Over Heating Issues

SixtySixFury3

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Hello,


Here are the details, all are new:


  • 383 with forged rotating parts converted to Roller Motor
  • Howard HYDRAULIC ROLLER BIG MAMA RATTLER Lift: .530 / .530, Duration @ .050: 235 / 243, Centerline: 103. Lob Sep 110
  • Alloy works 4-core with two fans.
  • MSD Pro Billet
  • Edelbrock RPM Performer
  • Holley Brawler 750
  • Tuff Stuff Performance Supercool Water Pump (high volume)
  • 185 Thermostat
  • Dice Converter 3200 Stall
  • 3.91 Diff
  • Initial timing is 23 total is 38.
  • 1.1 Rad cap


After getting all this stuff done, I can’t figure out why it’s running hot, it will climb to 220+, so I shut it down if it gets past that.

My guess is that the Alternator isn’t enough to handle both electric fans, so they aren’t running at their full speed, or I have an air pocket in my coolant. I can’t imagine anything else. The 516 heads are all good.



Any insight would be appreciated.
 
What are you seeking to accomplish with this motor? Is it getting hot running down the road at 60mph or in traffic/stagin lanes?

First thing that struck me when I read the specs is that there are some mis-matched parts in that engine. Too much cam, a decent intake, with a decent carb, sitting on STOCK heads. Even if they have 2.08/1.74 valves, they are still stock ports.

A 3200rpm converter will build some extra heat, due to its looseness, but the factory Chrysler service manual gives the stall speed ranges for 1978 Chrysler V-8s, some of which stall that high with a stock/production converter in them. A 3.91 rear axle is good, but turning what size tires?

What width radiator? Obviously, the existing 4-core aluminum radiator is not working as well as it should, for some reason. Just because it is "4 core" and "aluminum" does not mean it will cool well due to the different fin densities which can exist. Lots or fewer.

Another reason could be the "high volume" water pump which is probably running coolant through the system too fast for it to evacuate (to the radiator) heat from the engine. Then what coolant gets to the radiator, at whatever velocity is rushed through the radiator before enough heat can be dissipated (by the cyclone-speed fans) before it gets back to the water pump.

The other thing I see is too much initial timing, although the total of 38 degrees BTDC total is good. Over-advanced timing can cause hotter running, no matter the thermostat's rated temperature. Have you had the car on a chassis dyno to check "road load" air/fuel ratio of about 14.0? Over-advanced timing can effectively lean the mixture, from what I learned years ago.

At night, when the fans deploy, do the headlights dim as they are pulling so much juice? At about 1500 engine rpms, when the alternator output starts to increase? Remember, if the fans are pulling that much juice, that is limiting the amount of voltage than can run the ignition system and electric fuel pump, which CAN affect engine performance. What alternator is on the motor AND have you done the ammeter bypass as chronicled in here by @cbarge?

185 degree F thermostat? Chrysler used that temp OEM on B/RB engines in 1972, but all of the replacements were 180 degree F items. Is it a "Robert Shaw" style now sold by Mr. Gasket or a normal replacement part?

Lastly, 220 degrees F is NOT hot, considering that coolant boils with a 16psi radiator cap at about 260 degrees F, that atf starts to degrade at 290 degrees F, and motor oil (depending upon the brand) starts to degrade a good bit past that.

Is 220 hot compared to 180, sure it is. I, too, start to get a bit worried when the heat gauge needle gets past the center mark, but nothing is being hurt at that temperature. The related thing is that when you stop the engine at that temperature, a "heat soak" happens where the coolant can't move and absorbs all of the heat that is in the cyl block assy, which means that it can rise to closer to 260 degrees F as it sits there, even if the fans are cooling the radiator.

Although, to me, I see mis-matched parts, the things which can be done quick and easy are to put tine base timing down to 15 degrees BTDC, making sure the mechanical advance is completed by about 2000rpm and still hits the current 38 degrees figure. Then get the car on a chassis dyno and do a road load air/fuel ratio check to see where things are. Or with a quality air/fuel ratio function on a diagnostic machine, take the engine to about 2500rpm in "P" to do the check. Again, aim for 14.0 air/fuel ratio "at cruise". If you do have access to a chassis dyno, you can also load the engine to watch the AFR change with load until 5" Hg is reached under load (which checks for the power valve opening and its affect on the AFR).

That will be the cheapest and easiest things to check/adjust/verify without spending a lot of money changing parts.

Respectfully,
CBODY67
 
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CBODY67,

I appreciate all the information, I will definitely take a pragmatic approach to the issues I can deal with in my garage.

What are you seeking to accomplish with this motor? That’s the proverbial question, isn’t it? At this point, I have it where I want and yes, I will eventually get to adding aluminum heads. I have been chipping away at this. I’m trying to get the most out of the motor within reason. I went with the 3200 stall to accommodate that cam. It really helped with the drivability and curb idle speed.

Is it getting hot running down the road at 60mph or in traffic/staging lanes? Getting hot in city traffic, I do not dare take it on the freeways in Southern California.
IMG_0577.jpg
IMG_1099.jpg

What size tires? I have 20” Racelines in the back about 26” in overall height. Switching to 15x7’s all the way around. I like the classic look much better, the wheels that are on it now came with the car.

Dyno? Dyno will have to wait, it’s $1000.00 out here for a chassis dyno.

What width radiator? 26”

At night, when the fans deploy, do the headlights dim as they are pulling so much juice? Don’t know, I typically don’t drive it at night, and I swapped it for an LED lights.

Ammeter bypass as chronicled here by @cbarge? No.

185-degree F thermostat? Yes.



I do believe a higher amp Alternator (140A) will definitely help. I can start it up and let it idle for a long time in my garage. However, when I take it out on a warm or hot day, with the fans running and the stereo going, it draws too much off that little stock alternator. And the fact that all that heat builds up only derates the electrical output of that alternator, could actually be significant.

I'll take you up on dropping my initial timing to 15-18, and see how that goes. Then when I swap out that Alternator, I’ll bump it up and see if it does the same thing. I’ll post the results.

I'll tell you what, that old car sure can get up and go.
 
Are you running a fan shroud? Some shrouds work better than others. Could you post a pic or two of it .
 
CBODY67,

I appreciate all the information, I will definitely take a pragmatic approach to the issues I can deal with in my garage.

What are you seeking to accomplish with this motor? That’s the proverbial question, isn’t it? At this point, I have it where I want and yes, I will eventually get to adding aluminum heads. I have been chipping away at this. I’m trying to get the most out of the motor within reason. I went with the 3200 stall to accommodate that cam. It really helped with the drivability and curb idle speed.

Is it getting hot running down the road at 60mph or in traffic/staging lanes? Getting hot in city traffic, I do not dare take it on the freeways in Southern California.
View attachment 620523View attachment 620524
What size tires? I have 20” Racelines in the back about 26” in overall height. Switching to 15x7’s all the way around. I like the classic look much better, the wheels that are on it now came with the car.

Dyno? Dyno will have to wait, it’s $1000.00 out here for a chassis dyno.

What width radiator? 26”

At night, when the fans deploy, do the headlights dim as they are pulling so much juice? Don’t know, I typically don’t drive it at night, and I swapped it for an LED lights.

Ammeter bypass as chronicled here by @cbarge? No.

185-degree F thermostat? Yes.



I do believe a higher amp Alternator (140A) will definitely help. I can start it up and let it idle for a long time in my garage. However, when I take it out on a warm or hot day, with the fans running and the stereo going, it draws too much off that little stock alternator. And the fact that all that heat builds up only derates the electrical output of that alternator, could actually be significant.

I'll take you up on dropping my initial timing to 15-18, and see how that goes. Then when I swap out that Alternator, I’ll bump it up and see if it does the same thing. I’ll post the results.

I'll tell you what, that old car sure can get up and go.
Wow that’s a beautiful car.
 
My gut is telling me your current alternator is not giving those fans enough juice to spin those fans very fast. Based on my recent education on this topic, those two fans alone likely draw more amps than a stock alternator can put out.

The upgraded alternator should help, but please, please, please do the ammeter by pass too. Your car is way to good looking to have burn up on the side of the road.
 
My gut is telling me your current alternator is not giving those fans enough juice to spin those fans very fast. Based on my recent education on this topic, those two fans alone likely draw more amps than a stock alternator can put out.

The upgraded alternator should help, but please, please, please do the ammeter by pass too. Your car is way to good looking to have burn up on the side of the road.
Yep, that has to happen, I watched a few videos about it.
 
in the line of start with the easiest thing first...try another thermostat...my camper was running hot so i swapped thermostats...and it got worse...my actual problem was a bad fan switch( which i found after the thermostat swap)... pulled thermostat back out and boiled it with another one and it opened way hotter than the other...both new 180 Motorads which supply every parts house so its not like i had a choice (the edelbrock/ robert shaw wont fit my application but i'd recomend it to you)....
 
Two things, what is the temperature the fan's thermostat set at? It should be adjustable.

Other thing is that those slots in the back of the shroud mean that the bulk if the air is going out through the fans themselves, which might mean the slots might need to be enlarged to get more air through the radiator before the fans activate. Which also might mean they would be needed less as the car moves down the road.

What about the rubber flap that is supposed to be on the bottom of the forward area of the hood? As the car was repainted (very nicely, I might add, I always liked that color on those Furys), it might have been removed. Available in repro, as "yoke seal". It keeps air from going above the radiator, forcing the bulk of the air into the radiator instead.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 
Hello,


Here are the details, all are new:


  • 383 with forged rotating parts converted to Roller Motor
  • Howard HYDRAULIC ROLLER BIG MAMA RATTLER Lift: .530 / .530, Duration @ .050: 235 / 243, Centerline: 103. Lob Sep 110
  • Alloy works 4-core with two fans.
  • MSD Pro Billet
  • Edelbrock RPM Performer
  • Holley Brawler 750
  • Tuff Stuff Performance Supercool Water Pump (high volume)
  • 185 Thermostat
  • Dice Converter 3200 Stall
  • 3.91 Diff
  • Initial timing is 23 total is 38.
  • 1.1 Rad cap


After getting all this stuff done, I can’t figure out why it’s running hot, it will climb to 220+, so I shut it down if it gets past that.

My guess is that the Alternator isn’t enough to handle both electric fans, so they aren’t running at their full speed, or I have an air pocket in my coolant. I can’t imagine anything else. The 516 heads are all good.



Any insight would be appreciated.
Simple, your running a 22 1/2" X 18 1/2" in front of a big block! What the hell was Mopar thinking? I did the same thing as suggestions above and more on my 65 SF; put in a Griffin Radiator (which was sold as OEM specifications - untrue and a big mistake) added a serpentine set up, changed to a 140 amp alternator, put in a Derale 17" pull electric fan and a 12" push fan. Car still ran hot both at red lights and on the highway (220-235) shooting anti-freeze all over when I shut the engine off. Ordered a second Derale 17" fan (can't buy the shroud separate and the fans themselves are different thickness even though the same fan) just to get the shroud and between the two fans, re-manufactured both the first fan and the shroud so the shroud could be installed (was working with 3/8" clearance between the pull fan and water pump pulley). Small improvement but still runs hot, in Phoenix.

At a red light, you can't move enough air with the fans through the small radiator, on the freeway, the two fans actually prevent enough air from moving through the small radiator. Went to a local car show to look at 64-67 Mopars to see what their experiences were and gained the following insights: 1) run a stock fan set up but add a shroud (have a friend who is running a 440 in a 65 SF with the stock fan and added a shroud and he does not have a problem) and, 2) re-manufacture the the radiator mounting frame, major, to accommodate a 26" to 28, to 30" radiator OR, 3) take the serpentine belt out, put it back to original with the fan and add a shroud BUT I put a/c in during restoration so the eliminates that option! Everything else that I had done was time consuming, frustrating and expensive.

Bottom line, I don't drive the car when it is 90 degrees or above, com'on winter, and the solution to my problem would be to tear the front of the car apart, just completed a full restoration, and re-manufacture the radiator mount bracket to accommodate a larger radiator, which is not happening, or ship the car, and myself, up to my home state of North Dakota where the temperatures aren't so insane. I have the exact same set up, down to a "T," without a shroud on my 66 GTO. It never gets above 200 degrees and usually runs 185 under the same conditions; difference is the size of the radiator while at the same time, Pontiac's have a reputation of running hot. The suggestions herein are good but I know what did not work for me and I spent a lot of time and money in the process. Solution; Bigger Radiator, Stock Fan, add a Shroud and POOFF, problem goes away!
 
Hello,


Here are the details, all are new:


  • 383 with forged rotating parts converted to Roller Motor
  • Howard HYDRAULIC ROLLER BIG MAMA RATTLER Lift: .530 / .530, Duration @ .050: 235 / 243, Centerline: 103. Lob Sep 110
  • Alloy works 4-core with two fans.
  • MSD Pro Billet
  • Edelbrock RPM Performer
  • Holley Brawler 750
  • Tuff Stuff Performance Supercool Water Pump (high volume)
  • 185 Thermostat
  • Dice Converter 3200 Stall
  • 3.91 Diff
  • Initial timing is 23 total is 38.
  • 1.1 Rad cap


After getting all this stuff done, I can’t figure out why it’s running hot, it will climb to 220+, so I shut it down if it gets past that.

My guess is that the Alternator isn’t enough to handle both electric fans, so they aren’t running at their full speed, or I have an air pocket in my coolant. I can’t imagine anything else. The 516 heads are all good.



Any insight would be appreciated.
Greetings, I too, am going through this nightmare. I have read everyone's posts and they all seem to be spot on. I had read somewhere that when you have a high volume water pump, you also need a high volume T-Stat otherwise the "stock" restriction and flow will remain the same. So, I got a high volume T-Stat and it got me down from 205 deg. to 190 deg. (FlowKooler #330-180) or a modified version of this from SpeedWay Motors. Speedway 180 Degree High Flow Thermostat . They somehow "go over" the FlowKooler T-Stat and make sure it works. (see their website). As for the alternator, DEFINITELY go with a Powermaster alternator. (made in the once great USA in Illinois) I have an 125 amp but I think you can choose other amperage versions. Now that fall kicked in swiftly in the Midwest, I cannot put all this stuff to the "test" of a 95 deg. summer day. (Oh well). I also spoke with the owner of GlenRay Radiators (very cool guy) who told me not to "re-invent the wheel" and do what Mother Mopar originally did and that was a correct stock radiator application with a mechanical fan and shroud. In essence, I CANNOT find a stock 62-65 OEM Mopar radiator for my '62 Polara eventhough the 2 piece steel shrouds are re-popped and are available. So, I'm like you with an aluminum radiator and had a welder "fit" an aluminum shroud on it. I have a single 16" Spale fan on mine and I probably have a 1/8" clearance between the fan and the water pump pulley bolts. I COULD have used some mushroom head bolts for more clearance but didn't think about it until afterwards. BTW, My 16" fan has a 10 AMP fuse. What are yours? THAT way you can guesstimate how many amps the fans are drawing when running to help you figure out what higher alternator you need or have that info and call Powermaster and have a talk. Good luck, It's been very frustrating with this problem. My car was down for 3 months and I missed a lot of car shows. Zzzzzzzzz.
 
The Speedway high-volume thermostat referenced is what we term "Robert Shaw" thermostat as that is who originally built them for Chrysler. After Chrysler went to a normal thermostat in about the middle 1970s, when the Robert Shaw company got out of the car parts business or whatever, everybody had the normal thermostats to deal with for many years. Then I saw some again at O'Reillys under the "Mr. Gasket" brand and seems like Edelbrock later started to sell them too.

A thermostat is also a "flow restrictor" to the system, which is what the outer ring combined with the inner structure serves as. Plus the temperature regulation functions. Some racers forego a thermostat all together in favor of a big flat washer a big hole in the center. The diameter of the hole (which regulates flow) determines how hot their engine gets by the end of the race.

Neat that the Glen Ray operative basically said that the Chrysler cooling systems back then were pretty good in their cooling capacities! What I've been playing around with is the possibility of adapting a GM-style cross-flow radiator to replace the "332" radiator in my '70 Monaco 383. Just looking at the core sizes, the radiator for my '77 Camaro is pretty much the same size, just oriented horizontally than vertically. And they can be had in the '90s-style composite-construction radiators for a decent price. I know they cool well, too, as they are higher-efficiency, from my experiences putting one in the Camaro, replacing a 3-core Modine. Just need to fab some brackets to hold it and re-route the cooling lines. BTAIM

Thanks for the link!
CBODY67
 
I am having issues with my cooling on the 383 under power, after new radiator and hi flow pump. Soooo, have ordered a Mr Gasket 4366 which is 2.5 inch diameter. Will drill a 1/8 hole to aid in bleeding, which I am having trouble with when flushing.....but, we will see. Thanks for all on the high flow thermostat....had no idea.
 
I am having issues with my cooling on the 383 under power, after new radiator and hi flow pump. Soooo, have ordered a Mr Gasket 4366 which is 2.5 inch diameter. Will drill a 1/8 hole to aid in bleeding, which I am having trouble with when flushing.....but, we will see. Thanks for all on the high flow thermostat....had no idea.

That high flow RobertShaw thermostat probably is the single most decisive element in your cooling system at this point. I run only ORIGINAL RobertShaw thermostats now, after Mr. Gasket's knock-offs didn't quite measure up for me. If you can find one from FlowKooler, get it. $30 for a good thermostat is naught compared to $10k for an engine.

I think a 2 row 1" tube radiator will do you better for cooling also, though be WARY of the quality of the aluminum in them. Not all aluminum radiators are equally well made, and it starts with low grade metal or not. I've had a couple, and I certainly WON'T buy the stuff from Cold Case again. I probably will wind up re-coring one of my venerable 2524984 radiators instead, most likely with U.S. Radiator's high efficiency 3 row copper core, though I MIGHT have to get one more aluminum one from Chicago next spring, to tide us over if the old one I'm now running starts leaking too badly. Time and physics will tell.

I run in urban traffic in Tucson, AZ during the summers, and design my cooling system for that torture. With a 22 inch wide aperture, I have to optimize everything, and pretty well have at this point.

One LAST thing: get a separate transmission cooler and make SURE to place it upline from the one on your radiator! I settled on a B&M's stacked plate one for ~$100, but don't see it sold under their name any longer, though I see one VERY similar;

Flex-a-lite 400008 Flex-A-Lite Stacked Plate Transmission Coolers | Summit Racing


Get this, stick it in front of your radiator down low, where the fans can draw air through it as well as your radiator, and you should chill out. Transmissions normally dump their heat into your radiator, which really is a piss poor solution for engine and tranny alike. During the past record breaking summer, the only time I saw temperature rise over 200 was when the old radiator sprang a leak on the highway. I used some stop-leak, and its holding nicely for now. The rest of the time: even on 105+ days, Gertrude stays between 180-190F.
 
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My current issue is not the thermo temp....because when hot, water is flowing as measured by radiator temps. And, when under high load the temps climb to now about 190 or more. Am hoping the high flow thermo that I knew nothing about will help that condition. I will look for the FlowKooler, as have found a lot of issues with poor quality stuff over recent years. And yes, many say that the 190 something is fine, BUT, when you have higher temps, and a hot and loaded transmission that is dumping heat somewhere, it all adds to higher temps here. I want it to stay around 180 or even less under these conditions, so that when stressed, it wont get out of hand. Just me. Good points, thanks
 
What you desire to keep everything at 180 degrees F "under load" might not happen to the degree you might like. Having a reserve in cooling capacity is always good, though. Consider that modern production cars and trucks run at 200 degrees F at all times with no issues. ATF does not start to degrade until about 290 degrees F (for the non-syn types). The base stocks of oils are much better now than when the cars were designed. Probably close to equal to what the earlier syn oils were back then (other than in artic temperature conditions).

Could you please define "under load" for us? Are we talking going up a hill in Colorado, down a hill in Colorado (which heats the transmission more than suspected due to fluid turbulence in the torque converter), high speed cruising with a 25' house trailer with a 2.76 rear axle ratio "against the wind", or something else?

The other side of the deal is that when the cars were being validated for production, the OEMs do "destructive testing" to see what fails and does not. Which can include operating temperature-related issues. Usually much worse than 5% of their customers might ever consider doing (for whatever reason). One of the reasons is so that warranty administrators can "keep the customers honest" when an unexplained failure might occur on an under-warranty vehicle. I have seen some TSBs with graphic pictures of such failures and what they were attributed to, what is coverable and what is not.

Take care,
CBODY67
 
My current issue is not the thermo temp....because when hot, water is flowing as measured by radiator temps. And, when under high load the temps climb to now about 190 or more. Am hoping the high flow thermo that I knew nothing about will help that condition. I will look for the FlowKooler, as have found a lot of issues with poor quality stuff over recent years. And yes, many say that the 190 something is fine, BUT, when you have higher temps, and a hot and loaded transmission that is dumping heat somewhere, it all adds to higher temps here. I want it to stay around 180 or even less under these conditions, so that when stressed, it wont get out of hand. Just me. Good points, thanks
If your running 190 degrees, YOU HAVE NOT GOT A PROBLEM!
 
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