WTH!

[Big_John]

The bulkhead disconnect shows the two large wires, being black, going into slots #16 and #28.

The FSM shows #16 with a dark blue fusible link. The dark blue can look black. I highlighted the circuit in yellow.

I still think the #28 is a dark blue fusible link like that shown on the 65 amp call out. Again, dark blue can look like black. The only difference is if it's a fusible link or not. It runs to the same terminal on the starter relay. I drew a circle around that.

But, don't get real hung up on the colors. I've seen occasional mistakes in FSM before and a ton of mistakes in other wiring diagrams not in the FSM. It's more important if the wire is good or not.

 

[tbm3fan]

The brown wire goes to the starter. 8-129, fig 14. The FSM I have shows this should be brown.

Ok, I see that but then why is there continuity between that wire and slot #28?

I don't have that 16DBL dark blue line at my relay as can be seen in the photos. If I took off the lines I added then you would see just one large red wire at that position. In fact both the 8-129 and the 8-148 show two wires from there despite me only having one. I'm going to have to cut open the wire loom to see what is in there. 8-129 shows a junction splice right where you drew your yellow line. Is this where the dark wire to slot #28 originates from as it isn't the relay?

What happens if the relay is toast? Do I have a 65 amp alternator? I don't have the secret code for the numbers.

 

[Big_John]

Ok, I see that but then why is there continuity between that wire and slot #28?

Continuity is kind of tough to analyze sometimes. Most likely this is some sort of feedback through the starter solenoid coil or relay coil. You really can only do continuity through a disconnected wire. I should have said mentioned that.

This is where voltage drop tests are more conclusive.

I don't have that 16DBL dark blue line at my relay as can be seen in the photos. If I took off the lines I added then you would see just one large red wire at that position. In fact both the 8-129 and the 8-148 show two wires from there despite me only having one. I'm going to have to cut open the wire loom to see what is in there. 8-129 shows a junction splice right where you drew your yellow line. Is this where the dark wire to slot #28 originates from as it isn't the relay?

OK, I understand now. This is tough trying to communicate through the forum sometimes. If we were sitting at the kitchen table with a printout of the wiring diagrams and some markers, we could get through this easier. I'm trying to do the same here with my marked up pics. Some of it is so I understand and we are on the same page.

So....Let's assume that we have the "65" amp alternator circuit in 8-148. In running through the circuit, it looks like there's two "red" wires as you say. One is obvious and goes to the battery through a fusible link. I've highlighted that one in pink.

The other goes to a couple splices (1 and 3) and goes to the alternator and goes to #9, #13, and #16 on the firewall. That is in red.

Again, you may have to not think color but think about the routing. What does the green fusible link run to?

What happens if the relay is toast? Do I have a 65 amp alternator? I don't have the secret code for the numbers.

The broadcast sheet shows a 60 amp alternator. That would make some sense, but the wiring diagram references a 65 amp alternator. I looked in the FSM and I don't see a 65 amp alternator in the specs. It's probably safe to assume that "65" is another FSM anomaly and it really references the 60 amp alternator. As far as the relay, I think there's a real good chance it's bad. It would not cause the issue you are having, but you have had to bypass it with a remote starter switch. That kind of points to a bad relay.

 

[Big_John]

Let's get past that and start looking at where these circuits go. First, since most of the questioning is about disconnect #28, let's see where that circuit goes. Look to me like that's an accessory circuit that ends in a plug. It may or may not be used, but it's not causing our problem.

 

[Big_John]

Let's look at #9 and #13.

The circuit comes in on #9 (in green)

Goes onto the next page and connects to the ammeter. Goes from the ammeter (in blue)....

and back down to #13 and out through the firewall.

 

[Big_John]

One left...

#16 comes in (purple) and goes up to a splice and if you trace from the splice (yellow), it goes to a connector...

... and that connector goes to the ignition switch.

This is a known trouble spot. I've never seen a car that had this connector that wasn't at least discolored. Usually, it's melted or burnt.

So... slide under the steering column and take a look. You may have to take some plastic off and/or maybe the a/c duct. There should be a flat white connector with a bunch of wires and most likely, a burnt spot.

I'll bet that's your problem. Everything flows through that wire. My guess at a scenario is the draw from your air compressor just finished it off.

The preferred repair is to clip the burnt red wire on both sides of the connector and add a small jumper with butt connectors. This is the way I've fixed them.

 

[commando1]

Big John, you have the patience of Job.

 

[Big_John]

Big John, you have the patience of Job.

Well... I'm a little tied to the house right now. Mrs. Big John had back surgery last week and I need to be here. All is good, but I can't leave her alone just yet. I figure I might as well help someone (or confuse the hell out of them) if I'm here. Call it my therapy for boredom.

 

[tbm3fan]

The red wire under the dash in the white connector was easy to see. I initially saw the white connector but didn't see a red wire. Then I noticed there was a blank area where there was also a burned spot. Looking just above I saw the 12 gauge red wire halves joined together by your standard twist connector. So probably not the issue but I did take it apart and am about to put a bare butt connector on, solder around the perimeter some and then shrink some black shrink wrap to protect. So first that...

 

[tbm3fan]

Ok, got that done. That was a PIA given one end being a short piece up under the dash. Nothing like getting solder dropping onto your hand. Of course, that didn't change anything other than making a more secure connection. However, I went back into the engine compartment and looked at another fusible link. When I disconnected it I saw one end was melted inside. The plastic connector was toast. So I cut it out and put new connectors on with a new link. Hook up the battery and open the door. The dome light goes on. What I found with the key in the off, on, run, and start position I get nothing. However, with the key in ACC I get an oil dash light, I can get headlights and I can get the radio. As to what wire I fixed I have no idea since it seems almost impossible to follow the wiring diagrams.

 

[Big_John]

What I found with the key in the off, on, run, and start position I get nothing. However, with the key in ACC I get an oil dash light, I can get headlights and I can get the radio. As to what wire I fixed I have no idea since it seems almost impossible to follow the wiring diagrams.

You should be able to get headlights with the key off. Since you are getting them with the key in the accessory position, I still think (obviously) you have a break in the wring somewhere and you are getting a "back feed" from the accessory circuit.

Where this is... I don't know. I would look at the other fusible links, like that green one, first.

One other thing I would check is that white connector under the dash. I know you were just under there, but did you disconnect it and look at the other connections?

You are getting frustrated with the diagrams and I understand that. So far, everything you've done has been positive. You've secured the connection under the dash and if there was a twist connector, it was just a matter of time before it failed. You've cleaned corrosion on the disconnect terminals... again, they were a problem waiting to happen. You've replaced two bad fusible links. This is all good stuff and it all may add up to the solution.

 

[tbm3fan]

You should be able to get headlights with the key off. Since you are getting them with the key in the accessory position, I still think (obviously) you have a break in the wring somewhere and you are getting a "back feed" from the accessory circuit.

I thought that to and went back but there are no headlights with the key in the "off" position.

Where this is... I don't know. I would look at the other fusible links, like that green one, first.

I wonder if it is the fusible link in the top diagram of the 65 amp alternator down in the lower right corner? Nothing on the link that says what size so I assumed since it connected a 10 gauge wire it should be a 14 gauge fusible. The green one is part of the MAD bypass from alternator to relay.

One other thing I would check is that white connector under the dash. I know you were just under there, but did you disconnect it and look at the other connections?

I did take it apart and it was black only around where the red wire went in. All other pins were clean and shiny.

You are getting frustrated with the diagrams and I understand that. So far, everything you've done has been positive. You've secured the connection under the dash and if there was a twist connector, it was just a matter of time before it failed. You've cleaned corrosion on the disconnect terminals... again, they were a problem waiting to happen. You've replaced two bad fusible links. This is all good stuff and it all may add up to the solution.

I don't see many other fusibles left?

 

[Big_John]

The green one is part of the MAD bypass from alternator to relay.

I would still check that fusible link.

I think it's time to get serious about doing some voltage drop tests. You should be able to get the test probe into the back of the connector. One probe to the battery+ and one to the back of #16. That's where I would start. From there, you'll have to go under the dash and start doing the same to the circuit going to and coming from the ignition switch.

Someplace, somewhere, you have a bad wire or connection.

 

[tbm3fan]

Someplace, somewhere, you have a bad wire or connection.

I figured out that much just from those two bad fusible links. The last one showed melted plastic inside the housing. Now when I went to start the car and the starter turned over the first time and then didn't turn over the second time I thought I saw a whiff of smoke. However, it was almost 8:00 pm, twilight, I'm in the car, the hood is closed, and it was fleeting despite moving as fast as I could to get out and open the hood. When I did I saw nothing yet the location of this fuse connector matches where the whiff of smoke came from. Now inside the car no such thing occurred and I never got the hint that wire was burning either.

I'll try #16, or at least what I think is 16, since even the manual is a little confusing on the bulkhead connectors. I have four separate towers of connectors and the manual shows only three. So I'll check the slots with the two largest wires one high and easy and one low and harder to see. Low and hard to see is probably #16 as fate would have it.

 

[Big_John]

I'll try #16, or at least what I think is 16, since even the manual is a little confusing on the bulkhead connectors. I have four separate towers of connectors and the manual shows only three. So I'll check the slots with the two largest wires one high and easy and one low and harder to see. Low and hard to see is probably #16 as fate would have it.

Yes, it's always the low one... Never fails.

The instrument panel diagram shows all 4 "towers". The one not shown in the engine compartment diagram is the front end lights.

The only issue is this is looking at it from the interior side of the firewall.

 

[cantflip]

I'm going to chime in here a little. The best thing your multi meter does is voltage testing, specifically voltage drop testing.


What I am suggesting, and what I believe Big_John is asking for are some voltage drop tests results. To make this as simple as I can. Put one voltmeter lead on the B+ and turn on the ignition, put the other lead on the + terminal of whatever components you suspect are not working. Write down these voltage numbers, and details are better. It is critical the connectors are still connected when doing this, so you may need a paper clip to use as a "back probe" to get into the connection in places... be gentile,don't damage the connectors. You may need to wiggle the back probe around a bit to get contact.

High numbers, close to battery volts, indicate failed circuits that need cleaned or repaired.

To voltage drop the starter circuits, you will need the alligator clips that came with the leads (or a helper) so you can make the connections to the starter relay/solenoid/motor while cranking for several seconds so you can get a stable voltage reading. If you want to practice this test in action on a working car:

Negative voltage drop

Battery - for one lead, engine block for the other...

While cranking watch the voltage reading on the meter... the more volts, the more your negative circuit is hurting your starter performance (I wouldn't let .5v worry me too much)

If you think the number is high, clean the negative battery terminal and retest... it should get a lower number.

 

[tbm3fan]

Ok, finished with the Sable for the moment. Definitely heard a scraping sound after the car idled in drive for a minute. Damn noise seemed to come from everywhere but the scraping sound and stethoscope says under timing cover to me as I know everything from the camshaft/heads up are in perfect condition.

First question regarding the new battery cable vs. the old one with a aftermarket battery terminal where you screw in the wires. The new cable uses a a2 gauge fusible cable from the pigtail at the starter up to the smaller post on the relay. My original, except for the one terminal, does not use a fusible so are there complications here or am I Ok? I think so since both are 12 gauge.

Oh, looking at the starter got me to notice a leaking freeze plug at the back over the starter. Great! At least this one is accessible.

 

[Big_John]

First question regarding the new battery cable vs. the old one with a aftermarket battery terminal where you screw in the wires. The new cable uses a a2 gauge fusible cable from the pigtail at the starter up to the smaller post on the relay. My original, except for the one terminal, does not use a fusible so are there complications here or am I Ok? I think so since both are 12 gauge.

Is this the cable that you posted on the first page?

There shouldn't be a fusible link on the 12 gauge wire. It doesn't look like there is.

 

[tbm3fan]

No, this is the entire new + battery cable from battery all the way down to the starter. As you know the starter has dual terminals with one for the 6 gauge battery cable and then the smaller one to attach the 12 gauge brown line that goes to the "S" post on the relay. The OEM has 12 gauge brown while the new replacement has a 12 gauge gray fusible.

However, dome light on when door opened. Headlights now work with no key in ignition. ACC works as before. Headlights also work with key in "ON" position but didn't last night. Remember my headlights are fed directly from the battery as I use a relay now but last night they weren't working outside of ACC. Yet no dash "oil" light when at "ON" or "RUN". Car still only cranks using remote. Onward to #16.

 

[tbm3fan]

Just ran across another melted connector internally. This one is literally glued together. Large black wire in and out so it doesn't look like a link. Rest of wire disappears into the loom. I'm thinking this wire is off the alternator and heading to the ammeter??? Think it is the R6D-8BX on page 8-129. Short stubs to work with here. Still trying to pry it apart but have just have to crush it.