What engine is in this thing?

detmatt

Old Man with a Hat
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
26,783
Reaction score
23,771
In 1967 nearly all 440 engines were 350 horse power. There was a high performance option for the Dodge Charger and some police cruisers, but that was not offered as far as I know in the Chrysler line in '67. If you can find the build sheet, you might be able to determine what the special order engine option on the engine was. Could be a lot of different things.

Dave
Also the GTX and Coronet R/T.
 

69CoronetRT

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
3,117
Location
Iowa
But, but, but...

The 67 service manual has known, and confusing, mistakes in the decode.
The parts book is correct.
D785D454-BF69-4076-A80D-7C9BE986B5D2.jpeg
 

69CoronetRT

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
3,117
Location
Iowa
I'd like to know what I actually have in my '67 New Yorker other than a 440. I've attached the fender tag and the VIN number. According to my 1967 service manual I have a "Special Order 8". How can I figure out what the HP and torque ratings are? The carb tag and base number is 4966S which I'm finding is a Carter AVS (Adjustable Vacuum Secondaries) I saw somewhere this is a 750 cfm carb. Is that correct? View attachment 180274 View attachment 180275 View attachment 180276 View attachment 180277 View attachment 180278

The date code on the carb tag of 2515 indicates 251st day of 1975. What are the characters to the left of 4966 on the carb base?
 

Davea Lux

Old Man with a Hat
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2017
Messages
8,919
Reaction score
8,075
Location
Cornelius Or
An AVS in 1975? I don't think so. All Thermoquads by then.

Kevin


You are right, but they were still making new replacements for the older cars and the date codes did reflect that. As the older cars came in for repair a lot of the time a newer production carb might be installed if the old carb was not worth rebuilding.

Dave
 

69CoronetRT

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
3,117
Location
Iowa
I'd like to know what I actually have in my '67 New Yorker other than a 440. I've attached the fender tag and the VIN number. According to my 1967 service manual I have a "Special Order 8". How can I figure out what the HP and torque ratings are? The carb tag and base number is 4966S which I'm finding is a Carter AVS (Adjustable Vacuum Secondaries) I saw somewhere this is a 750 cfm carb. Is that correct?

Does your BS show 51 under CARBURETOR?

Cbody_code439_Carb.jpg
 

shooter65

Senior Member
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2013
Messages
2,635
Reaction score
3,794
Location
.
First, This isn't the original carb for your car. The 4966 doesn't seem to be offered on any 67 440 according to the parts book.
upload_2018-4-18_6-34-18.png


The two or three digits to the left of the 4966S stamp are a date code which will be a letter and number. My guess is that it will be J5 for September 1975, this would match the Date Code on the tag.

upload_2018-4-18_6-22-19.png


The tag doesn't seem to match the BS.

upload_2018-4-18_6-23-51.png


Top number is carb number 4966S
Date Code beneath 2515, as stated, 251st day of 1975
31 is last two digits of the Mopar Part number

Long story short, the carb isn't going to tell you anything about your engine, you'll have to check the engine stamping.
 

70bigblockdodge

Old Man with a Hat
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
13,072
Reaction score
10,418
Location
Avonmore Pa.
If it had a stock factory Holley, your definitely better off with the AVS.

Also a 67 only difference between cylinder heads, 1.60 exhaust valve compared to HP heads with 1.74
 

CBODY67

Old Man with a Hat
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
7,291
Reaction score
4,449
First, I'm not sure why the engine description would be "Special Order 8" if the 440/350 is the standard engine in a '67 New Yorker.

The first year for the Carter AVS was '68, not '67. A '67 New Yorker 440/350 would have had a Holley 4160 4bbl on it. Many Chrysler dealers did swap out the Carter carbs for the Holleys, as the local one did. The Holleys, back then, generally needed a rebuild with each tune-up due to leaking cork gaskets (that was what the local service manager said, although I hadn't heard or read of that anywhere else at the time). So, that would explain the non-stock, but OEM carb. The 440/375 in '67 would probably have been an AFB, but I'd have to look to make sure (same as on the GTX, but with a different number, very possibly). In any event, not an AVS.

The local, small town TX dealer would NOT order a car that he knew would have a Holley carb on it. On the ones that did, if there were any carb issues, he and his old-line Chrysler service manager suggested changing to a close-model year Carter AFB (and the end of the need for yearly rebuilds) for the particular car. He also didn't like "hot rods", especially with Holleys on them, so he had ONE '69 Road Runner, as a result. Holleys were considered "trouble" and he didn't want that for his customers.

The 440/375 was available in that car, but would have been like the gold car pictured above, with the special dual snorkel air cleaner/pie plate ID, factory dual exhausts, and probably the "GTX" exhaust manifolds. In trying to document any car, other than the carb number (which is incorrect for this car, from the factory), there would be the block casting numbers/date, with the distributor stamp number also in that mix. Generally, things which might not usually be changed.

In a few cases, the VIN engine designation can be incorrect. I wasn't aware of Galen's note on the '67, but my initial-production '66 Newport Town Sedan 383-2 has a VIN designating a 413 V-8, which didn't happen in '66 with a 2bbl motor. So, some things we normally perceived to be "cast" are not, it seems. Not sure why these errors might exist in such an important area. Years ago, there was a late '60s Road Runner that was "red", but all of the documentation said it was "white". Many people, including me, looked at the car in all areas to see if it had been repainted. It was the orig owner that got it from a local dealership, yet it was red when the data plate and broadcast sheet showed it was white. "Factory error"?

As for not seeing some engine combinations in certain cars/model years? This was at the discretion of the ordering dealership. If they didn't perceive that a "hot rod" 440/375 would appeal to their particular customer demographic, possibly being a little out of character for a Chrysler customer (?), then they didn't order any or ordered few of them. In many cases, many customers would not have missed that additional power but would have missed any fuel economy loss from the 3.23 (4bbl) axle ratio rather than the normal New Yorker 2.76 ratio. Have to understand what's important to the customer you're trying to sell to.

CBODY67
 
Last edited:

69CoronetRT

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
3,117
Location
Iowa
First, I'm not sure why the engine description would be "Special Order 8" if the 440/350 is the standard engine in a '67 New Yorker.
As stated, the service manual has a confusing printing mistake.

The first year for the Carter AVS was '68, not '67. A '67 New Yorker 440/350 would have had a Holley 4160 4bbl on it. Parts book shows Carter when car had CAP. Is that an error?

Many Chrysler dealers did swap out the Carter carbs for the Holleys, as the local one did. The Holleys, back then, generally needed a rebuild with each tune-up due to leaking cork gaskets (that was what the local service manager said, although I hadn't heard or read of that anywhere else at the time). So, that would explain the non-stock, but OEM carb. The 440/375 in '67 would probably have been an AFB, but I'd have to look to make sure (same as on the GTX, but with a different number, very possibly). In any event, not an AVS.

The local, small town TX dealer would NOT order a car that he knew would have a Holley carb on it. On the ones that did, if there were any carb issues, he and his old-line Chrysler service manager suggested changing to a close-model year Carter AFB (and the end of the need for yearly rebuilds) for the particular car. He also didn't like "hot rods", especially with Holleys on them, so he had ONE '69 Road Runner, as a result. Holleys were considered "trouble" and he didn't want that for his customers.

The 440/375 was available in that car, but would have been like the gold car pictured above, with the special dual snorkel air cleaner/pie plate ID, factory dual exhausts, and probably the "GTX" exhaust manifolds. Will B body manifolds work in a C body?

In trying to document any car, other than the carb number (which is incorrect for this car, from the factory), there would be the block casting numbers/date, with the distributor stamp number also in that mix. Generally, things which might not usually be changed.

In a few cases, the VIN engine designation can be incorrect. I wasn't aware of Galen's note on the '67, but my initial-production '66 Newport Town Sedan 383-2 has a VIN designating a 413 V-8, which didn't happen in '66 with a 2bbl motor. 66 engine VIN assignments are different than later years. The actual engine was contingent on body/model. Most VIN decoders do not take this into account.

So, some things we normally perceived to be "cast" are not, it seems. Not sure why these errors might exist in such an important area. Years ago, there was a late '60s Road Runner that was "red", but all of the documentation said it was "white". Many people, including me, looked at the car in all areas to see if it had been repainted. It was the orig owner that got it from a local dealership, yet it was red when the data plate and broadcast sheet showed it was white. "Factory error"?

As for not seeing some engine combinations in certain cars/model years? This was at the discretion of the ordering dealership. If they didn't perceive that a "hot rod" 440/375 would appeal to their particular customer demographic, possibly being a little out of character for a Chrysler customer (?), then they didn't order any or ordered few of them. In many cases, many customers would not have missed that additional power but would have missed any fuel economy loss from the 3.23 (4bbl) axle ratio rather than the normal New Yorker 2.76 ratio. Have to understand what's important to the customer you're trying to sell to.

CBODY67

Expand for comments.
 

detmatt

Old Man with a Hat
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
26,783
Reaction score
23,771
I’ve got a part # for a RH HP manifold for C-body but the book neglects to point one out for the LH.
 

CBODY67

Old Man with a Hat
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
7,291
Reaction score
4,449
Expand for comments.

Back in that '67 timeframe, I was keeping up with things as much as any other high school car kid did. I knew that CA was a special situation, but I also knew of one '67 New Yorker that had the Holley 4160 on it, rather than the normal AFB. It was a "Federal" car as we saw very few, if any, CA-spec CAP cars in TX back then. The CAP cars had enough obvious differences that we knew what they were.

As for the 440/375 being a "GTX" engine, that's what it's primary identifying model was, as it looked the same in every place it generally was optional in. Details like exhaust manifold flanges and such, between B and C cars was not even considered, back then, unlike in more recent times as people desire to upgrade and need to know about those differences. Exhaust manifolds were not a part of the things considered, unless somebody got interested enough to look. (just looked at '67s -- C body manifolds are unique in the HP manifolds, but the lh sides are different between 383s and 440s, on the HP side of things).

My '66 Newport Town Sedan was built in the first month or so of production, as it was one of the first three '66s the local dealer received. Therefore, when I found the incorrect VIN code on the VIN plate, for the installed 383 2bbl, but it indicated a '65 413, I knew something was "up". The local service manager had no idea why it was that way. I initially figured it was just a stamping error as the motor was otherwise a 383.

Back then, we looked at en gines as what they appeared to be. All of the hoopla about 'VIN Codes" is a more recent issue. We knew what a "GTX" motor looked like, as the later "Road Runner/Super Bee 383" looked like, so that was how we looked at things. We knew what carbs were on them, generally, plus a few other identifiers. In those earlier times (until car values started to be hinged upon VIN codes and such), about the only people who were concerned with such things were the Corvette enthusiasts. I might know a few VIN engine codes, but it's not one of my priorities as at this point in time, finding a pristine, unmolested vehicle/engine combination is more unlikely than in prior times, back when those cars were just "used cars". IF the car does still have everything (equipment-wise) that matches the model and VIN, that's great. At this point in time, "rebuildable condition" is a more important issue, although having the "correct" stuff makes it better. Be that as it may.

In some respects, we're talking about the same cars, just differently-oriented terminology.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
Top