Voyager 1 and 2 still alive!!!! 38,000 mph!

Fratzog

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Preventing the next major extinction event is a noble objective and worth the expense in my book. Here is an article about an interesting NASA mission to the outer asteroid belt.
https://phys.org/news/2021-08-nasa-mission-trojan-asteroids.html
Asteroid_Belt.jpg
 

Fratzog

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While the $10 billion price tag is mind boggling, if they pull this launch and deployment off successfully, the pay off will be huge. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that all goes well on December 22nd.
 

amazinblue82

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"propeller head space nerds" (speaking about myself) are looking forward to Webb's show. :)

starting a year or so from now I read. seeing all the way back to 250K years after the big kaboom.

I just learned they gotta park that baby at "LaGrange 2" to stop the Sun from beating the crap outta it. All that assumes they can "unfold it" when it gets there.

Great science and engineering so far .. the real fun starts when its up and running.

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Mike66Chryslers

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"propeller head space nerds" (speaking about myself) are looking forward to Webb's show. :)

starting a year or so from now I read. seeing all the way back to 250K years after the big kaboom.

I just learned they gotta park that baby at "LaGrange 2" to stop the Sun from beating the crap outta it. All that assumes they can "unfold it" when it gets there.

Great science and engineering so far .. the real fun starts when its up and running.

View attachment 499211
The interesting points about this to me are: Unlike Hubble which is a satellite orbiting the earth, Webb will orbit the sun like the planets do. "LaGrange2" is one of the places that it can have a stable orbit, and the earth will eclipse it to shield it from the sun to keep it cool and eliminate interference to the sensitive instruments. However, Webb orbits around the actual L2 point enough so it's not completely eclipsed by the earth, to get some sunlight on the solar panels which power it. Somehow it's able to orbit around the L2 point even though there's nothing actually there for it to orbit around, i.e. no massive object with gravity to attract it into an orbit.
 

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The interesting points about this to me are: Unlike Hubble which is a satellite orbiting the earth, Webb will orbit the sun like the planets do. "LaGrange2" is one of the places that it can have a stable orbit, and the earth will eclipse it to shield it from the sun to keep it cool and eliminate interference to the sensitive instruments. However, Webb orbits around the actual L2 point enough so it's not completely eclipsed by the earth, to get some sunlight on the solar panels which power it. Somehow it's able to orbit around the L2 point even though there's nothing actually there for it to orbit around, i.e. no massive object with gravity to attract it into an orbit.
It would be attracted by the sun, to remain in orbit at L2.
 

Mike66Chryslers

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It would be attracted by the sun, to remain in orbit at L2.
I know that, you missed my point. The moon orbits around the earth because it's attracted to the earth's gravity. Both are orbiting the sun. Webb will orbit AROUND the actual L2 point, not sit right on it. There's nothing massive at L2 to attract it, to cause it to orbit around L2.
 

amazinblue82

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The interesting points about this to me are: Unlike Hubble which is a satellite orbiting the earth, Webb will orbit the sun like the planets do. "LaGrange2" is one of the places that it can have a stable orbit, and the earth will eclipse it to shield it from the sun to keep it cool and eliminate interference to the sensitive instruments. However, Webb orbits around the actual L2 point enough so it's not completely eclipsed by the earth, to get some sunlight on the solar panels which power it. Somehow it's able to orbit around the L2 point even though there's nothing actually there for it to orbit around, i.e. no massive object with gravity to attract it into an orbit.
thats interesting ... as you say. hmmm.

if its orbiting at L2, then what "mass" is bending space to create that orbit for it?

i was sure it was "parked"... but that cant be fully correct cuz it has to have a "hot" side to catch the rays....

one of you smart folks help a feller (me) out :)
 

3175375

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thats interesting ... as you say. hmmm.

if its orbiting at L2, then what "mass" is bending space to create that orbit for it?

i was sure it was "parked"... but that cant be fully correct cuz it has to have a "hot" side to catch the rays....

one of you smart folks help a feller (me) out :)
I believe that it’s orbiting the sun at L2.
 

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From nasa:
"Some Technical Details: It is easy for an object (like a spacecraft) at one of these five points to stay in place relative to the other two bodies (e.g., the Sun and the Earth). In fact, L4 and L5 are stable in that objects there will orbit L4 and L5 with no assistance. Some small asteroids are known to be orbiting the Sun-Earth L4 and L5 points. However, L1, L2, and L3 are metastable so objects around these points slowly drift away into their own orbits around the Sun unless they maintain their positions, for example by using small periodic rocket thrust. This is why L1, L2, and L3 don't "collect" objects like L4 and L5 do."

Although it's not clear to me how it will maintain this orbit, might have something to do with the moon's orbit.
 

SPF Required

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This spacecraft will create new levels of science for our next generations. I am excited see its successful launch and deployment. My daughter loves math and I think this will be another example of how she can use math in unique and interesting ways.

as for the orbit at L2… your conversation captured my interest. I wasn’t even aware of these Lagrange points until you mentioned it above, so I went to the web to learn more, so I am no expert here. Based on my read and some info posted about Webb’s orbit, it sounds like the L2 point where there is gravitational ‘balance’ is quite small and probably pretty delicate. I would venture to guess that perhaps our moon can cause slight movements in the precise location of that L2 point (similar to how it effects our tides here on earth). The article I read mentioned it will be placed slightly off of the true balance point of L2. This makes me think that perhaps being ‘off balance’ just a little along with the minor fluctuations the moon might introduce allows it the ability to orbit L2? All just guessing on my part, but I like this kind of thinking and it gave me some interesting stuff to read about Webb I wouldn’t have otherwise looked up on my own …

looking forward to the data Webb is going to bring us.
 

amazinblue82

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This spacecraft will create new levels of science for our next generations. I am excited see its successful launch and deployment. My daughter loves math and I think this will be another example of how she can use math in unique and interesting ways.

as for the orbit at L2… your conversation captured my interest. I wasn’t even aware of these Lagrange points until you mentioned it above, so I went to the web to learn more, so I am no expert here. Based on my read and some info posted about Webb’s orbit, it sounds like the L2 point where there is gravitational ‘balance’ is quite small and probably pretty delicate. I would venture to guess that perhaps our moon can cause slight movements in the precise location of that L2 point (similar to how it effects our tides here on earth). The article I read mentioned it will be placed slightly off of the true balance point of L2. This makes me think that perhaps being ‘off balance’ just a little along with the minor fluctuations the moon might introduce allows it the ability to orbit L2? All just guessing on my part, but I like this kind of thinking and it gave me some interesting stuff to read about Webb I wouldn’t have otherwise looked up on my own …

looking forward to the data Webb is going to bring us.

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makes sense ...the masses acting on are Sun, Earth, and Moon. The thing that curves the space IS the sun. It must have a fuel source/propulsion to make it "orbit"-- else as was pointed out it wont come out of the earth's shadow to sunbathe.

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whatever kind of "orbit" (between zero and 90 degrees vs earth orbit of sun) Webb will be in, its gotta come in and out of Earth's shadow to power its systems.

cool stuff.
 

Fratzog

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That description with the above diagram is interesting and I'm going to need to do some homework to try to grasp it. I guess this is why they say rocket science is hard.
 

Turboomni

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Quick stats on Parker probe.

Next pass of the sun.

Parker Solar Probe/Max speed
430,000 mph

This pass was 364621 mph which =

How fast does the Parker Solar Probe travel per second?

The Parker Solar Probe reached a top speed of 101 miles (163 kilometers) per second during its 10th close solar flyby on Sunday, which translates to a dizzying 364,621 mph (586,000 kph), NASA officials said.Nov 23, 2021

How close is the Parker Probe's velocity to light speed?

It will approach to within 9.86 solar radii (6.9 million km or 4.3 million miles) from the center of the Sun, and by 2025 will travel, at closest approach, as fast as 690,000 km/h (430,000 mph), or 0.064% the speed of light.
 

amazinblue82

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Quick stats on Parker probe.

Next pass of the sun.

Parker Solar Probe/Max speed
430,000 mph

This pass was 364621 mph which =

How fast does the Parker Solar Probe travel per second?

The Parker Solar Probe reached a top speed of 101 miles (163 kilometers) per second during its 10th close solar flyby on Sunday, which translates to a dizzying 364,621 mph (586,000 kph), NASA officials said.Nov 23, 2021

How close is the Parker Probe's velocity to light speed?

It will approach to within 9.86 solar radii (6.9 million km or 4.3 million miles) from the center of the Sun, and by 2025 will travel, at closest approach, as fast as 690,000 km/h (430,000 mph), or 0.064% the speed of light.

back of the napkin/farmers math, that means "c" is like 650 Million miles per hour. unimaginably fast, yet there is light just arriving here today that left an origin point 14 billion years ago.

yes, traveling at 650,000,000 mph for 14,000,000,000 years. and thats only the observable universe --- if your head wasnt already spinning like mine was. :)
 

70bigblockdodge

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I don't know if this right but I'll throw it out there for discussion.
I'm going to say the L points seem like gravity Eddy currents ( sort of my minds picture in layman's terms). Created by earth and moon interaction with each other and both tied on by the sun. I'm sure the math isn't right but it's my dumb it down thoughts.
 

amazinblue82

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I don't know if this right but I'll throw it out there for discussion.
I'm going to say the L points seem like gravity Eddy currents ( sort of my minds picture in layman's terms). Created by earth and moon interaction with each other and both tied on by the sun. I'm sure the math isn't right but it's my dumb it down thoughts.

untitled13a-png.png


your layman's question is quite profound. I am a math nerd .. but this math is way beyond me however.

lot going on in that diagram .. much more tortured math and physis presented in TWO dimensions, with some infinities mixed in.

The lines are depictions of gravitational equipotential. yes, all those massive objects, sitting "in" gravity wells (the "deepest" well under the yellow "sun" object, much more massive that the blue dot),

oh, the moon is NOT drawn there either - it must have some effect on the math but perhaps not as much as I am thinking, are interacting with one another.

the other "gravity well" caused by the Earth (imagine a bowling ball on a stretchy fabric .. that's shape in that setup is analogous to a massive celestial object deforming "spacetime"), causing things to "fall toward the well (but not go in IF they have sufficient momentum to go into orbit (is the earth

Here's a thing as pedestrian as I could find to help me understand what LaGrange points are - using Webb as a teaching tool
What is a Lagrange Point? | NASA Solar System Exploration

Here's the only thing I could understand 20% of on equipotential gravity lines.
Gravitational Potential | Digestible Notes

here's brain-freeze math on equipotential gravity lines resulting from Sun and Earth doing their "space dance" for the past 4 Billion years.

Dunno what LaGrange did to account for the moon. Plus the Earths orbit is NOT perfectly elliptical .. meaning the distance between Earth and Sun varies as Earth completes one orbit. that affects the lines too.

Boil all that down, I think "eddy currents" is a good way imagine all that math. I defer to you, Fratzog, and other folks who wanna "dive in into the well" on this one :)
 

Fratzog

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While the Voyagers will be putting along for infinity, scientists back home are busy trying to figure out ways to blow by them at FTL speeds. We've posted here before about the theoretical potential of Warp Drives and now it looks like NASA has stumbled onto something that will require more investigation. This video summarizes the work nicely.

 
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