I've got a 440 in my 1977 Yorker. Anyone have any helpful tips?

[Payton Mitchell]

I'm looking to pep up my 440. I have a aluminum edelbrock intake all ready and a hei distributor . Would like to do a cam swap and throw a fitech throttle body on also and of course headers . Dose anyone have any helpful tips ?

 

[CBODY67]

TBI fuel injection is a fancier way to meter fuel than a carb. The advantages are feedback control, for possible slight increase in fuel economy, cold drivability, and throttle response. The cam is already more than the prior years' standard cam, and not that far off in duration and lift than the Road Runner cam. The exhaust manifolds are already the "larger cross-section" design. In other words, you can spend a bunch more money and not have much to show for it, performance-wise.

I might wonder about the HEI distributor change? The original GM HEI was designed to fire a plug gap of .100", but the condition of the plug wires gets critical past about .080" gap. The larger cap diameter helps prevent cross-fire at those larger gaps, too. BUT they do have their issues. The bushing in the cap that connects the coil to the rotor can wear and cook the cap. The module has to have the dielectric silicone under it so the module's heat is transferred to the advance plate for cooling. Otherwise, it'll cook and the engine stops. Also, the coil has to have a ground strap (a length of wire or a stamped metal item) on it or the coil will later stop working. You can run the plug gap to about .045" reliably, though, but no power to be gained past about that gap width. The nice thing is that it only takes ONE power wire to make it work and has an integral tach terminal on the cap.

Best thing would be a full dual exhaust/dual cat converters, as the 400 and 440 HP police cars had, starting in about 1975. Finding one in a salvage yard, wrecked and abused, might yield the exhaust system and hangers. Use the '72 Imperial muffler . . . C-body size and same restriction as the Street Hemi muffler.

With 2.71 gears in the back, usually, with a THREE speed automatic (as good as it might be) it's not going to leap from a dead stop, but still credible. But at 35mph, when it downshifts into "1" from "3", that's the fun part, even with the low compression pistons. Only way to address THAT "launch" issue would be adapting a GM THM700 or 6L90E trans (3.09 low gear, 4.50 low gear, respectively) in the place of the existing TorqueFlite (adapters to mate it to the Chrysler V-8 plus rear mounting adapters, plus driveshaft length changes. Only thing is that with those upper gears being OD ratios, that 2.71 axle ratio would have to become more like 3.21 or 3.55.

General drive-around peppiness can be helped by a slight readjustment of the kickdown rod at the carb. The easiest way is to get a small black plastic wire tie and loop it over the bottom of the slotted arm at the carb, so it's at the back and bottom of the slot. This slight additional pre-load will make the part-throttle upshifts be a few mph higher than stock. Less throttle for more acceleration. It'll also make the part-throttle kickdown a little easier to get. The desire is to get a min-throttle upshift right at 30mph with the 2.71 axle ratio. Therefore, when it shifts into high gear, the converter is more "solid" and the engine has more rpm that it's above base idle in rpm. Better response and a happier engine . . . rather than the engine lugging against the converter after the trans upshifted too soon for its liking (at factory settings).

I did the readjust procedure on our '66 Newport 40+ years ago. Adding two more turns of pre-load into the adjustment from stock. NO issues with durability, but better performance on less throttle input. Same with my '70 Monaco 383 "N". And we played with the adjustment on the '72 Newport to get the 2-3 upshift road speed raised a bit. On my '80 Newport 360, though, they'd moved the adjustment place to under the firewall, so the black wire tie was used and it worked great. The factory adjustments were usually set a little low, on ALL Chrysler products as emissions were checked on "grams/mile" rather than the prior "ppm" measure. Lower rpms, lower grams of emissions, I suspect.

As an alternative to the money to do any of the electronic EFI systems, you might consider the Street Demon carb. The T-Quad look-alike that'll bolt to a normal Holley flange manifold. $400 is better than $2000 (approx.) for the EFI and getting it fitted everywhere on the car (gas tank to carb), unless you're planning on using one of the underhood reservoir/pumps rather than the rear-mounted inline electric pump (in the install kit).

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[Davea Lux]

CBODY67 is giving you some excellent advice. Going to dual exhaust should give the most bang for the buck. If you are going to use wrecking yard cats, be sure they have not been holed and are not plugged up. Cats get plugged from running behind an engine that burns oil or has a coolant leak. A lot of shade tree mechanics will take off the cat and drive a piece of pipe down the center of the cat to relieve the back pressure or remove the reagent material altogether from inside the cat. This leaves the cat non functional which can be a problem if you live someplace where you are required to have a DEQ inspection.

Installing an EFI system on a car that was not designed for it is a major pain in the butt Going to an aftermarket AVS or Street Demon carb is probably a better choice. The HEI ignition will not offer much in the way of increased performance as the factory Mopar system was excellent.

At the point you are ready to rebuild the engine, there is a lot that could be done to bring up performance provided you are not having to worry about emissions testing.
Higher compression pistons and the early style heads would be a good place to start as well as installing a steel crankshaft. Things to keep in mind for a later date.

Dave

 

[cantflip]

I'm looking to pep up my 440. I have a aluminum edelbrock intake all ready and a hei distributor . Would like to do a cam swap and throw a fitech throttle body on also and of course headers . Dose anyone have any helpful tips ?

I'm in agreement with the other 2 guys, and will try to save you some $$

Remember, all of the stuff you are talking about doing may lower the car's value for the next guy... lots of folks who will want nothing to do with a less than perfect running non-original/modified car.

Most of your stuff is expensive, not going to change the car for the better and difficult to tune. Mine makes the third reply you've received from someone who had dirty hands professionally.

The one modification I would support... If by HEI (a GM term) you are referring to "Chrysler Electronic Ignition System" as a replacement for the "Lean Burn" ignition... I wouldn't worry too much with a good running car, but would convert a car that wasn't running well due to ignition issues. Convert to Mopar, not ebay, specifications for 1976.

 

[1978 NYB]

No headers available for a Formal. The best you can do is mod a set of B-Body headers. The right side will fit without mods. The left side will need a lot of work. Then the question is why would you want to do that in the first place??? Exhaust manifold and collector bolts are always coming loose and burning up gaskets. It'll also cause spark plug wires to burn up and the starter will fail from the heat eventually. Such a major pain in the *** for just a couple of HP. If you want to pep it up....raise the compression up to 9.5 to 1 by installing new pistons. You can bump up the cam but I wouldn't go any higher than .484 lift on a Formal. The best ignition is the standard Mopar Electronic Ignition used from 1973-1975. They were also used in some 1976 until they started using Lean Burn towards the end of that year. Bronze valve guides and a 3 angle valve job. The time bomb that you have waiting for you is the nylon geared timing chain if it still has the original in it. Need to replace it with a steel roller timing set.

 

[CBODY67]

Strongly agree on the bronze (helicoil) valve guides. PLUS using the Mopar Perf roller timing chain and windage tray. Cloyes Plus Roller might be an alternative, but the MP items are very available as is.

Also agree that somewhere between dead-bone stock and light mods is usually best as the subsequent owners might lose any "build improvement documentation" you might provide them. FAR too many of nice Chryslers suffered an early "death" as many "techs" automatically condemned the Lean Burn System from either observed ignorance of how to troubleshoot the system or where to find that information. Aside from the Chrysler "box" electronic tester, a Chilton book I found went into laborious detail of using a volt-ohm meter. The system operates on sensors that work on "voltage and resistance and grounds" as their inputs. Same as modern systems, just too early for the general mechanic trade outside of Chrysler dealerships. PLUS, that was a time when local mechanics cussed "Gotta' take it back to the dealership for that. They're trying to run us out of business!" So much for that.

The ELB system was far more than just a "lean carburetor", but also an electronic timing control. So, you replace both the distributor AND the carb, not just the carb as many tended to do. Upgrading to the Mopar Perf electronic ignition system kit and a pre-76 carb would do it nicely, but most ended up with a reman distributor (of questionable advance specs) and a reman carb (of questionable metering specs). End result, the cars never ran right again, were sold cheap, and other wise "used". As people fled the Chrysler brand only to find worse things at GM or Ford.

The Edelbrock underhood reservoir/pump is a somewhat painless way to add the pressure side of electronic EFI, IF you can find space underhood to mount it. Pretty much all of the available real estate under the hood of any car of that era is pretty much already spoken for, which leaves you with putting the normal high pressure pump elsewhere and modifying the fuel tank for an expensive "add-on" pump module.

I considered the self-learning EFI for one car I have, even two, until I saw the pricetag of the kits and then labor to install it. Outside of the fuel tank issues! That made the cost of a Edelbrock AFB2 or Street Demon carbs look pretty good, especially IF they are on sale at Summitt! I know how to deal with carbs, too, tuning and recalibration as needed for best results.

New cats are available from many sources and reasonably priced. Just need to cut the pipes to remove the orig ones and replace them with the new ones. On the factory systems, Chrysler usually used under-body heat shields (hanging down from the converters to keep grass from being in direct contact with the hot cats!) and also underbody shields screwed into the floorpans, both sides. Giving your can has them on only one side, some ThermoTech heat wrap might replace that. On the driver's side, just be attuned to how close the cat is to the undercoated underbody! As long as the vehicle is moving, probably not too much concern, but if stopped, then the dispersing heat goes directly upward!

The car should be a nice car. Worrying about getting the cosmetics waxed/shined, preserved will make more of an impression than how much rubber it'll lay! It might suit your hormones to lay rubber and "make noise", as both usually allude to POWER under the hood, which can be a "hormone" thing, by observation. BUT that's not what owning a nice older Chrysler is particularly about. Performance was already at higher levels than what Ford or GM offered, with generally BETTER fuel economy when stock, PLUS not having to slow down to turn corners quite so much, with spacious comfort and quietness. Some might have other orientations on these things. IF they want imports that cost a lot to make perform at "movie levels of performance", and can afford that, that's fine. Perhaps you can show them an alternative with a stock Chrysler that rides smooth, turns, and stops well for what it is. There's more performance in that chassis design than is apparent, otherwise the law enforcement people would not have liked them as much as they did.

CBODY67

 

[Payton Mitchell]

Wow that's alot of response in two days thanks alot I will be doing away with the cats .

 

[Davea Lux]

I'm looking to pep up my 440. I have a aluminum edelbrock intake all ready and a hei distributor . Would like to do a cam swap and throw a fitech throttle body on also and of course headers . Dose anyone have any helpful tips ?

Does you car still have the factory lean burn system, or was it converted at some point?

 

[Payton Mitchell]

Yes sir it still has it.

 

[Davea Lux]

Yes sir it still has it.

In that case, if you are planning to pull off the lean burn system, keep it in a safe place in case you were to decide to sell the car later. As mentioned above, the lean burn used a special distributor used with a computer. You are going to need a different distributor if you delete the lean burn computer, I would suggest the pre-1976 Mopar electronic distributor. You will need to check your aftermarket intake. Some do not have a heat riser passage. That means that you will need to run an aftermarket carb with either an electric or manual choke. Note that some states have made it illegal to remove the pollution control equipment, such as the lean burn system, catalytic convertors, and EGR valves. In some states, on a lot of older cars this provision will expire after the vehicle is more than twenty years old. Check the laws in your state.

If you run the after market market manifolds with no heat riser passage, you will need to disable the heat riser and be sure it is blocked in the open position as there will be no place for the right side exhaust to go if it is shut. Some of the after market intakes have a port for the EGR valve, some do not. Most of the manifolds that have no heat riser passage will not have a port for the EGR valve.

Your after market carb, whichever you choose, will need to have the metering rods properly adjusted for maximum performance and economy. A good shop with an exhaust analyzer can do this for you. You may also need to play around with the timing settings as the factory settings will no longer be applicable.

An as also mentioned above, this would be a great time to replace the factory timing gears if this has not already been done. The factory plastic upper gear can go any time after about 70k and you most certainly do no want that to happen, it will trash your valve train and maybe the whole engine. The older the timing gears get, the more brittle the plastic facing on the upper gear gets, yours is now old enough to go anytime.

Finally, you have something of a rarity, in that most of the troublesome Lean burn systems were tossed years ago, you might seriously want to keep the car stock if it is a nice one.

Dave

 

[Payton Mitchell]

CBODY67 is giving you some excellent advice. Going to dual exhaust should give the most bang for the buck. If you are going to use wrecking yard cats, be sure they have not been holed and are not plugged up. Cats get plugged from running behind an engine that burns oil or has a coolant leak. A lot of shade tree mechanics will take off the cat and drive a piece of pipe down the center of the cat to relieve the back pressure or remove the reagent material altogether from inside the cat. This leaves the cat non functional which can be a problem if you live someplace where you are required to have a DEQ inspection.

Installing an EFI system on a car that was not designed for it is a major pain in the butt Going to an aftermarket AVS or Street Demon carb is probably a better choice. The HEI ignition will not offer much in the way of increased performance as the factory Mopar system was excellent.

At the point you are ready to rebuild the engine, there is a lot that could be done to bring up performance provided you are not having to worry about emissions testing.
Higher compression pistons and the early style heads would be a good place to start as well as installing a steel crankshaft. Things to keep in mind for a later date.

Dave

In that case, if you are planning to pull off the lean burn system, keep it in a safe place in case you were to decide to sell the car later. As mentioned above, the lean burn used a special distributor used with a computer. You are going to need a different distributor if you delete the lean burn computer, I would suggest the pre-1976 Mopar electronic distributor. You will need to check your aftermarket intake. Some do not have a heat riser passage. That means that you will need to run an aftermarket carb with either an electric or manual choke. Note that some states have made it illegal to remove the pollution control equipment, such as the lean burn system, catalytic convertors, and EGR valves. In some states, on a lot of older cars this provision will expire after the vehicle is more than twenty years old. Check the laws in your state.

If you run the after market market manifolds with no heat riser passage, you will need to disable the heat riser and be sure it is blocked in the open position as there will be no place for the right side exhaust to go if it is shut. Some of the after market intakes have a port for the EGR valve, some do not. Most of the manifolds that have no heat riser passage will not have a port for the EGR valve.

Your after market carb, whichever you choose, will need to have the metering rods properly adjusted for maximum performance and economy. A good shop with an exhaust analyzer can do this for you. You may also need to play around with the timing settings as the factory settings will no longer be applicable.

An as also mentioned above, this would be a great time to replace the factory timing gears if this has not already been done. The factory plastic upper gear can go any time after about 70k and you most certainly do no want that to happen, it will trash your valve train and maybe the whole engine. The older the timing gears get, the more brittle the plastic facing on the upper gear gets, yours is now old enough to go anytime.

Finally, you have something of a rarity, in that most of the troublesome Lean burn systems were tossed years ago, you might seriously want to keep the car stock if it is a nice one.

Dave

 

[CBODY67]

In TX, there are a few issues at play regarding the cats. One is that fed law states that no emission control device can be deactivated or removed, only repaired and replaced. That's original Clean Air Act stuff. It used to be that cat converters were considered a part of the exhaust system, not a part of the emissions system, prior to the (IIRC) '85 model year. The age of the car puts it into the "over 25 years old" category, which means only a safety equipment inspection (i.e., no sniffer). IF the car has an existing inspection sticker, putting Antique plates on it means "no yearly inspection" needed, but Classic and normal plates still do. BUT Antique plates have use restrictions on the vehicle with them on it . . . i.e., NO daily driver activity.

The original cats only did HC and CO, although NOx is a player in the total smog recipe, too. EGR and lower compression ratio decreased the "heat of combustion" and NOx, at the time. I'm not a "tree hugger" per se, but I don remember the grungy air I used to see when we'd descend Ranger Hill on I-20, heading back from (at that time) Blue Sky west TX . . . in 1972. I've seen the "gas guzzling" "emissions belching" comments on older cars, but nothing about the tire smoke from Hellcats or black smoke from chipped Cummins diesels, by comparison (although TX does have an "excessive exhaust smoke from diesel pickup" rule).

In the current modern world, there is no real reason to not build a "green hot rod" or similar. Just as there is no reason for a high performance motor to smell of hydrocarbons out the exhaust as some tend to do (from poor tuning or an over-rich fuel calibration to make higher dyno numbers. There might not be legal responsibility, but there still is social responsibility. Size the cats correctly (there are different sizes of pipes and cases) and you can still have clean exhaust and lower exhaust restriction. Some circle track classes require cats on those cars, so that might be one place to look for sizing and such. Then get into the Walker Exhaust catalog and see what's close that will fit under the car.

When the first emissions testing issues were being talked about (in TX) in the earlier 1980s, there were some hot rod owners who staunchly claimed "NO cats on my hot rod!" That was 35+ years ago and hot rods/street rods/street machines are still around, many without cats and some with.

Now, Chrysler still had some non-cat cars in 1975 and 1976 model years. They were the 318 2bbl cars (in some car models), the 360HO, the 400HO, with air pumps, basically . . . police/fleet cars. There were also restrictions about cat-equipped vehicles driving on public lands, due to the perceived fire hazard of the cats and dry grass. This was also a transition time into unleaded gas, too.

If it was mine, I'd find a way to put cats under it, along with the factory-style dual exhaust. Larger size cats, if possible. The main restriction will be at WOT and high rpms, if there is any significant increase in flow restrictions. At cruise, you'll not know they are there, I suspect.

When my '77 Camaro had about 3000 miles on it, I was headed home one night when the trans malfunctioned. If I closed the throttle, the tach would go back to idle at 70mph, freewheeling. When the rpm matched the speed, it'd "catch". Eventually, it needed WOT just to shift. The service manager's home was nearby, so I eased it over there and told him what it was doing. He gave me the "It's under warranty, don't worry" comments. On the way home, I decided to do some diagnostics to see what my "emissions strangled 305" would do. So I hung it in manual low gear and throttled into it. It did NOT hesitate to hit 6000rpm in a steady swing of the tach needle. With a 2bbl Rochester carb! I would then manually shift it into 2nd to keep it driving on the highway. It would not do "3", though. So, with the stock crossflow dual outlet muffler, stock bead converter, and such . . . NO apparent "strangulation" due to cat converter presence under the car . . . contrary to comments by some car magazine people. So I have no issues with a correctly-sized converter(s) being under anything I have.
These are my experiences in that area. But, as always, your car, your money, your desires.

CBODY67

 

[Payton Mitchell]

Shoot me a text 580_525_1986

 

[PontiacJim]

I'm looking to pep up my 440. I have a aluminum edelbrock intake all ready and a hei distributor . Would like to do a cam swap and throw a fitech throttle body on also and of course headers . Dose anyone have any helpful tips ?

The bottom line here is, what is your budget? It does not sound like you are looking to pull the engine and do a rebuild, but rather want to install add-ons.

All components need to match, so you have to make a plan that works with your budget. The cam selection is what I build around - but it has to match compression, intake/head flow, exhaust flow, and even your trans/rear combo. Select the wrong cam and anything you do could be disappointing.

So first thing would be to look at cam specs and the manufacturers requirements that match the cam. The advantage with the 440 is cubic inches and cubic inches rule. You can build a milder engine that can get the performance of a smaller engine needing to be built bigger, ie more work & expensive parts. Shopping for a cam, I would look more for torque, rather than HP, as torque is what will move all that car.

Once the cam is selected, then choose your intake/carb or the fuel injection system. A carb, in my opinion, would be the easiest and cheapest route to install, versus the EFI which will require an electric fuel pump & wiring. The manufacturer usually sells a complete and matched system that is know to work together. Don't know if there is a specific mounting recommendation for the electric pump, but most get mounted at the rear and often in the tank - but know you can get an external pump as well.

Exhaust is a no brainer. If the car does not have to meet emissions standards due to its age then dual exhaust with nice flowing mufflers. Headers are always aggravation, and for a street car, not really worth it. I'd install what ever size head pipes fit the manifolds and as soon as it makes the curve going back, step the entire system up to 2 1/2" pipe all the way back.

Ignition, as I recall, has the distributor tied into the LeanBurn system. Had one on a 400CI '77 Dodge Monaco Royal. It would act up on me and sometimes not run, then run, then not. Being a young guy, I could not afford to replace the "brain," so I sold it. At the time, doing a conversion was not of interest. If you are not trying to keep it original/stock, I would update the distributor and hang on to the old one to keep with the car if you sell it. I would get a ready to run plug/play unit and be done with it.

I would recommend a higher stall converter. My '73 Fury has the 2bbl 360 and the higher factory 2500 RPM converter. Very peppy when I nail it and I can cruise at 80 MPH all day long with the gearing I have. Gas mileage is not what you are going to get with a 440CI and a heavy car, so don't fool yourself. EFI may help as compared to a carb, but probably not enough to justify the price of it. If you get a converter, you want a "tight" converter vesus a "loose" converter. Installed one in my brother's 360CI SixPack powered car and it does not slip when using easy/part throttle applications, but will zing right up when you nail the gas and his car just takes off - unless he just wants to smoke the tires from a dead stop.

Compression has to do with power, but you do not need high compression to make good power on the street. You can compensate for the lower compression by building up more cylinder pressure with the correct cam choice. Hughes Engines has such a cam called the Whiplash Cam. Click here: Hughes Engines Listen to a few of the cars with the Whiplash Cam and tell me they don't sound good. Check out the specs, recommended parts, listen to the video clip, and then email Hughes with your "plan." These guys who do this for a living know there stuff and can give you the matching combo you need to build your ride the right way without being disappointed.

Just my opinion.

 

[Payton Mitchell]

Thank you everyone means alot to be honest. I'm just looking to make more power on my stock motor. I have another 440 that I would like to build in the future.

 

[monaco75]

Ill go against the grain a little. I understand re sale value, and what not. But why worry about it? Its my car. Unless its a low mileage time capsule, I wouldnt be afraid to update it a bit.

I planned on running a fitech efi on my formal, but $$ hasnt let me do it yet. I still planned for it, by installing this hei dizzy through pace performance (except for a black cap).

TSP-JM6714BL Mopar BB Ready to Run Electronic Distributor. Blue Cap

From the little bit of seat time Ive had with it, I’m quite happy with it. She seems to fire up a bit quicker, and idles a lot smoother then the orange box’s I’m used to. Throttle response felt a little crisper as well.

One part of the fitech I liked a lot, was being able to use their “command center” vs re plumbing the fuel lines, and adding a electric pump. A lot of people seem to not like this idea, but the few I’ve heard from who went this route seem to love it.

Yes, they are only a throttle body, and not multiport. Still light years ahead of the carb imo. Think of your stock 440 vs driving a stock magnum small block from the early ‘90s. Quite a difference.

Hooker makes headers for formals. They are expensive!! But do fit.

Hooker Super Competition Headers 5113HKR

Bad thing about formals is hood clearence. Not a lot of options for intakes. I love the edelbrock rpm intake, but won’t fit our formals without cutting some stuff up...

 

[Payton Mitchell]

Thanks alot Monaco 75 I am not worried about perserving it for the next owner . I got it to drive and have fun in . Yes I planned on getting the Fitech system for the fact it's newer and less tunning then a carb. Thanks