Timed or Ported Vacuum advance

Mohawkmike

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I have heard both sides of that question and have found that my 66 New Yorker 440 idles much better with manifold vacuum instead of timed any pros or cons? I am running a 1405 edlebrock and not sure if the car has a mild cam or not I have 19 vacuum
 
As your carburetor is a "multi-fit" aftermarket carb, it can probably work with ported or manifold supply to the vac advance can. Although the engine was originally designed for ported vacuum.

What vac level does it produce on ported vacuum? Any off-idle hesitations or flat-spots with it on manifold vacuum? These things relate to the position of the primary throttle blades to the transition ports in the carb body, which need to be maintained for flawless off-idle response. Any idea of what the real cam specs might be, as "a little cam" can mean lots of different things OR even have less duration than a factory cam.

As a 440 engine has enough vacuum under heavier part-throttle situations, manifold vac can do fine. As under such conditions, there should above 9" Hg at either vac port. On smaller engines (5.0L or thereabouts) with a slow advance curve, once that manifold vac drops, so does the vac advance level, which can certainly be felt (when running the vac advance on manifold). On the smaller engines, manifold vac can "pump up" the advance below cruising rpms and make them feel good. But until the mechanical advance gets to where it needs to be, heavier-throttle power will suffer.

In the earlier-to-mid 1980s, Chevy 305 pickups had such a situation. As long as the engines were newer, things were fine, but as they got near needing their first set of spark plugs (45K miles), they'd come in with a "low power" complaint which new plugs did not fix. GM finally came out with a TSB and a "vacuum trap" (two Ford-style vac delay valves turned around backwards, in parallel) that fixed it. Keeping the vac advance can "charged" until engine rpm could increase for more mechanical advance.

I know the "feel" you like as my '77 Camaro 305 came with manifold vac for the vac advance OEM. One afternoon, I got the timing light, wrench, and vac hose to put it back to ported (as in prior years). With the OEM carb, it should have worked, but didn't. So I put it back like it came.

Here's what you might do. Get a vac advance can which is adjustable and adjust the starting point for vac advance at 5" Hg, from the 9"Hg where the OEM can should/usually start. Then get some lighter springs for the distributor, such at all advance is in at 2500-3000rpm. Might need a light and heavier spring to get things started quicker, but taper off that last bit of total advance. Then run the vac advance from the ported vac port.

Yes, the idle speed screw will need to be open a bit more, but this can mean a bit more velocity in the venturis for a bit better fuel atomization. Which can mean a cleaner emissions situation, whether that might matter to you or not. It can also mean the ported vac port will function sooner rather than later moving from the idle position. Lots of little side issues that sometimes pop up.

9" Hg? That's normally the lowest point the OEM vac advance specs list for "Vacuum Advance Starts" in the FSM distributor advance specs. 5" Hg? That's when the full-power mixture should come in in the carburetor calibrations at WOT.

I normally advocate for factory settings, but I know some people like to "do things better", which is fine. Yet for vac advance and stuff, I still like the OEM orientations, no matter what they might be. I also know that using manifold vac can be a tuning tool to compensate for "too much cam", to get a better idle quality rather than drilling the primary throttle plates. Just like finding two automatic transmission builders that "have the same tricks they use", whatever works.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
I have heard both sides of that question and have found that my 66 New Yorker 440 idles much better with manifold vacuum instead of timed any pros or cons? I am running a 1405 edlebrock and not sure if the car has a mild cam or not I have 19 vacuum
I agree with keeping ported advance. Manifold advance needlessly advances timing during idle. Ported advance reacts to throttle position.
 
I stay with ported. Find the initial timing your engine wants with vacuum gauge on manifold vacuum and a tail back timing light.
Great info on Tall Johns fun shop.
 
I stay with ported. Find the initial timing your engine wants with vacuum gauge on manifold vacuum and a tail back timing light.
Great info on Tall Johns fun shop.

I have timed it and adjusted the carb with a vacuum gauge to the highest reading and when I test drive it the motor pings something awful
 
If the motor pings, back the timing back and see where it ends up. Remember you are trying to make a high compression motor run on what was sub-regular octane gas (when the car was built). You HAVE to take that into consideration.

CBODY67
 
I have timed it and adjusted the carb with a vacuum gauge to the highest reading and when I test drive it the motor pings something awful


Like you said, the vacuum gauge can tell us "what" the motor is doing, but it can't "make" the motor do anything.
My pre 1972 high compression 440 and 413 engines give best mpg and drivability (off idle and part throttle response) and best full throttle power with ported advance.
I set the initial advance down low @ about 5 btdc, then reduce (as needed for pinging) the available ported vacuum advance at the can, then delay as needed (for pinging) the centrifugal advance, then "increase" the available centrifugal advance to about 30 degrees (as tolerated) and arrive at about 35 degrees total @3500.
All because of the very poor 93 gas that is available here. Winter to spring season changeover is the worst leftover blend here, it's the pits I tell you.
Idle speed is set at about 700 rpm in gear with the a/c on so that the radiator and a/c condenser get plenty of air flow in repeated traffic stop light conditions. Idle air ratio is set just a touch rich to cover up the hole when the choke opens early, and the engine is still a little cold. So, the hot idle is a touch richer than necessary for a hot engine, but you wouldn't know it to look at it and it doesn't affect idle speed, idle quality or driving performance at all. But the nose knows.
And the vacuum gauge says whatever it says.
 
Like you said, the vacuum gauge can tell us "what" the motor is doing, but it can't "make" the motor do anything.
My pre 1972 high compression 440 and 413 engines give best mpg and drivability (off idle and part throttle response) and best full throttle power with ported advance.
I set the initial advance down low @ about 5 btdc, then reduce (as needed for pinging) the available ported vacuum advance at the can, then delay as needed (for pinging) the centrifugal advance, then "increase" the available centrifugal advance to about 30 degrees (as tolerated) and arrive at about 35 degrees total @3500.
All because of the very poor 93 gas that is available here. Winter to spring season changeover is the worst leftover blend here, it's the pits I tell you.
Idle speed is set at about 700 rpm in gear with the a/c on so that the radiator and a/c condenser get plenty of air flow in repeated traffic stop light conditions. Idle air ratio is set just a touch rich to cover up the hole when the choke opens early, and the engine is still a little cold. So, the hot idle is a touch richer than necessary for a hot engine, but you wouldn't know it to look at it and it doesn't affect idle speed, idle quality or driving performance at all. But the nose knows.
And the vacuum gauge says whatever it says.
What you have pointed out is how you compensated for the fuels in your area by tuning the advance curve to allow for such. Additionally the need for LESS advance to decrease pinging on acceleration. Whereas all of the "drag racing"-oriented advance curves are about MORE advance SOONER and a bit more power from that. These distinctions ARE important with modern, lower Research Octane fuels!

I also understand your orientations on the idle mixture and idle speed changes from OEM stock specs. My experiences in the Texas summers, in the later 1960s, as supported by our service station guy who also drove mid-60s Fury IIIs with factory a/c, was that a Chrysler cooling system if in good working condition did not have any over-heat issues as similar GM vehicles could. So hot idle speeds were set to 550 in D with the a/c running and no issues as to cooling performance for the engine or the factory a/c, even in the slightly thinner air of Lubbock, TX compared to DFW.

For the difference in how a 10.0CR 383's distributor calibration differs from a 9.2CR 383 2bbl, look at the 1965 distributor specs. In 1965, the new-for-1966 256/260 "standard cam" for the 4bbls had not yet appeared, so the '65 383 4bbl still used the 252/252 cam as the 2bbl did and had single exhaust. Which can make that comparison valid as to CR. This was when normal Regular-grade fuel was usually 93-95 Research Octane and Premiums were 98-100 Research Octane. In modern definitions, that would relate to 89-91 Pump Octane for Regular and 94-96 Pump Octane for Super Unleaded. At sea level or thereabouts, as octane numbers decrease as altitude increases, due to the thinner atmosphere of the higher altitudes.

Personally, I'm not sure the slightly higher idle speed or richer idle mixtures help to the degree they are perceived to help. Considering the higher idle speed would not offer better cooling to a significant degree as it also loads the engine harder against the torque converter, which to me, might generate more heat in the cooling system as the richer mixture seeks to cool things down.

On our '66 Newport 2bbl, I also played around with the way the air cleaner snorkel was pointed. Pointing it out of the hot air from the radiator (and any "ram air" affects) did not help hot idle characteristics or power, so I put it back "factory", with the orientation that the hotter air would result in better atomization of the fuel for better overall results. FWIW

In our younger (generally) years, we can tend to get the idea that "Those factory engineers didn't know how to get the best power from their engines, BUT I DO" as they follow a magazine article on how to allegedly do that. Back then, that meant lighter springs to get the centrifugal advance "all in" by 2500 rpm (rather than 4500rpm) and more initial timing such that a full 38-40 degrees BTDC was reached. No body really mentioned the additional need of higher-octane fuels to do that, though. The magazine article usually included some sort of chassis dyno power figures to support what they had done, implying that anybody could do the same. In some cases, the article advocated for "no vac advance" and "full mechanical advance only, but with a quicker advance curve". Sounded good and made a bit more power on the chassis dyno, but NOBODY mentioned a loss in cruise fuel economy. The quicker curve could offer a bit better throttle response in normal driving (compared to the "emimssions-oriented" retarded/delayed advance curves), so all was well. All that mattered was what happened when the throttle was opened. I know that one clue the vac advance on our '66 Newport's vac advance "had gone" was a mpg drop to 10mpg from a normal 14-15mpg, with no significant loss in drivability.

The reason I keep mentioning the advance curve on the '66 Newport 383 2bbl is that it hits the generalized "number" at to total advance with the spec 12.5 degrees BTDC base timing. Vac and mechanical seem to compliment each other, too. Only thing might be that it could be a bit quicker than all-in by 4500rpm (which is the approximate horsepower peak). From NEW, that car did not like Regular fuel like it should have. It clattered. The fix? We used Premium fuel in it from then on. Which later allowed me to advance the base timing to 15 degrees BTDC with no problems. It also ran better on Phillips 66 Flite-Fuel premium gas, which had a pump octane of 95.5 (101 Research) in 1974. The same fuel in DFW was rated at 95 Pump Octane and didn't offer any performance advantages down here.

Sorry for the length. Just my experiences and observations over about 50 years of fun.
CBODY67
 
almost sounds like you put MP springs in there. They advance fast!
 
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