Bad News from ESPO

[Big_John]

From ESPO's Facebook page:

ESPO Springs 'n Things

ESPO Springs 'n Things

"Coils springs, shackle kits, bushings, ubolts, front eye bolts and front end chassis parts ship within a week. Usually 1-3 days.
NOW FOR THE SAD NEWS

Leaf springs are currently about 4-5 months lead time.
Due to not being able to keep up with leaf springs, our ages, the rising costs and the labor involved with leaf springs, as we run out of inventory they will be discontinued.
As they are discontinued I will try to update on website and Facebook.
We can still do most vehicles so unless you see your car listed below please email laura@springsnthings.com or send a message here.
We are NOT going out of business just discontinuing leaf springs as we run out of inventory to do them. We are still doing bushings, eye bolts shackles, ubolts, front end parts and coil springs.
If you have an order in with us it will be shipped in the timeframe you were given although it’s possible it will be a couple weeks later than quoted for orders placed in August and September because we had more open orders than I thought originally. I apologize In advance If It Is a little late
It is only new orders we will not be able to do for the following cars and are now DISCONTINUED:
American Motors
1968-1969 AMX HD and Javelin HD, standard are still available
1970 AMX HD, standard are still available. 70 Javelin HD is still avalable.
Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth
1964 Fury, Savoy, Sport Fury
1964-1965 330, 440, Polara, Belvedere, Satellite
1966-1973 6 leaf HD or 6/7 440/Hemi B Body Dodge Charger, Coronet, Plymouth Belvedere, Satellite etc (5-leaf still available for 6 cyl, small block and 383)
1970-1974 6-leaf for 440/Hemi E Body Barracuda and Challenger (5-leaf still available for small block, 383 and AAR/TA)
Ford
1965-1973 Mustang most of competition handling and heavier ones. We can still do most of the standard ones.
Mercury
1967-1973 Cougar - standard and competition handling
Pontiac
1954-1958 Pontiac Star Chief (28 series)
It's a sad day at ESPO. We hope to still do business with you on the coils, shackles, bushings, bolts and front end chasis parts along with the leafs that are still available.
We hope you have a great rest of year and holiday season!"

 

[MoPar~Man]

I don't get that. They can supply all new "standard" springs, but not "hd" springs - presumably those having 1 or 2 extra leafs.

What is the real problem here?

Do they not make new leaf packs from new flat stock? Which means as long as they can get flat stock, it doesn't matter how many leafs are in a pack? Or is their supply of flat stock the problem here?

Or do they get these packs already made up from somewhere, and they just can't order or buy or stock the same variety they had in the past?

I think they must get these pre-made, or they're now switching to pre-made from over seas.

 

[Pete Kaczmarski]

Years ago when I compared the manufacturers, I went with St. Louis Spring. They were moderately cheaper, and I was happy with them.

 

[CBODY67]

In the 1970s and 1980s, I frequented a long-time spring shop in near-northern Fort Worth, TX. They did re-arches and added leaves upon request. I saw them do their jobs as I was there over those years. I saw the small kiln they used to heat the metal red-hot, then bend it on their jig, then "chill" that hot leave in cool water, and then let it air cool until it was ready for assembly. No "heat, cold chill, and put together" operation at all. Might take a good 30 minutes to do ONE spring assy. Labor intensive, natural gas intensive, time-consuming.

In later years, the kiln was not used as the leaves were re-arched via using a hydraulic chisel to intent the top of the spring to make the arc. To me, this was not nearly as good. LOTS of little flat segments with "stress risers" at each compression point the chisel made. Obviously less expensive to do, but still took time.

Now, what I saw was a "small time" operation, yet it was serving a moderately-sized repair shop that was heavy into school bus and heavier truck verhicle repairs. Just think of getting that operation scaled-up to deal with the muscle car hobby and such! Massive investments required to do that! Even if they might have "cards" to punch into a computer to make finished leaves pop out of the other end of the machine.

When I found out about ESPO, they suddenly became an alternative to Eaton Detroit Spring, which was the first noted spring repro group I heard of for OEM-spec springs.

Not doing "leaves", but still doing "coils" is interesting. It would seem that the leaf stock would not be as variable as the "wire diameters" of the coil springs. How the wire is terminated on each end of the coil spring can be variable, too, but probably easier than doing the "eyes" on leaf springs?

Personally, and respectfully, I kind of "smell" something else at play. Like their investors want more profits from the company. I have observed that the easiest way to do that is to "cut" things, which can also mean less workers and operating expenses. Suddenly, the changes result in immediate profits, so those that advocated those changes look like financial heroes. As this can usually result in the longer-term, slow demise of the entity. When people (who allegedly CAN ask questions) do ask questions, it's too late to save anything, so "liquidation of assets" happens and the entity is gone. These things would be "behind the scenes" issues, but watching what is said and how it is said tells the tale.

I understand "the spin" and hope they stay in business many more years! I hope somebody can "prove me wrong" in my thoughts/observations mentioned above!

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[Big_John]

In the 1970s and 1980s, I frequented a long-time spring shop in near-northern Fort Worth, TX. They did re-arches and added leaves upon request. I saw them do their jobs as I was there over those years. I saw the small kiln they used to heat the metal red-hot, then bend it on their jig, then "chill" that hot leave in cool water, and then let it air cool until it was ready for assembly. No "heat, cold chill, and put together" operation at all. Might take a good 30 minutes to do ONE spring assy. Labor intensive, natural gas intensive, time-consuming.

In later years, the kiln was not used as the leaves were re-arched via using a hydraulic chisel to intent the top of the spring to make the arc. To me, this was not nearly as good. LOTS of little flat segments with "stress risers" at each compression point the chisel made. Obviously less expensive to do, but still took time.

Now, what I saw was a "small time" operation, yet it was serving a moderately-sized repair shop that was heavy into school bus and heavier truck verhicle repairs. Just think of getting that operation scaled-up to deal with the muscle car hobby and such! Massive investments required to do that! Even if they might have "cards" to punch into a computer to make finished leaves pop out of the other end of the machine.

When I found out about ESPO, they suddenly became an alternative to Eaton Detroit Spring, which was the first noted spring repro group I heard of for OEM-spec springs.

Not doing "leaves", but still doing "coils" is interesting. It would seem that the leaf stock would not be as variable as the "wire diameters" of the coil springs. How the wire is terminated on each end of the coil spring can be variable, too, but probably easier than doing the "eyes" on leaf springs?

Personally, and respectfully, I kind of "smell" something else at play. Like their investors want more profits from the company. I have observed that the easiest way to do that is to "cut" things, which can also mean less workers and operating expenses. Suddenly, the changes result in immediate profits, so those that advocated those changes look like financial heroes. As this can usually result in the longer-term, slow demise of the entity. When people (who allegedly CAN ask questions) do ask questions, it's too late to save anything, so "liquidation of assets" happens and the entity is gone. These things would be "behind the scenes" issues, but watching what is said and how it is said tells the tale.

I understand "the spin" and hope they stay in business many more years! I hope somebody can "prove me wrong" in my thoughts/observations mentioned above!

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

From what I see, ESPO is a "Mom and Pop" supplier. I don't know how much they actually manufacture, but I don't think it's a lot. I don't think they have a large shop and probably not a lot of employees. Googling their address shows a small facility, most likely next to their home.

I think they may be buying the spring steel, probably cut to width, and building the springs as needed from there. You don't need a lot of tooling to do that, but that's just a guess. I seriously doubt they are making coil springs though. I've been in spring manufacturers that were building smaller springs and the tooling is more involved and you have to heat treat after coiling.

What I think is happening is the owners are getting older (they mention age as a factor) and don't want to mess with it anymore. If they are having supplier issues, that probably isn't helping. It's simpler to sit back and sell stuff than actually manufacturing product.

I had a chat with the owner of the machine shop doing my 273. He's swamped with work as other machine shops in the area have closed, mostly the owners have retired and closed their doors. Another is closing at the end of the year and he's figuring on getting even more work. One thing he was telling me was that this is happening with core suppliers for race engine parts as the owners age out or the business environment has become such that it's hard to do business. He's 66 and he's done well with other investments (you should see his house!) and I kind of expect him to pull the plug in the next few years. The hobby is going to start really suffering soon.

Eaton Spring also seems to be a "Mom and Pop" business, albeit more employees in a larger facility. It also looks to be a 2nd or 3rd generation family ownership, based on a couple videos I've watched.

If you figure everything in, it makes business sense for ESPO to scale back and eliminate the leaf spring business. The costs are growing, apparently it's harder to get materials, and the customer base is decreasing as the guys restoring cars that need leaf springs age out. With the owners getting older, they want to not break their backs and just sell and ship product.

 

[CBODY67]

I concur on the "age" issue, especially on machine shops where the business was started by the current owner. Yet there will always be a need for good machine shops to build engines! BUT, as the broad popularity of "crate motors" expands, the current machine shop customer base will still be there, as the "younger" customers gravitate to purchases from hot rod parts big box retailers (which DO have their place in things). BTAIM

The machine shop operations run by their original owners can all be ending in the forseable future, yet there will always be people building race engines for circle track and drag racing, as always. Finding these people will be a bit easier than in past decades, BUT the best way is "word of mouth" rather than "phone books", usually. IF you have the connections and "know people who know people", the look can be short as you initially trust the knowledge of others and go from there. Part of that process can FIRST be determining WHO really "knows something"! There can be lots of "pretenders" out there! Just as there can be a good number of "good mechanics" that know enough to "get by well", but have a lower amount of "real knowledge" of things, by observation. BTAIM

My late machine shop guy built trophy-winning engines for drag racing and dirt track racers. He did those engines with an engine block-mounted boring bar, a ring gapper, calipers, and a good "wash rack" and air compressor. It was not until the later 1990s when he got a Rottler line bore/cylinder bore and hone/block decking machine. Having the machine do the honing work was probably easier on his shoulders. He noted that somebody using such a machine still had to know how to read the load gauge for the honing operation or the cylinder walls would not be straight, but barrel shaped. So you still had to know how to use that fancier machine!

He also had a brother that was in the engine core business. Which is where he got his "factory matched set of connecting rods" (all factory-balanced), mainly. Or a complete core engine to rebuild for customers. Nice little tie-in! He loved what he did and did it until he could not do it anymore. He had an amazing amount of knowledge in his head!

Take care,
CBODY67

 

[Big_John]

The machine shop operations run by their original owners can all be ending in the forseable future, yet there will always be people building race engines for circle track and drag racing, as always.

There are a few race machine shops around, but they tend to specialize and not be interested in doing the stock stuff. For example, I was out there the other day, dropping off the heads, and someone came in with a crankshaft out of a tractor. The owner recognized immediately what it was and said "no problem".

He has some Continental engines for some old Jeeps that he's doing that he showed me. Two different customers that happened to come in at the same time. A flathead Ford engine was sitting there, ready to be run in. That's the "bread and butter" work that the race shops aren't going to touch.

IMHO, based on what I've seen, the 2nd and 3rd generations of these business owners aren't too interested in taking over the business. If they do, they aren't "hungry" like their father or grandfather was and don't have the drive. That's nothing new... We seen that for years and history is littered with the remnants of businesses run into the ground by the founder's kids.

 

[CBODY67]

Yep. "Run into the ground" or "sold" by the time things get to the 3rd generation of family running things, related to new car dealerships operations. I knew of one Buick franchise, 4th Gen, that was still successful. A small town operation from the early 1900s. They took a GM buy-out when GM was starting to require investments in their future electrical vehicles on the horizons. They were still in their original building, too, so a new building was in the mix, too. They got out at the right time. Keeping the family legacy intact.

CBODY67

 

[SIPLOWGUY]

There was a spring shop in Brooklyn called Long Life Spring. They recently closed have been in business since the 40's.

 

[Cop car wagon]

I had springs made for my wagon. The old timer schooled me on re-arcing and made me a set fresh, with the red hot, arc'd, and cooled method.
They are perfect.
Later, for a different car, a set was re-arc'd cold.
In twice because he couldn't hit the height right, still aren't right and he's gone.
Of course, the real spring shop was gone years ago.
And people wonder why I have stacks of springs around.
Give me a main leaf, and we can put something together.

 

[MoPar~Man]

I think there's enough commercial / truck / trailer R&R going on for there to always be local spring shops. It could be that as transportation / shipping costs have gone through the roof in the past 10 years, that a spring shop heavily reliant on mail-order business is going to be hurting (because these things are heavy).

Regarding the health or size of the north-american collector car market, Haggerty has put out some numbers and graphs - this one is interesting:

A chart like that might tell you a lot where something like leaf vs coil springs for car repair will be going in the future.

Haggerty goes on to say this:

The total, nearly 31 million enthusiast vehicles in the United States, still represents but a slice of the overall car market, which is some 275 million and counting. But it’s a significant slice. For perspective, there are more collectible vehicles in the United States than there are registered vehicles of any kind in Canada (27.9 million).

The fact that there are so many collector cars also tells us there are plenty of collectors. Hagerty estimates there are 18 million enthusiast vehicle owners in the United States, meaning 8 percent of all Americans with a driver’s license have a collector car in their driveway.

 

[Lefty71]

That is a shame. Hopefully things will improve for them, and their product offering.

 

[MoPar~Man]

This is also being discussed on FABO. Someone made a comment that supposedly or possibly ESPO was getting their leaf springs from here:

John R. Spring Service, Inc. Leaf Springs

We carry a full line of Leaf Springs, Coil Springs and Accessories for passenger cars, light trucks, heavy trucks and trailers, Western Plow parts, Load Master Helper Springs and Load Star Variable Rate Coil Springs

www.johnrspring.com

Actually, it's best to follow the FABO thread, as this "John R Springs" is turning out to be a red herring.

espo, bad news for some.

this is posted on their Facebook page. Coils springs, shackle kits, bushings, ubolts, front eye bolts and front end chassis parts ship within a week. Usually 1-3 days. NOW FOR THE SAD NEWS Leaf springs are currently about 4-5 months lead time. Due to not being able to keep up with leaf...

www.forabodiesonly.com

"but you're better off going directly to the source that they'd get them like General Spring in KC. If fact, they used to get them from overseas sources. That's exactly what the gentleman told me."

 

[tbm3fan]

There are a few race machine shops around, but they tend to specialize and not be interested in doing the stock stuff. For example, I was out there the other day, dropping off the heads, and someone came in with a crankshaft out of a tractor. The owner recognized immediately what it was and said "no problem".

He has some Continental engines for some old Jeeps that he's doing that he showed me. Two different customers that happened to come in at the same time. A flathead Ford engine was sitting there, ready to be run in. That's the "bread and butter" work that the race shops aren't going to touch.

IMHO, based on what I've seen, the 2nd and 3rd generations of these business owners aren't too interested in taking over the business. If they do, they aren't "hungry" like their father or grandfather was and don't have the drive. That's nothing new... We seen that for years and history is littered with the remnants of businesses run into the ground by the founder's kids.

The fellow I use is only two miles down the road from me and he is 64 years old. He has already done the machine work on my 410 heads and engine block which I am assembling now. Now I mentioned to him about bringing in my 2.2L Mazda and 360 Mopar engine for rebuild next year. He hesitated as he wasn't sure he would be around. He does have a lot of work from private jobs and dealer work but can't find help. That is his biggest issue along that his wife died of breast cancer in May. His outside interests is reading fictional novels and painting.

He did me a favor and when I saw him using a cheap pair of crappy readers and I asked when he had his eyes last check. Never, as he is an "if ain't broke, nothing to fix" kind of guy. Told him to come into my office and get a free eye exam. Oh, hell yes, he could be seeing a lot better than he is. Leave it to me as I know exactly what will work. On top of that he was a strong glaucoma suspect and told him to call Kaiser if you want to see what you are painting. I have to stop by next week to double check he called. He does good work and hope he hangs in there through 2026 so I can get those two engines done. Another fellow, one mile down the street, who did my king pins closed shop and sold everything off in September.

 

[1970FuryConv]

The fellow I use is only two miles down the road from me and he is 64 years old. He has already done the machine work on my 410 heads and engine block which I am assembling now. Now I mentioned to him about bringing in my 2.2L Mazda and 360 Mopar engine for rebuild next year. He hesitated as he wasn't sure he would be around. He does have a lot of work from private jobs and dealer work but can't find help. That is his biggest issue along that his wife died of breast cancer in May. His outside issue is reading fictional novels and painting.

He did me a favor and when I saw him using a cheap pair of crappy readers and I asked when he had his eyes last check. Never, as he is an "if ain't broke, nothig to fix" kind of guy. Told him to come into my office and get a free eye exam. Oh, hell yes, he could be seeing a lot better than he is. Leave it to me as I know exactly what will work. On top of that he was a strong glaucoma suspect and told him to call Kaiser if you want to see what you are painting. I have to stop by next week to double check he called. He does good work and hope he hangs in there through 2026 so I can get those two engines done. Another fellow, one mile down the street, who did my king pins closed shop and sold everything off in September.

That was nice of you to care for the machine shop owner enough to give him an eye exam. Well done!

Machine shops are closing in my area too. Owners are aging out and good employees are hard to find. The demand is there, because one shop has a message on his machine that he is so overwhelmed with work, he is not taking new jobs for the next several months. Don't know why the law of supply and demand does not bring new machine shops in this industry.

 

['69FuryIIIConvertible]

Even my local spring shop closed uo when the owner retired. I'm now in fear of the same thing happening with my machinist

 

[Big_John]

The fellow I use is only two miles down the road from me and he is 64 years old. He has already done the machine work on my 410 heads and engine block which I am assembling now. Now I mentioned to him about bringing in my 2.2L Mazda and 360 Mopar engine for rebuild next year. He hesitated as he wasn't sure he would be around. He does have a lot of work from private jobs and dealer work but can't find help. That is his biggest issue along that his wife died of breast cancer in May. His outside issue is reading fictional novels and painting.

He did me a favor and when I saw him using a cheap pair of crappy readers and I asked when he had his eyes last check. Never, as he is an "if ain't broke, nothig to fix" kind of guy. Told him to come into my office and get a free eye exam. Oh, hell yes, he could be seeing a lot better than he is. Leave it to me as I know exactly what will work. On top of that he was a strong glaucoma suspect and told him to call Kaiser if you want to see what you are painting. I have to stop by next week to double check he called. He does good work and hope he hangs in there through 2026 so I can get those two engines done. Another fellow, one mile down the street, who did my king pins closed shop and sold everything off in September.

As someone that's had eye issues for a long time (cataracts at 32 and detached retinas in both eyes) and has near perfect vision now due to some really good doctors, I can really appreciate being able to see. Kudos to you for this.

Since we're on the subject, my eye doctor (retina specialist) is 82 and told me the last time he saw me that he wasn't planning on retirement. He seems in good health except for some back problems, but we'll see (pun intended) what happens. He's not doing surgery anymore though. As an aside, he has at least a dozen Corvettes in various conditions and does a lot of charity work in the rain forest in South America. The hallway to his office is lined with native art purchased there. Interesting guy....

 

[Big_John]

Machine shops are closing in my area too. Owners are aging out and good employees are hard to find.

You are hitting the nail on the head with that. Before I retired (10 years ago next month) I talked to a lot of people in manufacturing and the biggest issue was getting good employees. I can't imagine it has gotten any better since then.

Don't know why the law of supply and demand does not bring new machine shops in this industry.

I would think it would, but there's a lot of roadblocks to new business these days. Buying existing businesses takes capital that many younger people don't have and banks are more reluctant to finance. Starting from scratch is hard to do (been there, done that) and from talking to the owner of the shop I use, the profit margin isn't high enough to make it inviting. It's not an easy business either. It's a lot of hard work.

You may see some larger businesses take over, but the days of the "Mom and Pop" shops with personal service and quality are going away.

 

[Big_John]

In twice because he couldn't hit the height right, still aren't right and he's gone.
Of course, the real spring shop was gone years ago.

I think there's enough commercial / truck / trailer R&R going on for there to always be local spring shops.

Even my local spring shop closed uo when the owner retired

From what I see, local spring shops are large truck based. Need a spring repaired for your dump truck? No problem. No one is gonna care if the truck sits 2" higher in the rear. The retail guy that comes in and is fussy about the end results isn't their customer base and if they are, they probably won't be much longer.

My '70 300 had springs rebuilt by the PO at a local shop with a great reputation. It sat too high, road too stiff and since they did the removal/installation, those offset shackles that the '70 fuselages have were beyond screwed up. They can do trucks great, but passenger cars are out of their realm.

All this is really coming down to the fact that we only have one reliable supplier (Eaton) for replacement/restoration leaf springs. Their quality is good from what I hear, but their prices have gone up and it's going to be more expensive to ship from Michigan for some. I don't see local spring shops working out for most, although some have had good luck. Just like muffler shops, some localities have a good shop that will do custom bending and some don't. There's nothing like that around here anymore.

 

[CBODY67]

Most of the people now "ageing out" grew up when cars and such changed EACH year, enough so that you could tell the model and year without looking twice. Basic engine tech was constant, but tweaked each year or so, whether by cubic inch displacement (and power) or new intake manifolding. Had to pay attention to what was what to keep up with things. Things were much more fun back then and those guys lived through it. When 425 horsepower was "the ultimate" of power from the OEMs.

Now, the normal V-6 has 300 horsepower or there-abouts. Even some larger turbo 4cyls. The lack of low end torque is made of by the 8-speed automatics' 4.5-4.7 low gear ratio (plus torque converter multiplication). Now, the power target seems to be "500 horsepower", as if those talking about that number really know what it means, respectfully OR that it only happens at over 6000rpm. OR that getting that power to the ground, reliably, is a big issue. Traction control? That wears out the brake linings. BUT now as "earlier", THEY are learning about such things just like many of us were in our earlier years. Same game, different environment and time.

Getting into business? No bank will fund any business where the loan applicant has little to no experiences in said business, usually. So that mans that the existing employees of that legacy machine shop could be well-positioned to take over the business and hopefully keep it going. Although they have little experience with the financials of the entity, usually. The only issue is that most of those legacy shops were owner-run/operated with great repeat business. Many knew their limitations and didn't do other things, unless they learned them. Machinery? That can be leased. Location? Either update the older business "to current codes" or start in a new warehouse building that can deal with the fluids the business produces. Then there are "prevailing pricings" to deal with, too. Oh . . . can't forget the engine dyno! Although not everybody can have a known and thriving business as "Nick's Garage" does.

So, finding and existing shop to ease into and later buy-out is probably the best deal, not happening that much. Whether from decreased desires or population expansion into former farm lands. Now it seems that finding a great machinist is like finding a great doctor, unfortunately. What many could consider to be "generic" is really about hand-eye coordination, knowing what one is looking at and feeling with their fingertips, with the mental database to support those activities.

Anyway, we'll get through this, one way or another.

Enjoy!
CBODY67