar performance distributor. The vacuum advance is hooked up and functions. It may advance the distributor with a little more vacuum than it would if it was "stock" but I do remember fiddling with the allen screw quite a while ago so that me account for the higher vacuum before distributor timing movement. I'm thinking the dist starts advancing after the vacuum advance sees about 15 lbs but I would need to verify this if it is important.

The FSM states that the timing should be set at 2-1/2 degrees +- 2-1/2 * BTDC. With my 1970 300 this gives me about 5-6 lbs of vacuum. I did some surfing and it seems that everyone sets timing at 15* and more. Should I try increasing the base timing to get higher idle vacuum? Also should the mechanical advance be all in at 2500 RPM or higgher for such a heavy vehicle? When should mechanical advance start increasing the timing?
Many thanks - HC
 
Firstly, you have a carb that is rated at 600 CFM which is a bit on the small side for your 300 which probably has a 440 with the TNT package. The AVS that came on those engines was rated at something like 750 CFM. If you had the 350 HP Holley equipped engine, then the 600 CFM Eddy is appropriate, but it will probably be jetted on the lean side for a 440 engine, and that could be the source of your pre-ignition issues.

The vacuum advance functions with an increase in vacuum pressure until it reaches full deployment. The Allen screw you referenced increases spring tension against the vacuum diaphragm and delays full advance, or it can also reduce spring tension against the diaphragm and speed up full vacuum advance. I would suggest that you might want to find a shop with a distributor machine and have them re-set the vacuum diaphragm to factory specs. They can also check the mechanical advance to be sure it is functioning properly.

The mechanical advance deploys with increased engine RPMs using centrifugal force against the distributor weights to achieve full advance along a preset smooth curve. This can be altered by using different weight springs or by changing the size of the weights on the advance mechanism. It should start advancing the mechanical timing at about 750-800 RPMs. For a stock application, you do need to mess with the mechanical advance settings.

Dave
 
I also have a 440 with a 1406 edelbrock. It has been running well and on points . I now have a a slight miss under load. Not trying to hyjack the thread but which port is your vacum advance hooked up too challenger?
I found out before storage last season mine is hooked to the wrong port. When looking at the carb after opening the the hood mine is hooked up the the left port which is constant vacuum and the right one is a metered vacuum I guess. In the edelbrock manual online it says it is the right port for the vacuum advance. If I am wrong be correct me. The basic timing +mechanical+vacuum advance of these old cars is rather mystical to me. I am used to basic timing +computer controlled advance with knock sensor baro /boost sensor /throttle position sensor and O2 sensor and reading it out on a SnapOn computer. Late 1980's tech.
I am going to start over with the 440 and refresh the 1406 too. I am determined to master this lost art [at least to me] of mechanical everything.
Correct me again if wrong but I thought too the 600cfm 1406 eddy carb was too small but in my research and advice from guys here that if you are not going over 6000 rpms it is not a restriction. I went on the Eddy site and read that it will become a retriction a tad over 6000 rpms on a 440. Being that I rarely hit 5000 I thought it would be ok to keep the 1406 and the atomization at lower rpms would be better anyway than a bigger carb. If I wanked it over 6000 regularly then maybe consider a 750 cfm? Anyway I look forward to see how your situation challenger turns out.
 
Small carb, on stock cam 440, in big car with highway gear, should not be an issue. It should have really good response and cruising manners.
 
Yes my 440 is a stock cam iron head low compression engine. Can you explain the two vacuum ports and how does the vacuum port Eddy says to use differ from the straight vacuum port?
 
I also have a 440 with a 1406 edelbrock. It has been running well and on points . I now have a a slight miss under load. Not trying to hyjack the thread but which port is your vacum advance hooked up too challenger?
I found out before storage last season mine is hooked to the wrong port. When looking at the carb after opening the the hood mine is hooked up the the left port which is constant vacuum and the right one is a metered vacuum I guess. In the edelbrock manual online it says it is the right port for the vacuum advance. If I am wrong be correct me. The basic timing +mechanical+vacuum advance of these old cars is rather mystical to me. I am used to basic timing +computer controlled advance with knock sensor baro /boost sensor /throttle position sensor and O2 sensor and reading it out on a SnapOn computer. Late 1980's tech.
I am going to start over with the 440 and refresh the 1406 too. I am determined to master this lost art [at least to me] of mechanical everything.
Correct me again if wrong but I thought too the 600cfm 1406 eddy carb was too small but in my research and advice from guys here that if you are not going over 6000 rpms it is not a restriction. I went on the Eddy site and read that it will become a retriction a tad over 6000 rpms on a 440. Being that I rarely hit 5000 I thought it would be ok to keep the 1406 and the atomization at lower rpms would be better anyway than a bigger carb. If I wanked it over 6000 regularly then maybe consider a 750 cfm? Anyway I look forward to see how your situation challenger turns out.

The eddy carb has two vacuum ports. The right one uses throttle plate vacuum and is appropriate for the vacuum advance, throttle plate vacuum increases with engine RPMs and increased air flow to move the vacuum advance forward as the the engine speed increases. The left port is constant manifold vacuum and is inappropriate for the vacuum advance. The 600 CFM carb is appropriate for a 350 HP 440 engine. This carb is marketed and designed as an economy carb for small block and lower displacement big block engines. To get more performance out of it the primary jets should be replaced with larger units and the metering rods should be raised up to fatten up the mixture of the secondaries.

Dave

Dave
 
Thank you Dave. I got the metering/jet kit for 1406. I'll do that after I fix the vacuum timing mess.
 
The other term for the port that runs the vacuum advance is "ported vacuum". When at base idle, there might be a slight amount of vacuum there, which will increase once the throttle is opened a bit, like driving away from a stop sign. The OTHER vacuum port is "manifold vacuum" and, as mentioned, NOT where you put the vacuum advance line on these motors.

IF the distributor is a genuine Mopar Perf electronic ignition distributor (NOT an OEM/production unit), not the stock unit (which had points), then it's already got the "fast" advance springs and weights in it. No need to mess with them at all. Just set the base timing at either the stock setting OR starting at that setting, advance the setting a few degrees at a time until you get "trace rattle" on acceleration for the fuel you're using. Then back off until it's quiet again. IF you get clatter at WOT, decrease the timing until THAT noise disappears!

If you have a "dial" timing light, you can see it all happen in real time as you measure the ignition total advance with the dial on the timing light. Quite neat and not terribly expensive to purchase.

Seems like the factory vacuum advance needs 9" Hg to start, or thereabouts. Full in by 15" Hg or so? Key thing is that the slight amount of vacuum at the ported vac port is not enough to make the vacuum advance work at hot base idle. Vacuum advance is important for highway cruise mpg performance and off-idle throttle response.

To move a heavier car, you need lower rpm TORQUE, not 5000rpm horsepower. That's why the 600cfm carb works well. On a stock motor, it's probably a little more than it really needs, all things considered. An extra 25-50cfm past that wouldn't be easily noticed in top end performance.

As for the metering specs (jets/rods/etc.), I never have looked at the 1406 and compared it to the AFBs that Chrysler used OEM back then. Probably need to sooner or later, just for general principles. Considering the "generic" nature of the Edelbrocks, they are probably a hair lean for a bigger motor than for a "target 350 Chev", but on the other hand, the original Holley 1850 was spec'd for ALL Ford V-8s in '58, 352 to 430cid with the same jetting. So those things might not be quite as critical as some might perceive, regarding engine size.

If, after a longer highway cruise, you pull a few spark plugs out and the ceramic is still basically "clean", then the jetting is in the ballpark. If it's chalky white, too lean. If it's more darker fluffy charcoal, far too rich.

Hopefully, mine and Davea's comments might address y'alls questions.

CBODY67
 
Agreed, waaaay to retarded on timing.
Around 12-14 BTDC at idle is in the ballpark. You should really time it to highest manifold vacuum.
You can put the vacuum advance to the manifold vacuum. In some instances it may be beneficial (cheats). Drawbacks are possible inconsistent idle or surge at idle with power brake, and a long deceleration rate. Ported will kill vacuum instantly returning advance to all mechanical and stable.
Add some timing and enjoy.
 
There should be no ported vac, at idle. If there is, the throttle blades are open to far. If it won't idle, the timing is probably too retarded. Funny how they all work together. It's easy to get things out of whack.
 
Great stuff guys. Thanks to all. I also did some reading like "vacuum advance explained for idiots" on the web and that helped too on how it all works together.
For example I had no idea there was so much total advance at part throttle.
 
Vac adv to manifold or ported . . . . When I had put some miles on my then-new '77 Camaro, I started to pay more attention to how things were tuned. I was intrigued that the vac advance was run by manifold vac, rather than ported. Base timing came out at 8degrees BTDC rather than the stated 4 degrees BTDC.

With the timing and idle speed to spec, when I pulled the vac advance hose off the canister, the idle rpm went to like 450rpm. Normal idle rpm was about 650rpm.

I tried to figure out the reason for the change in vac advance vac source, as if the additional timing with the idle mixture adjusted w/o it hooked up, made it effectively leaner, but why?

On some of my other cars, which were spec'd for ported vacuum, I tried changing the vac source to manifold and it just didn't work too well. Idle rpm increased and then the speed screw had to be adjusted, and then off-idle transition was crappy (as the throttle plates were closed too much for the transition port to work. So, I put it back like it was designed to be run. Then things worked "right" again.

I've not found that "no" vacuum is in the ported vac port at base idle. There's usually a slight vac, but not nearly enough to start the vac advance to working. I know there should be "none" there, but there usually is.

In '77, Chevy used the manifold vac source for the vac advance on "Federal" cars, but not "CA" cars, or something like that. In about '85, after the 305 pickups got some miles on them, they'd get "doggy", but a tune-up wouldn't fix it. Tech Assistance had a "vacuum harness" to use for that issue. Running the vac advance off of the manifold source, as soon as you throttled into the engine from idle, it would fall flat, as the manifold vacuum decreased (so the ignition advance went away!) and the rpm was too low for the centrifugal mechanical advance to start. The "fix" was a vacuum harness which had two vacuum delay valves, in parallel, turned backwards so they'd hold vacuum and delay it's decrease from the vac advance canister. End result, the vac advance was maintained until the rpm got high enough for the mechanical advance to start happening, covering the flat spot in response. The pickups went from "doggy" to "time smokers" with that one change.

In some of the old aftermarket service manuals which some in the service station industry had (Exxon, that I know of) in the early '70s, they had a timing spec for base timing and also one for "total advance at 2500rpm", which was base timing + vacuum advance + mechanical advance. A dwell tack and a "dial" timing light were all that was needed to check this spec. Surprising to me (at the time) was that it usually was about 50-55 degrees BTDC. Base timing + about 1/2 of total mechanical advance + all of the vac advance . . . with the engine in "P" and "no load". I'd never seen that spec anywhere, but in there. Consider that that amount of timing would be close to what "cruise" timing specs might be, but as soon as you throttled into the motor, much of the vacuum advance would go away. Closer to WOT, the less the vac advance would be. That larger amount of advance also worked as the mixture density was much less (needing more time to get fired-off) than at WOT.

My point is that some might be able to run manifold vac for their vac advance (most probably with a limited mechanical advance amount and an increased base timing to get close to the 38 degrees total), but others with a more stock advance curve might not. The other thing is exhaust emissions. "Retarded" base timing helps decrease HC emissions, so the "late" base timing is compensated for by the quick-acting ported vac advance to get the needed power and response off-idle so the engine responds nicely. That's the comparison, to me, of why the ported vac source works on most cars whose carburetors were designed for it. It all relates to the ultimate relationship of the primary throttle plates to the transition port in the carb primary throttle body.

CBODY67
 
I am pretty sure that the distributor will dictate if it the vacuum advance goes to ported or unported (manifold vacuum-full time vacuum). Anyway I am hooked to the ported vacuum . This is the fitting on the passenger side (I wasn't sure if the "left" and "right" mentioned in this thread was from inside the car/driver's seat or not) and it is slightly higher (above the primary blades) than the unported manifold vacuum.
One screw up I made was using this port to measure the vacuum at idle. I need to take the idle vacuum at the manifold vacuum port. In addition I will set the base timing by using the highest engine RPM and then backing down 20 RPM after topping out. If the RPM goes up more than 40 RPM while adjusting the timing I have read that I should then adjust the idle screw on the carburetor. NOT the idle mixture screws - the idle "stop" screw.
As far as the choice in carburetor I went with what was recommended by other forums (before I discovered forcbodies) and by the guys at Summit. I was also told that the CFM rating is a little low for a performance type application but was a good choice for a cruiser. FWIW I have a buddy that has an original 440 AFB carburetor and I will procure this unit for testing purposes. I did change the jets, springs and rods in the carburetor but I completely forget what they currently are. I also changed the springs in the distributor to the heavier one or ones but, again, I forget what they are currently. Maybe I need to start writing **** down. Or get a tattoo???
Thanks for the help and sorry I haven't been more timely in my responses . I use my cell phone almost 100% of the time and, for some lame reason, either the chrome browser or the SwiftKey keyboard I use makes it almost impossible to type in this forum. I'm sure it is one or the other things in the phone BUT it only happens in the forcbodiesonly.com/forums.
 
Timing and idle rpm . . . on my '66 Newport 383 2bbl, the base timing is 12.5 degrees BTDC. With it set there and the carb idle speed optimized, I can change the idle rpm just by increasing or decreasing the base timing. In a linear fashion, but I never ran it more than 15 degrees BTDC. This is with the stock "closed chamber" cylinder heads.

When I got my '70 Monaco 383 4bbl, the base timing on that engine is 5 degrees BTDC. With the carb optimized, I can move the distributor to change the base timing significantly and the base idle speed barely changes. This is with the 906 stock heads (open chamber).

First thing to do is get the engine warmed up (run about 20 minutes or so, or drive it that long). You can shut it off momentarily to hook up the timing light and tachometer, if it doesn't have an inductive hookup. Then start it back up and let it stabilize a minute or so. Set the timing to factory spec, whatever that might be.

Second is to set and verify the hot base idle speed at factory spec.

Third is to verify the idle mixture and that the two needles are adjusted the same number of turns "out" from being lightly seated (you can check this when the engine is off). From there, turn the mixture screw in or out, noting which way increases or decreases the idle rpm . . one at a time. Aim for the max rpm with each screw individually and collectively. Readjust the idle speed down, if needed. From this point, screw each screw "in" until you get a 20rpm drop, and then turn it back to where it was (max rpm), for each side.

Some like to use a vac gauge to set the mixture with, but every time I'd try that, my results didn't always seem accurate for what I wanted. And if you get excited about trying to achieve some "max vac" level that's allegedly attainable, you might not hit it. I just like the precision of the dwell tach in this area.

Tweek it a few times to see if you can get a little "tighter" in the adjustments, but don't be dismayed if it's already as good as it can be.

For my final check, I'd nail the parking brake and foot brake, gently put it in "D", pat the throttle to see if response is good and if the idle quality is smooth and stable. From there, with the parking brake fully engaged, I'd get out and check the pulses out of the exhaust pipe (works best on a single exh car) to see if the flow was smooth or pulsating. If it pulsates, then tweak the idle speed up about 1/8th turn and recheck. Just when the flow smooths out will be your best hot idle speed, in gear. Then put it in "P" and see where the idle speed goes to. Then put it back in "D" and see how smoothly it goes into gear. If it's a little too abrupt, you might take the base idle speed down a smidge and see how it acts.

If desired, with each speed change you might re-check the idle mixture settings, for good measure. If you haven't don't this before on this car, spending some time getting things to act the best can give you a baseline should something change later on.

So, the final adjustment can take some back-and-forth tweaking to get to the best "sweet spot" in those idle adjustments. There might be a little "shake" at idle in gear, but that's fine as long as the off-idle response is positive and eager. AND, you'll know that YOU did it yourself. Once you do it and get the knack for it, it doesn't take as long as the first time tends to.

Back when we didn't have the amount of "stuff" in our gasoline, I'd put my hand into the exhaust flow for a second, then remove my hand and smell where the exhaust had flowed over it. IF I smelled too many hydrocarbons, the mixture was a little rich, so it needed to be leaned a bit. Goal was "no" or "very slight smell". But usually, after I was done, it was basically "no smell" . . . and that was good. Not sure if it works with current fuels? I"ve been driving my modern cars too much, of late, to have had to deal with a carburetor.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
Ok so I am going with ported vacuum instead of manifold vacuum on my low compression 440. Going to bump up basic timing from 4 to 12-13 btdc with both vacuum ports blocked off and vacuum advance disconnected. Adjust idle speed and needles. Idle speed in park at 650 rpms? Hook up vacuum advance to the ported vacuum on my Eddy 1406 and take her for a spin?? Thumbs up or down?
 
Thanks Polara...I needed that!!
 
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