Over Heating Issues

62maxx said:
Greetings, I too, am going through this nightmare. I have read everyone's posts and they all seem to be spot on. I had read somewhere that when you have a high volume water pump, you also need a high volume T-Stat otherwise the "stock" restriction and flow will remain the same. So, I got a high volume T-Stat and it got me down from 205 deg. to 190 deg. (FlowKooler #330-180) or a modified version of this from SpeedWay Motors. Speedway 180 Degree High Flow Thermostat . They somehow "go over" the FlowKooler T-Stat and make sure it works. (see their website). As for the alternator, DEFINITELY go with a Powermaster alternator. (made in the once great USA in Illinois) I have an 125 amp but I think you can choose other amperage versions. Now that fall kicked in swiftly in the Midwest, I cannot put all this stuff to the "test" of a 95 deg. summer day. (Oh well). I also spoke with the owner of GlenRay Radiators (very cool guy) who told me not to "re-invent the wheel" and do what Mother Mopar originally did and that was a correct stock radiator application with a mechanical fan and shroud. In essence, I CANNOT find a stock 62-65 OEM Mopar radiator for my '62 Polara eventhough the 2 piece steel shrouds are re-popped and are available. So, I'm like you with an aluminum radiator and had a welder "fit" an aluminum shroud on it. I have a single 16" Spale fan on mine and I probably have a 1/8" clearance between the fan and the water pump pulley bolts. I COULD have used some mushroom head bolts for more clearance but didn't think about it until afterwards. BTW, My 16" fan has a 10 AMP fuse. What are yours? THAT way you can guesstimate how many amps the fans are drawing when running to help you figure out what higher alternator you need or have that info and call Powermaster and have a talk. Good luck, It's been very frustrating with this problem. My car was down for 3 months and I missed a lot of car shows. Zzzzzzzzz.
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I'll have my 165A one-wire Powermaster here by Tuesday. When I install it, I'll bypass the ammeter and fire it up. I am very confident that it will do the trick.

I ran it this weekend, it was definitely hot out here. I disconnected the amps to my stereo to see what would happen, and sure enough, the car never budged past 200, that tells me that the only thing pulling current were the the fans and the ignition system.

The current alternator was just enough to handle the load so the fans were running full speed, they seemed louder too.

This is it idling in my shop.

 
I dont disagree with anything said above....you guys are right. These days here in virginia are cooling, and I have not driven for an hour to really heat, and just want to be conservative. What I mean by load is running about five miles in second gear and slowing then pretty good acceleration up to about 60, then slow and repeat This will load both engine and trans to moderate extent for my testing. I am also seeing with the IR sensor that the water pump is running at the 190 plus and yet the top of the radiator below the hose is around 180......telling me maybe that the stinkin thermo is still not happy. I have one of the hi flow ones coming with hopes for a little better action when hot and with the hi flow pump now in place. I will also add the plastic shroud soon to the new radiator.....just slow and old. But, you are right, this is not the danger zone....just want more gooderer. I also forgot to mention that I am still running water, and with glycol, it will not cool quite as well.....and need it pretty soon here.
 
62maxx said:
Greetings, I too, am going through this nightmare. I have read everyone's posts and they all seem to be spot on. I had read somewhere that when you have a high volume water pump, you also need a high volume T-Stat otherwise the "stock" restriction and flow will remain the same. So, I got a high volume T-Stat and it got me down from 205 deg. to 190 deg. (FlowKooler #330-180) or a modified version of this from SpeedWay Motors. Speedway 180 Degree High Flow Thermostat . They somehow "go over" the FlowKooler T-Stat and make sure it works. (see their website). As for the alternator, DEFINITELY go with a Powermaster alternator. (made in the once great USA in Illinois) I have an 125 amp but I think you can choose other amperage versions. Now that fall kicked in swiftly in the Midwest, I cannot put all this stuff to the "test" of a 95 deg. summer day. (Oh well). I also spoke with the owner of GlenRay Radiators (very cool guy) who told me not to "re-invent the wheel" and do what Mother Mopar originally did and that was a correct stock radiator application with a mechanical fan and shroud. In essence, I CANNOT find a stock 62-65 OEM Mopar radiator for my '62 Polara eventhough the 2 piece steel shrouds are re-popped and are available. So, I'm like you with an aluminum radiator and had a welder "fit" an aluminum shroud on it. I have a single 16" Spale fan on mine and I probably have a 1/8" clearance between the fan and the water pump pulley bolts. I COULD have used some mushroom head bolts for more clearance but didn't think about it until afterwards. BTW, My 16" fan has a 10 AMP fuse. What are yours? THAT way you can guesstimate how many amps the fans are drawing when running to help you figure out what higher alternator you need or have that info and call Powermaster and have a talk. Good luck, It's been very frustrating with this problem. My car was down for 3 months and I missed a lot of car shows. Zzzzzzzzz.
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Just listened to your video and engine idling above.....wish I could make mine sound like that....great job.
 
66furys said:
Just listened to your video and engine idling above.....wish I could make mine sound like that....great job.
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It took me a while to get it to where it is. The one thing I do know is plenty of folks like the Fury, not just mine but the Fury in general.
This is what the stock version was like before it was built. Sounded like an old tired fishing boat.
 
Yeah, sounds like mine. But, encourages me to run a video and listen, which I will do. But, no doubt some good compression and a bit of cam works wonders. This is what I love about the Engine Master shows.....they help to figure out what works....but looks like your selection does.
 
SixtySixFury3 said:
I'll have my 165A one-wire Powermaster here by Tuesday. When I install it, I'll bypass the ammeter and fire it up. I am very confident that it will do the trick. ....
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Have you got suitably heavy wire for that 165A alternator? THIS can introduce some SERIOUS mischief if not handled properly. You will need at the very minimum #4 AWG directly from the alternator to your battery, though if I were doing this, I would seek #2 AWG. I too like plenty current to insure my one 280W pusher fan (at 14 VDC, 280W pulls 20A. I call it 25, to be safe.) and I want plenty current for my headlights, stereo amp and passenger cooling fans too, so I can RELATE on this need.

I advise you to run the heavy gauge charging wire along the front of your radiator yoke, out of the way of the wind either high or low. This minimizes the length of wire, which, in low voltage systems like mid-20th century cars, is overwhelmingly important. Be sure to increase the ampacity of your grounding lead to the engine block as well. If you don't make it the same thickness, go no less than one wire size, or 2 gauges less, to wit: if you run #2 AWG from the alt, your grounding lead CAN'T be any smallet than #4. You can ONLY de-rate the ground IFF* you also provide other grounding jumpers to the sheetmetal, such as your radiator yoke, the firewall et cetera. Given your situation, I say stick with the same size ground to the engine and be safe.

Fusible links still make a safe overcurrent protection, but at larger sized conductors, one will be using straight alloyed links in some sort of fuse body. I don't like breakers on the main charging conductor, as they're too apt to trip due to motor hysteresis and such. ANL fusebodies and fuses probably will serve you best here.

Run a suitably enhanced conductor up to your firewall for your dash, instrument panel and such too. You might avail yourself of a 4 or 6 circuit load center near the battery, then run #8 AWG from your starter relay to the ammeter, and attach BOTH lugs to a suitable lug off that. Use a grommet to go through the firewall here, and disconnect that little #14 gauge fusible link MaPar put on the bulkhead connector. Likewise, cap off or remove the old charging conductor, often as small as a #12 wire, that ran off the charging lead on a little 40 amp alternator. Even the 60 just used a 10 gauge wire! Maybe you will want to save these old wires, if removed carefully, as folks VALUE these old leads!

I hope you already prepared all this circuit work, and that you don't need to heed a jot of what I've typed here, but FAR too many folks will hop up their engines, and leave the wiring in the Victorian state the car rolled of the line with....

*IFF => IF and ONLY IF, mathematical shorthand
 
Gerald....a force of nature. Lemme see, in a single sentence.....straight alloyed links......motor hysteresis......and ANL fusebodies. I have been doing this a long time and I dont understand a word of what you just said. And, I am way too old to start over. Keep it up.
 
66furys said:
Gerald....a force of nature. Lemme see, in a single sentence.....straight alloyed links......motor hysteresis......and ANL fusebodies. I have been doing this a long time and I dont understand a word of what you just said. And, I am way too old to start over. Keep it up.
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Its cool. The alloyed fuse links are just that, fuse links alloyed of low temperature metals like lead, tin, antimony, mercury and such which will melt at very specific temperatures attained at exact power, caused by exact currents for given voltages, like, 12V, for example.

Motor hysteresis: magnetic and electrical current eddies, vortices and such brought on by rotating electrical fields applied to ferro-magnetic inductors. Think, little tornadoes of electrical current. These will trip breakers even when the current flow from source to ground isn't that high.

ANL fusebody: Modern type of fuse used extensively in automotive audio equipment. Dirt common really. Ecce:

Amazon product ASIN B01N2YEVCH
You might already be using one! :D
 
SixtySixFury3 said:
Hello,


Here are the details, all are new:


  • 383 with forged rotating parts converted to Roller Motor
  • Howard HYDRAULIC ROLLER BIG MAMA RATTLER Lift: .530 / .530, Duration @ .050: 235 / 243, Centerline: 103. Lob Sep 110
  • Alloy works 4-core with two fans.
  • MSD Pro Billet
  • Edelbrock RPM Performer
  • Holley Brawler 750
  • Tuff Stuff Performance Supercool Water Pump (high volume)
  • 185 Thermostat
  • Dice Converter 3200 Stall
  • 3.91 Diff
  • Initial timing is 23 total is 38.
  • 1.1 Rad cap


After getting all this stuff done, I can’t figure out why it’s running hot, it will climb to 220+, so I shut it down if it gets past that.

My guess is that the Alternator isn’t enough to handle both electric fans, so they aren’t running at their full speed, or I have an air pocket in my coolant. I can’t imagine anything else. The 516 heads are all good.



Any insight would be appreciated.
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I forgot to mention that the paint color on your car is AWESOME! I never saw that on a 66.
 
SixtySixFury3 said:
CBODY67,

I appreciate all the information, I will definitely take a pragmatic approach to the issues I can deal with in my garage.

What are you seeking to accomplish with this motor? That’s the proverbial question, isn’t it? At this point, I have it where I want and yes, I will eventually get to adding aluminum heads. I have been chipping away at this. I’m trying to get the most out of the motor within reason. I went with the 3200 stall to accommodate that cam. It really helped with the drivability and curb idle speed.

Is it getting hot running down the road at 60mph or in traffic/staging lanes? Getting hot in city traffic, I do not dare take it on the freeways in Southern California.
View attachment 620523View attachment 620524
What size tires? I have 20” Racelines in the back about 26” in overall height. Switching to 15x7’s all the way around. I like the classic look much better, the wheels that are on it now came with the car.

Dyno? Dyno will have to wait, it’s $1000.00 out here for a chassis dyno.

What width radiator? 26”

At night, when the fans deploy, do the headlights dim as they are pulling so much juice? Don’t know, I typically don’t drive it at night, and I swapped it for an LED lights.

Ammeter bypass as chronicled here by @cbarge? No.

185-degree F thermostat? Yes.



I do believe a higher amp Alternator (140A) will definitely help. I can start it up and let it idle for a long time in my garage. However, when I take it out on a warm or hot day, with the fans running and the stereo going, it draws too much off that little stock alternator. And the fact that all that heat builds up only derates the electrical output of that alternator, could actually be significant.

I'll take you up on dropping my initial timing to 15-18, and see how that goes. Then when I swap out that Alternator, I’ll bump it up and see if it does the same thing. I’ll post the results.

I'll tell you what, that old car sure can get up and go.
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Make sure to post Pics of the new wheels when they get put on. I agree with you and prefer a more classic look, not really into the big tire thing. What type of rims are you going with.
 
So, after days of waiting on the Mr Gasket 4366 order, it is still in stasis.....order received. So, with cold weather coming and me needing to finish up and add some glycol, I broke down and ordered the flowkooler thermostat, which has shipped within about four hours. So, now, I will fret over whether to open up the block drains and try to power flush the gunk.....another note for guidance.
 
66furys said:
So, after days of waiting on the Mr Gasket 4366 order, it is still in stasis.....order received. So, with cold weather coming and me needing to finish up and add some glycol, I broke down and ordered the flowkooler thermostat, which has shipped within about four hours. So, now, I will fret over whether to open up the block drains and try to power flush the gunk.....another note for guidance.
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Get a drain snake like the sort used for kitchen sinks and lavatories. Pop the rear most expansion plug on each side if not all of them, root out as much crap from the cooling jacket as possible. THEN, use rubber plugs to seal the jacket for now, fill the cooling system with a good flushing agent. If you dig the safety of brand name stuff, use Blue Devil's potion. A gallon of cleaning vinegar with distilled water does nicely also. Another good brand name potion is CLR. My wife likes it for janitorial uses too. A lot of your potion selection depends on what sort of deposits you have in that jacket. Save some samples from your core drilling operation with the drain snake and see what best dissolves them.

Use one of those nice flushing kits made by folks like Prestone. A garden hose can do wonders for removing the crap from your cooling system. Blast the stuff out with this, then open your rubber bungs, look inside, and if it all looks clean, declare Victory, then seal those expansion plug holes with some good brass plugs. You MIGHT want to keep the rubber bungs, or use the copper plugs with a set bolt to flatten it out if working near the engine mounts. Those two plugs are difficult to tap in when working under the engine! I use Indianhead shellac to seal my plugs, but many folks like RTV. The new 90 minute RTV, called "The Right Stuff" IS aptly named, and works as advertised.

I give any freshly acquired engine the thorough enemas I've described, and have worked these protocols out nicely over the past 7 years, and these methods help keep Gertrude's 1966 383 running at or just over 180 degrees regardless of weather or traffic. Do you know where your engine came from, or what the former owner(s) ran in the cooling system? Sometimes, solid samples can reveal MUCH regarding this stuff. I await your results! :)
 
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rkrochen said:
Make sure to post Pics of the new wheels when they get put on. I agree with you and prefer a more classic look, not really into the big tire thing. What type of rims are you going with.
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The Chrysler Police 15x8's all the way around.
 
Police 15x8??? Do they have the nubs to hold hubcaps on? If they are stamped internally "15x8", with no nubs, then they are Plymouth Kit Car wheels. If they are similar but with a high-metallic silver paint job, stamped "15x7" inside with no nubs, they are Dodge Magnum GT wheels.

Otherwise, the "police wheels" are 15x7s with nubs to hold hubcaps on and no special paint. That is what I remember from back then, from sales brochures and the parts books. I purchased about three sets of the Magnum GT wheels (one set for my '80 Newport) when they (plus the center caps, trim rings, and such) could be had "over the front counter" at the dealership for $200.00 a set of four. Duronig a Chrysler Factory Warehouse Clearance Sale in the 1980s.

Additionally, the wheel rim width is measured inside the bead, rather than on the outer edge.

Respectfully,
CBODY67
 
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