She’s ALIVE! (again?!) - Engine Troubleshooting

[Isaiah Estrada]

So a while back I finally got the New Yorker running!



Although it stayed running, I could tell it was running pretty rough - but any adjustments I tried making just made it really upset and so I decided to just let it run for the sake of the cam…

Still, I knew there were problems that needed to be addressed!!

For one, it was running RICH. I mean, it burned my eyes real bad to even be near that engine. Super hard to breathe (not good I know…) Also, my timing seemed to be REALLY off.

So I started back at square one. I removed ALL the plug wires and labeled them accordingly. Popped the cap off - and then set the engine to TDC on compression of cyl number 1. Next rotated the engine backwards until the little mark on the damper matched with the 10° BTDC mark on the timing tab. I confirmed the rotor was pointing at my number 1 mark that I made on the distributor body (which I made with the cap on to be fairly accurate.)

Snapped the cap back on, re-wired, and made EXTRA sure my firing order was the correct 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Before I even tried to fire the engine up, I wanted to be sure my number 1 spark plug would fire immediately… So I tried a new trick I learned from Thunderhead289 on YouTube. With one end of the #1 spark plug wire plugged into it’s spot on the cap (as it should be,) I had the other end hooked up to a spark plug - but not screwed into the head. Rather, I had the spark plug positioned near a ground connection that would allow the spark to arc across. With the ignition hot, I rotated the distributor body very slightly until I could see and hear the plug arcing. This way, I could physically SEE and know exactly where and when the spark plug would fire. Once I found that point, I tightened the distributor down just enough to where I could still make adjustments when I had the engine running.

With everything set up fairly close to where it should be, I added fuel and BOOM!! She lit off immediately. However, I noticed it was still running at a high RPM (1,200 +/-) Come to find out; not wiring up the electric choke and having the fast idle cam engaged doesn’t help… OOPS. Newbie mistake, yes I’m still learning. (Thanks Ross for the advice!!!)



Lit her off again and bam, she’s PURRING at 800 rpm. Now, when I checked my timing at 800 rpm I was reading 25 BTDC. After I saw this, I tried to back off the timing a little by spinning the dizzy counterclockwise and then the engine became real unhappy…

Thinking I may need to get a piston stop to see if my damper has spun at all and whether or not I’m possibly 10° off? Based on how it sounded and was running - I’d say my timing was close. I’m wondering if instead of 25 I was really at 15°?

I am using a dial back timing light. I moved the dial until the line on the damper was lining up with 0 (which is when the dial landed on 25.)

PS: the starter is not cranking slow because of the advance. I get about 3 good cranks out of it before it does this weird labored starting. I am running it from an external tank so I have to crank it a bit sometimes to pull fuel and by the time I get it to start the starter just gets tired. It’s old, and probably (most definitely) tired. I will be replacing it with a Dakota starter tomorrow.

 

[halifaxhops]

Definitely verify the balancer did not spin. Also never believe the advance on a analogue timing light. Digital yes.

 

[413]

This is a great place to do like I said in my other post. Try in on a good running car first. Turn dist both ways until engine starts to run bad then put in in between those 2 places. Your timing will be so close to correct it will be scary.

Are you sire you we’re on the #1 plug wire?

And how do you know your dial back timing light is working correctly?

What type of ignition do you have? Points, MSD, hot spark trick of the week?

It is usually high hydrocarbons that burns your eyes. They get high from incomplete combustion, timing off, or a lean condition like a vacuum leak. Or way to rich.

 

[Gerald Morris]

Definitely verify the balancer did not spin. Also never believe the advance on a analogue timing light. Digital yes.

WHICH digital timing light would you recommend? I use a Neolithic Penske/Sears light with my breaker points, and get pretty consistent results. I know where my TDC is, set the damper and distributor right on that, and then with a prayer to St. Joe, Patron of Mechanics, have used this old light to tune that engine for 5 years with good results. Be this as it may, IFF I can find a GOOD digital timing light, I would be happy to use it. I usually like my 45+ yr old tools mind you..... My Actron dwell meter, and a couple other analogue ones all read the same too, FWTW.

 

[halifaxhops]

Any digital is fine. Probem with the analogue is that the variable resistors values have changed over the years and or have dead spots. I have been burned alot by them.. I know of no one that will calibrate them either. Timing tape is what I use and a regular no variable timing light.

 

[Gerald Morris]

Any digital is fine. Probem with the analogue is that the variable resistors values have changed over the years and or have dead spots. I have been burned alot by them.. I know of no one that will calibrate them either. Timing tape is what I use and a regular no variable timing light.

I'm probably safe with the crude old timing light I use then, as there are NO variable resistors in that one. Admittedly, pots do wear out, especially if folks have spots they're more apt to use than others. I just had a neighbor give me a 1960s vintage Sun timing light, but the inductive pickup is toast, and unless I can match that impedance, it likely wouldn't work with just anything.

I had timing tape on my damper, but it tore its rubber, so for now, I've marked the replacement damper with a paint pen, marking the zero slot clean across to distinguish that, then measuring 16.37 or ~ 16 3/8 degrees per inch for my 7 inch damper, and marking a couple other relevant points such as 10, 5, and 16 degrees advance for now. I cam ,ark a 32.75 degree spot EZPZ the same way. I reckon I'd best get some more timing tape, but likely will want a NEW or rebuilt damper for that first. MSD tape can be had for $6 for a set of sundry diameter dampers, though I likely will want a tape that will go at least to 45 degrees, and will wrap around the entire circumference of the damper, to help hold it in place.

So, the issue is one of AGED instrumentation then? I can readily concur with you that such can likely cause major trouble. So long as I don't have any pot to set in an old timing light, and nothing else too apt to fail, then a simple timing light should be reasonably reliable. All the same, I think I WILL start shopping for a GOOD quality modern timing light, upon these reflections. At least that should provide a sanity check for my work, such as it is. I see Actron yet offers several grades to consider. Anyone here use a digital Actron timing light?

 

[Devinism]

It is usually high hydrocarbons that burns your eyes. They get high from incomplete combustion, timing off, or a lean condition like a vacuum leak.

I agree. I would go looking for a vacuum leak.

I have also had this happen with the distributor over advancing (worn advance plate, allowing way too much vacuum advance), and weak / broken advance weight springs.

 

[Gerald Morris]

...
I have also had this happen with the distributor over advancing (worn advance plate, allowing way too much vacuum advance), and weak / broken advance weight springs.

All worth checking. It also helps to read what's engraved on the arm of the vacuum advance unit: 13.5 in this case. THAT's a LOT of advance from a vacuum pot! This is why I'm inclined to lock the mech advance down hard at zero or the first bump up on that FBO plate. I think the springs on this one are all good, but that plate might be worn, or the little stop might be missing. I don't think so, but I'll give it a double take if/when I put the FBO regulator on this one.

I thank you MUCH for mentioning the matter of a worn advance plate! THAT didn't occur to me. Hmm, lemme give this one a quick look now....

 

[stubs300]

Lit her off again and bam, she’s PURRING at 800 rpm. Now, when I checked my timing at 800 rpm I was reading 25 BTDC. After I saw this, I tried to back off the timing a little by spinning the dizzy counterclockwise and then the engine became real unhappy…

Thinking I may need to get a piston stop to see if my damper has spun at all and whether or not I’m possibly 10° off? Based on how it sounded and was running - I’d say my timing was close. I’m wondering if instead of 25 I was really at 15°?

You could easily still be 1 tooth off on the distributor, I've seen this happen with a /6 many times. It'll run but not be happy, check that out real close!!!!! Good Luck

 

[NitrousTuner1]

Your wasting time even being concerned about initial timing #...
Only thing that truly matters is the Total timing. Which you want between 34°-38°.
You mentioned the cam. I'm 97% sure your using a flat tappet not a hydraulic roller. That being said I'm praying for your cam as you NEVER allow it to idle specially under 1000rpm until it's been "broken in" for atleast 20min.
Lastly your choice of the Weber/Edelbrock fuel dumpster carb 75% of them run rich which is why lazy non tuners love them. ANYTHING Over 5.5psi of fuel pressure will cause richness. AND IF You Didn't remove the lid & set the floats out of the box they are more than likely bent out of adjustment from shipping

 

[Isaiah Estrada]

Your wasting time even being concerned about initial timing #...
Only thing that truly matters is the Total timing. Which you want between 34°-38°.
You mentioned the cam. I'm 97% sure your using a flat tappet not a hydraulic roller. That being said I'm praying for your cam as you NEVER allow it to idle specially under 1000rpm until it's been "broken in" for atleast 20min.
Lastly your choice of the Weber/Edelbrock fuel dumpster carb 75% of them run rich which is why lazy non tuners love them. ANYTHING Over 5.5psi of fuel pressure will cause richness. AND IF You Didn't remove the lid & set the floats out of the box they are more than likely bent out of adjustment from shipping

As I mentioned above ^ the cam was indeed broken in. We ran it at 1,500-2,000 for 25 mins. The engine was just running pretty bad but at that point I didn’t want to shut it down and just made whatever adjustment I could to get it to run decent.

You could be onto something with the floats. The car isn’t a race car or a dragster so I definitely don’t want to deal with a Holley lol. I may have to address the float issue. I don’t think it’s too much carb for a stock 440. It’s a 650 so running rich seems weird to me for the car but it’s definitely running rich and the plugs for all sooty on me.

 

[NitrousTuner1]

Well hopefully you haven't washed the rings by running it pig rich for so long. You definitely want to hurry & change that gas oil as your never gonna be able to properly seat the rings with that broken down oil... What rings & pistons did this 440 get?
What fuel pump are you using?
And we use thousands of Holley based carbs on daily driver's not race car's with no issue's. I tune for a living & have for 20 year's now. I remove those Edelbrocks immediately off everything & see huge improvements in driveability & milage...

 

[Isaiah Estrada]

Well hopefully you haven't washed the rings by running it pig rich for so long. You definitely want to hurry & change that gas oil as your never gonna be able to properly seat the rings with that broken down oil... What rings & pistons did this 440 get?
What fuel pump are you using?
And we use thousands of Holley based carbs on daily driver's not race car's with no issue's. I tune for a living & have for 20 year's now. I remove those Edelbrocks immediately off everything & see huge improvements in driveability & milage...

Not smoking or doing anything bad as of yet lol. I did lean it way down and it doesn’t smell anymore but I need to do it with a vacuum gauge and see what’s up with it.

Don’t know what pistons and rings are on it as someone else put it together for me. Santiago’s Engine in Oxnard CA.

 

[NitrousTuner1]

Sounds like your referring to adjusting the idle air mixture screws... Those have Nothing to do with running rich above 1000rpm.
Washing the rings won't cause it to smoke this soon. But you can spend 10 min Google'ing "washing rings" & "why to never break in a engine rich" to learn exactly what I'm referring to...
Fuel dilution is what kills engine oil & is why your giving a time Not just a milage. But your break-in oil (I Pray you used) is surely ruined by gas breakdown... Even IF someone has mislead you by starting it & not using a break-in oil. Drain it & fill with a Quality break-in with a Napa Gold 1515 filter or a Wix. That way you can atleast finish breaking in the rest of the metals & fully seat the rings to their bores.
Remove the lid of that carb & set floats too

 

[413]

I like to drive them right after cam breaking to seat the rings, they don’t do it in park or neutral, they need a load on them.

 

[Gerald Morris]

You could easily still be 1 tooth off on the distributor, I've seen this happen with a /6 many times. It'll run but not be happy, check that out real close!!!!! Good Luck

Stubbs, having biffed a distributor installation on my /6 when upgrading to a conventional solid state ignition from SUPER LEAN Burn (as in, not burning at all anymore) I know the 1 tooth off is easy w that engine, but to achieve this error on a B/RB, one would have to mis-align the cam to distributor/oil pump shaft. I suppose one could make that error, but if not, then that nice tab and slot combo on the distributor shaft itself would make this mistake impossible. How likely is it that he could have botched his cam installation so? If it is botched that way, one should be able to twist the distributor a few more degrees to compensate, thus putting the motor back in time, nicht wahr?

 

[stubs300]

but to achieve this error on a B/RB, one would have to mis-align the cam to distributor/oil pump shaft. I suppose one could make that error, but if not, then that nice tab and slot combo on the distributor shaft itself would make this mistake impossible.

I realized that after I posted, but someone not paying attention could still easily do the same with the dist. driveshaft on a B/RB.

 

[Gerald Morris]

I realized that after I posted, but someone not paying attention could still easily do the same with the dist. driveshaft on a B/RB.

And doubtless have. Over so many decades, and engines, I'm sure all kinds of screw-ups have been committed. I know I spent a few hours today repairing the consequence of an embarrassingly stupid adolescent error I had repeated for over 40 years before the low probability event finally occurred. Shortcuts make for long delays and such....