Catastrophic Rim Failure; Factory Original 14" Stamped Steel Rim

[SuperDave]

Looks to me to be a confluence of issues added together that led to this:
50+ years of use (& possible abuse), especially with drum brakes (lots of heat/cool cycles)
Steel belted tires as opposed to the bias ply these were designed for
Bad roads
And you mentioned your alignment isn't top notch

Nice thing about disc brakes is their ability to shed heat, which is why they don't suffer from brake fade (as much). And since the front brakes do most of the work, it stands to reason the front brakes get hotter. Anything bolted to the brake drums (like the rims) are going to get hot too. You mentioned you had just dropped off the kid at school. That implies 20 mph school zones, i.e. you were riding the brakes, ergo HEAT! Factor in over 5 decades of repeated heat cycles, steel belted tires that transmit more harsh vibrations than the original bias ply tires would have absorbed, rough roads AND an off kilter alignment providing additional stress, it all adds up to a worse case scenario.

It sounds like your guardian angel was looking out for you, holding out until after your kid was safely delivered to school, and your benevolent demon struck before you achieved highway speeds. You got lucky. Buy a lotto ticket! Take your winnings and upgrade to front disc brakes, new rims and rubber.

You never mentioned if the fender took damage, but you did mention it cut the tire when it came off. Any pics of that? You know, so your C-Body buddies can offer prayers of praise and gratitude to the Great White Spirit In The Sky for looking out for folks like us.

p.s. Happy Father's Day

 

[Big_John]

I think I see a possible cause for this happening. Looking at the lug hole, you can see it's been overtightened to the point of distorting the hole. I'll bet that the lugnuts were bottoming out and not holding the wheel. That lets it move around a little, and the wheel would flex. Once it starts flex and moving around, the weakest point could start cracking.

When the wheel center is stamped, the points that are stretched are the thinnest and the most likely to break.

That's my theory anyway.

Overtightening has always been a problem as the guys in the tire shops always had the impacts set on "kill". Then being on the left side, you know that somewhere in the car's life, someone did a lot of ugga duggas before they remembered it was a left hand thread.

 

[Gerald Morris]

Looks to me to be a confluence of issues added together that led to this:

Most assuredly.

50+ years of use (& possible abuse), especially with drum brakes (lots of heat/cool cycles)

Most significant factor.

Steel belted tires as opposed to the bias ply these were designed for

Implying the superior lateral traction of radials pulling on the wheel assembly. Sure.

Bad roads

SECOND GREATEST FACTOR, or, greatest. I drove on the factory suspension from December 2021 until this May, when I finally replaced everything.

And you mentioned your alignment isn't top notch

True enough. I'm correcting THAT now, as much as I can in this horrid, torrid environment. This morning, I measured and marked the slab, then checked the camber. Camber turned out NEGATIVE on both sides, so I have some cam bolt twisting this evening, or, better yet, early EARLY tomorrow, like, 02:30 or so.... So much for the old marks. I expected this. The driver side, which had the failed rim, is worse than the passenger side. I'll hang Gertrude back in the air for this first pass at twisting those cams over. I want her bow-legged, NOT pigeon-toed! Easier to set the toe-in at a first approximation this way too. THEN, I'll set her down, see how she stands, and begin correcting her.

Nice thing about disc brakes is their ability to shed heat, which is why they don't suffer from brake fade (as much).

Amazingly enough, my mesothelioma brake shoes have stopped these old hulks fairly well. A disc radiates heat more readily than a cylinder of course, which is what a brake drum is, THOUGH, the drum offers greater surface area to radiate from!

And since the front brakes do most of the work, it stands to reason the front brakes get hotter. Anything bolted to the brake drums (like the rims) are going to get hot too.

Qua erat demonstrandum.

You mentioned you had just dropped off the kid at school. That implies 20 mph school zones, i.e. you were riding the brakes, ergo HEAT!

You've gone over the Assume Line here bro. 1.) It's summer school, like, fr 17:30-18:30 at a golf course. 2.) NO SCHOOL ZONE IN FORCE ANYWHERE IN TOWN NOW! 3.) My cruising speed averages around 45 mph on this particular route. There was NO INORDINATE braking on this run, though, having a school marm wife who doesn't drive, I had to take her to and fro work 5 days weekly during the regular school year. My children sensibly stay home and use their laptops for remote, city school distric instruction during the regular semesters.

Factor in over 5 decades of repeated heat cycles, steel belted tires that transmit more harsh vibrations than the original bias ply tires would have absorbed, rough roads AND an off kilter alignment providing additional stress, it all adds up to a worse case scenario.

Yes, I suspect the variables you've mentioned all sum as described, plus the fact that the car had been last driven in Douglas, AZ, by an aspiring low-rider who hot-rodded the original engine into a useless state, as I recorded the Fall I bought the car. I thank my God and St. Joe I had a GOOD 383 still in the wrecked '66 Newport! It still propels Gertrude with alacrity on highways and byways alike. Douglas has bumpkin trails which make the barrios here appear Civilized. The old ball joints admitted flat blade screw-drivers when I removed them a few weeks ago, but ALL THAT OLD IRON IS OFF THE CAR NOW!

It sounds like your guardian angel was looking out for you, holding out until after your kid was safely delivered to school, and your benevolent demon struck before you achieved highway speeds.

Yes, this is precisely what I surmise. St. Joe intercedes for this old junky engineer quite a bit too.

You got lucky. Buy a lotto ticket! Take your winnings and upgrade to front disc brakes, new rims and rubber.

NEVER! I refuse to set the evil example of voluntary, retrogressive Poor Taxes. I also refuse to gamble, and strongly discourage my children from such thinking.

If I convert to a disc brake system, it will be composed of the elements which are on our '83 D150. FWIW, those actually are identical to the Formal C body brakes. Once I learned that it IS possible to provide enough "throw" to a disc brake system with a muscle powered master cylinder, as our '83 Miser so efficiently manages, my opposition to retrofitting for disc brakes lost its greatest plank; power brake requirement! THIS NEITHER MYSELF OR MY WIFE WILL ABIDE! I've had too many engines die in motion with power brake systems gone to ever permit this ****. If I can't brake with my quadriceps, I'll quit driving. Maybe around my 93rd birthday that....

You never mentioned if the fender took damage, but you did mention it cut the tire when it came off.

No damage at all. No pics. Again, I had not yet got over 30 mph, and when the **** started, I slowed down. Thus, when the rim broke off the central hub disk, the relative velocities were still matched, and the bottom corner of the fender just neatly clipped through the sidewalls.

Any pics of that? You know, so your C-Body buddies can offer prayers of praise and gratitude to the Great White Spirit In The Sky for looking out for folks like us.

Oh yes, I offered extra prayers on the behalf of the young (Millennial) hippy who helped out with me jacking the car up off the asphalt. His name was Joseph. Go figure.

p.s. Happy Father's Day

Benedicte.

 

[Gerald Morris]

I think I see a possible cause for this happening. Looking at the lug hole, you can see it's been overtightened to the point of distorting the hole. I'll bet that the lugnuts were bottoming out and not holding the wheel. That lets it move around a little, and the wheel would flex. Once it starts flex and moving around, the weakest point could start cracking.

I concur, wholly here! I take care to use a torque wrench on my lugnuts, but as mentioned in several other posts, the car had been abused by an idiot residing in Douglas, AZ before it was parked in that barn.

When the wheel center is stamped, the points that are stretched are the thinnest and the most likely to break.

Yes. These damned old rims have been used and abused plenty. I think the Quantum Camel's Back Breaker was rolling w negative camber this past week, even if for short, slow trips. I checked camber this morning, and plan to twist my cam bolts hard over tomorrow morning. As expected, the old settings proved useless after installing all the new parts. It was simply a starting point.

That's my theory anyway.

Your theory was induced from physical evidence presented to you. Thus it ever IS with GOOD theories! I agree its the best, most probable explanation of the event, and thank you for it. I know good and well that the lugnuts had to be carefully aligned with the stud holes to get them to tighten all the way down, as this is what I have had to do with them all. It's certainly time to retire these rims.

Overtightening has always been a problem as the guys in the tire shops always had the impacts set on "kill".

You can see the results of decades of abuse on mine. I also recommend that folks periodically chase out their stud threads and replace any damaged lugnuts which re-tapping can't chase out clean, using a RETHREAD TAP! Then, use a torque wrench. I had just bought new rubber for that damned rim too, and the other front one. That which failed HAD BEEN the spare, after a tire rotation I did last year.....

Then being on the left side, you know that somewhere in the car's life, someone did a lot of ugga duggas before they remembered it was a left hand thread.

Amazingly enough, BEFORE I CHANGED THAT HUB, the old L studs were all in excellent condition. I still have them, in the hub that went on the factory spindle. I swapped in my '66 hubs, with the backing plates and brake shoes, cylinders all, because those were in much better shape than the cheap Break Masturbator crap the former owner had put on. I like having all right-hand thread studs, just to reduce likelyhood of Ugga-Dugga-ooga-boogah! UNGA BUNGA BUNGA! occurrances. It took me about 30 seconds when I first got the car before I looked for the "L" myself.

 

[57fury440]

Wow! At 77 years old, I have never seen anything like that. I have seen them where the wheel rips off around the lug nut, but never the whole center. Thankfully you were not hurt. Big_Johns comments make sense. Possibly the wheel was not tight because of the abuse from the previous owner.

 

[Gerald Morris]

Wow! At 77 years old, I have never seen anything like that. I have seen them where the wheel rips off around the lug nut, but never the whole center. Thankfully you were not hurt. Big_Johns comments make sense. Possibly the wheel was not tight because of the abuse from the previous owner.

I reckon. Previous owner(S) and tire shop buckaroos. I just had changed that rubber too. Still, I torqued that damn thing on myself, but alas, the damage was done. I'll look over the rally rims closely before committing to them. I have two old mags fr Mathilda still free also.

 

[Jakter]

Mounting Radial Tires on Classic-Vehicle Rims

Really not a mystery.
It's been discussed for years in many publications of the possibility of it happening.

 

[Gerald Morris]

My Last Word on THIS little disaster: This morning, I got up at the dawn's Earliest light, got my work overalls on, and did a rough estimate of camber, which proved negative on both wheels. I cranked the cam bolts hard over, out in the front, in in the rear, which improved camber SOME. I then measuredd toe-in. This proved HORRIBLE, with NEARLY 1.25" IN!!! I think we now know what external stimulus precipitated the slide-hammer effect with the lugs and studs, which Big John SOOO RIGHTLY induced. Once I'd done all I could with camber, I set the toe in to exactly 1/8" as per the FSM specification. Since ambient temperature here reached 105 F by 1100 this morning, I opted to postpone a test drive until nightfall, or pre-dawn tomorrow.

The VERY sub-optimal alignment arose from my having started with the OLD cam bolt and tie rod settings and dimensions, which proved worse than I expected. But since I have another thread more properly devoted to the front suspension overhaul in toto, I now will leave this sub-topic and return to the main thread.

 

[Just Carbs]

My 60,s cars didn't start throwing hubcaps until they got radials.

 

[73Coupe]

I'd say that's quite the clean break!

Send that wheel and hub section over to Pakistan and I'm sure someone would weld it right up just like new (as seen in many YooToob videos with similar questionable repairs made in the dirt)....lol

I also noticed the wallowed-out lug holes that @Big_John pointed out. I have the same (actually worse) situation on my Chevy's OEM wheels that I've been quietly concerned about. This may get my rear in gear to get new wheels for that car asap.

 

[fury fan]

FWIW - I have seen such a failure once before, in my childhood. Was on a homemade farm wagon that used an axle from a pickup truck (and probably no springs, although I really don't remember that part). My uncle was hauling logs with it on a PA mountaintop, on a rough trail with lots of rocks, ruts, and side-loading. Somehow he noticed the wheel starting to tear the lugnut area out before it totally came off. I suspect that day wasn't the one that broke it - it was every day prior to that.

 

[Gerald Morris]

I'd say that's quite the clean break!

Send that wheel and hub section over to Pakistan and I'm sure someone would weld it right up just like new (as seen in many YooToob videos with similar questionable repairs made in the dirt)....lol

**** Hoss, I can find half a dozen hack welders of that ilk within a 1 mi. radius of my dwelling. Remember, I live in Occupied Mexico.

I also noticed the wallowed-out lug holes that @Big_John pointed out. I have the same (actually worse) situation on my Chevy's OEM wheels that I've been quietly concerned about. This may get my rear in gear to get new wheels for that car asap.

I earnestly recommend you hasten to that bro. Yes, when I first put this car on the street w my own petrol, I'd seen those holes and bought 13/16" lugs to provide a little more surface area to restrain those ****** out holes. That likely bought us the near 4 yrs use we got from them. I've considered washers also, and likely WILL get some, as making the rally rims ready will take work and $$.... I have a 15" spare now, which I pray I won't need. No out-of-town runs until Trudi gets new boots!

 

[Gerald Morris]

FWIW - I have seen such a failure once before, in my childhood. Was on a homemade farm wagon that used an axle from a pickup truck (and probably no springs, although I really don't remember that part). My uncle was hauling logs with it on a PA mountaintop, on a rough trail with lots of rocks, ruts, and side-loading. Somehow he noticed the wheel starting to tear the lugnut area out before it totally came off. I suspect that day wasn't the one that broke it - it was every day prior to that.

Yep! After I'd measured that cocked toe-in this morning, I'm pretty SURE that made the Quantum Straw, as the right wheel was cocked over more than the left, so that damned car was being pushed left. I'll take her out tonight or early EARRRRRLY tomorrow, it still being 107F as sundown draws nigh, for a test. I'll be double damned if I ever put a front end on the tarmac again blindly trusting to old settings!

 

[Just Carbs]

**** Hoss, I can find half a dozen hack welders of that ilk within a 1 mi. radius of my dwelling. Remember, I live in Occupied Mexico.



I earnestly recommend you hasten to that bro. Yes, when I first put this car on the street w my own petrol, I'd seen those holes and bought 13/16" lugs to provide a little more surface area to restrain those ****** out holes. That likely bought us the near 4 yrs use we got from them. I've considered washers also, and likely WILL get some, as making the rally rims ready will take work and $$.... I have a 15" spare now, which I pray I won't need. No out-of-town runs until Trudi gets new boots!

A lot of 1-ton dually trucks used tow plates per the manufacturer. You know, the ring plate that goes around the wheel under the nuts to prevent the nut from pulling through with a big load in the bed or on the goose neck hitch, or some tow trucks.
But that ring, or washers ain't going to help your problem.

 

[Gerald Morris]

A lot of 1-ton dually trucks used tow plates per the manufacturer. You know, the ring plate that goes around the wheel under the nuts to prevent the nut from pulling through with a big load in the bed or on the goose neck hitch, or some tow trucks.
But that ring, or washers ain't going to help your problem.

I concur. New rims really are the only thing for it. I'd thought of the "tow plate" option already, but, as you've observed, that really won't do much for fukt-over old wheels. 225/60R15s for the front, maybe 225/70s for the rear, or 60s all around. I don't want to have to change my speedo pinion gear, liking how nice that little red one I installed works w what's been on there. I'll do my arithmetic for 15 inch rims, and see how close I can match the 215/75R14s on there...

 

[73Coupe]

**** Hoss, I can find half a dozen hack welders of that ilk within a 1 mi. radius of my dwelling. Remember, I live in Occupied Mexico.

 

[edbods]

"police car" rims were the solution

Whew. Got worried thinking that my police wheels might come apart like Mr Morris's wheel.