Utility bill rant - No wonder we can't get ahead

Davea Lux said:
The EPA actually went so far as studying Methane emissions from range and dairy cows back in 2008. In Wyoming the installed strap on sensors on some animals to measure fart gas and belching to come up with an estimate of how much methane each animal was producing. There was considerable worry at the time that the government might impose a carbon tax or "fart tax" on beef and dairy animals to combat "Global Warming". Fortunately, that wacko idea never got any traction in the legislative process. If you Google "Government Studying Methane Emissions for Cows?" several articles on the various studies still come up.

The French prime minister, Macron, is currently supporting a "Meat Tax" to combat "Climate Change". The theory being that a high tax on meat will discourage consumption and reduce methane emissions. His current poll numbers are in the toilet, so that proposed tax is probably doomed. Just goes to show though that the nut jobs out there will never stop trying to impose their will.

Dave
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Is this the same idiot that married his teacher. That's some real Alabama 49% there.
 
MarPar said:
View attachment 157212
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My reply to someone like her would be:
Trump meme.PNG
 
69CoronetRT said:
Your electric transmission and distribution charges are incredible! Where’s you power come from? Hoover Dam? Yikes!
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80% of our power comes from coal fired stations, something we have in abundance, also some natural gas, and hydro. Our beloved socialists have declared that all coal power will be outlawed within 10 years to be replaced with green energy. Wind and solar. Personally I would like to see these people taking shifts running on squirrel cage driven generators 24/7. Maybe then they would appreciate how cheap our coal power is. Plus coal has employed new technology to vastly improve emissions.
 
1Fury1 said:
Our beloved socialists have declared that all coal power will be outlawed within 10 years to be replaced with green energy. Wind and solar.
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Yeah......good luck with that. Wind and solar will become more prevalent but have a ceiling. You still need reliable 24/7 base load generation that can be dispatched as needed. The trend is away from coal and nuke to natural gas....another limited supply fossil fuel. I’m intrigued by mini nukes: a small 5-20mw generation plant.

Increasing demand with lower generation = even higher prices than you see now.
 
FWIW...
Here in the SUNSHINE STATE, there is zero incentive for utilities to go Solar. Theyre closing the nuke plants and...

WAIT FOR IT.

... going back to coal.
 
commando1 said:
FWIW...
Here in the SUNSHINE STATE, there is zero incentive for utilities to go Solar. Theyre closing the nuke plants and...

WAIT FOR IT.

... going back to coal.
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Without support/subsidies, the economics of solar don’t pencil out real well.

Large capacity plants are best generated by coal, nuke or hydro.
 
69CoronetRT said:
Yeah......good luck with that. Wind and solar will become more prevalent but have a ceiling. You still need reliable 24/7 base load generation that can be dispatched as needed. The trend is away from coal and nuke to natural gas....another limited supply fossil fuel. I’m intrigued by mini nukes: a small 5-20mw generation plant.

Increasing demand with lower generation = even higher prices than you see now.
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I read someplace that about 15% of grid power can be supplied with solar and wind. Much more that that, if the wind does not blow or skies are overcast, the grid gets unstable, overloaded and crashes. It is not really feasible to have a coal, nuke or gas fired plant on standby to make up any short fall as you would have to have crews on standby to run them. If you have to pay the crews, you might as well use the plant to generate power in the first place.

The small mini-nuke plants have a new design that makes them a lot safer than the traditional large nuke plant. If the mini plant overheats, the design is such that the reactive material is forced apart and the reaction is stopped, so it can not melt down.

Down side is that building a bunch of small plants is more expensive than one large one. Another downside is that securing many small plants is a potential problem that would require a large number of security officers.

Dave
 
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Davea Lux said:
I read someplace that about 15% of grid power can be supplied with solar or wind. Much more that that, if the wind does not blow or skies are overcast, the grid gets unstable, overloaded and crashes. It is not really feasible to have a coal, nuke or gas fired plant on standby to make up any short fall as you would have to have crews on standby to run them. If you have to pay the crews, you might as well use the plant to generate power in the first place.

The small mini-nuke plants have a new design that makes them a lot safer than the traditional large nuke plant. If the mini plant overheats, the design is such that the reactive material is forced apart and the reaction is stopped, so it can not melt down.

Down side is that building a bunch of small plants is more expensive than one large one. Another downside is that securing many small plants is a potential problem that would require a large number of security officers.

Dave
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I’ve heard 30% max but regardless of the actual percentage possible, it’s not enough to supply demand. And it costs more per kw. You still have to have 24/7 generation from some sort of power plant.

The utopian 100% solar and wind is impossible.
 
A lot of Idiots down here are doing personal solar installations on their residences.
The ones driving their Suburbans and LandRovers, that is...
 
69CoronetRT said:
I’ve heard 30% max but regardless of the actual percentage possible, it’s not enough to supply demand. And it costs more per kw. You still have to have 24/7 generation from some sort of power plant.

The utopian 100% solar and wind is impossible.
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I misspoke, that was 15% wind and 15% solar for a max of 30% for clarification.

Dave
 
1Fury1 said:
80% of our power comes from coal fired stations, something we have in abundance, also some natural gas, and hydro. Our beloved socialists have declared that all coal power will be outlawed within 10 years to be replaced with green energy. Wind and solar. Personally I would like to see these people taking shifts running on squirrel cage driven generators 24/7. Maybe then they would appreciate how cheap our coal power is. Plus coal has employed new technology to vastly improve emissions.
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While the idiot politicians are running in the squirrel cage, why not feed them a diet of baked beans and hook a methane recovery system to their behinds. Call it "Renewable Energy"

Dave
 
commando1 said:
A lot of Idiots down here are doing personal solar installations on their residences.
The ones driving their Suburbans and LandRovers, that is...
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Back at the turn of the decade, I looked at it hard... there was a ton of fresh BO money promised, and between the grants and the utility buyback... I think there was a break even in there... maybe a small profit for the right system with a little luck... but what happens to your roof mount system when it's dead and a liability at 20 years in?

Biggest reason I wasn't going to try was the grant money, that gave it a chance to work, required the system be installed by one of the companies on a list... I don't think any of them stayed in business more than a few years...
 
cantflip said:
Back at the turn of the decade, I looked at it hard... there was a ton of fresh BO money promised, and between the grants and the utility buyback... I think there was a break even in there... maybe a small profit for the right system with a little luck... but what happens to your roof mount system when it's dead and a liability at 20 years in?

Biggest reason I wasn't going to try was the grant money, that gave it a chance to work, required the system be installed by one of the companies on a list... I don't think any of them stayed in business more than a few years...
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The other issue they do not tell you about is that you are on the hook to remove and re-install the system when you need to replace your roof. In Oregon we typically get 20-25 years out of our roofs, by then the solar panels are at or have exceeded their design life but are still well short of having paid for themselves. The re-install and removal job is a minimum of$4-5k, that is a lot of electricity.

Dave
 
The Alternative Energy (Solar Div.) lobbiests have poured a ton of money into conning politicians that it's the right thing (in their voting area) to "invest" in.
Better than kissing babies.
 
commando1 said:
The Alternative Energy (Solar Div.) lobbiests have poured a ton of money into conning politicians that it's the right thing (in their voting area) to "invest" in.
Better than kissing babies.
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"Conning" the politicians might be too kind of a term. The sellers and manufacturers
of solar panels and windmills went to the politicians and said to the effect"we could use a little help here" Politicians pass grant legislation to promote "clean" energy. Grant money encourages people to install windmills and solar panels. The manufacturers and installers make money. Politicians get political contributions to get re-elected. Repeat as necessary.

Dave
 
Davea Lux said:
"Conning" the politicians might be too kind of a term. The sellers and manufacturers
of solar panels and windmills went to the politicians and said to the effect"we could use a little help here" Politicians pass grant legislation to promote "clean" energy. Grant money encourages people to install windmills and solar panels. The manufacturers and installers make money. Politicians get political contributions to get re-elected. Repeat as necessary.

Dave
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Thanks Dave, I would add that IMO the whole thing benefited not only the solar industry, which has received way too much government support, but also a certain income bracket... the grant money didn't pay for anything up front. I don't have facts to back this up, and am too lazy to look... but to get the grant money, you had to pay up front. There was a nice government backed no interest loan available too... for a brief period, there was so much going for this that it almost made sense.

The problem I had was I didn't really have deep enough pockets to front the money and get stuck with the bill. At the time I looked at this, they didn't have a very good system for mounting above a metal roof, or to clarify, between local building code and the covered companies they only gave one "approved" option. There is a nice clamp system that wasn't allowed, at least at that time. Solar over shingles seemed as dumb to me as it does to you. plus the mounting systems are leak points waiting to happen.
 
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