What describes a 300

[rd92west]

The thought of a 66 300 with a hemi makes me almost pass out.
In my opinion it would be the ultimate gentleman's hot rod.
It wouldn't be much of a stop light street racer. But the passing gear would be a rush.
As far as finicky and hard to tune, yea that is how a Gen 2 hemi is often described. But really it boils down to checking and setting valve lash, and keeping the dual points maintained.
Sure lots of hemis are poorly tuned dogs. But it would be foolish to assume that your 340 or 383 or 440 can kick any and all hemi's ***.

 

[CBODY67]

As MUCH as some might perceive the HEMI 300 slabs to have been desirable halo models, that is something like "fantasy" to me. A very powerful engine with huge intake ports and large cast iron header exhaust manifolds did work well in a B-body as a Street HEMI, adding another 500+ lbs of weight can put another dynamic to the whole situation. If the low and mid-range torque of the 426SH were noted in a B-body, it would have been worse with the extra weight. Think how THAT would have played into things! Your famous engine gets beat by a 396 Impala, with a holeshot that never gets made up on top end. 3.55 or lower gears could not be in the Chrysler part of things, but could be in a B-body. Fuel economy, even at 25 cents/gallon . . . still an issue with a Chrysler customer that a B-body customer would tolerate.

In the original years of the 426 HEMI "Acceleration Engine" (as Chrysler TSBs termed it), its raucous nature was celebrated and potential buyers were cautioned against ordering one except in bare-bones cars designed for drag racing. Since its enlargement from 413. No doubt, that situation would linger in the Chrysler dealer network for years to follow. The 426SH was celebrated for what it was, as some "press cars" were put into the hands of magazines to take trips in, while also noting their drag strip performance, as a tactic to give the buying public that it was a good daily vehicle.

Obviously, it might have taken some getting used to and learning how to drive it. THIS is a problem for some people who want the car to do what THEY want when they want it, rather than learning how to get the best from the car and working with the car to do it, by observation. People who want to floor the throttle from idle and expect instant tire smoke would be the worst "influencers" for not buying the car, I suspect. Although Chrysler engineers probably did what they could to play to that driver's perceived needs. A difference between B-body owners and C-body owners, I suspect, but that type of driver really knows no platform boundaries. End result, a good bit of "bad press" that Chrysler obviously did not desire. Considering the costs to "get there" with the slab 426SH, it ould have meant they would have paid to get the "bad press" from C-body purchasers.

SO, better to keep the 426SH in platforms for "younger people" who WANTED the 426SH and all that came with it. Where drag racing and NASACAR was more prevalent in the customer base. With the engine also finding homes in A-body and E-body cars, too, but NOT for cruising cross-country in. ALL without factory AIR CONDITIONING!

Air conditioning was not available on most really HP vehicles back then. Two reasons. One had to do with the higher rpms the engines could do and the other one was WEIGHT. Weight was an "enemy" of the hard core drag racer, back then. As 4.10 gears were their "friends". All aftermarket a/c systems used the Tecumseh compressors as Ford used OEM back then. Mounted up front in the middle of the engine, usually. Sandens would not appear until about 15 years later!

In modern times, can a 426SH be a good street/daily car? No doubt. Tucking the Sanden "down under", single EFI (with the new 1x4bbl intakes that make similar power to the 2x4 intakes), and better exhaust manifolds (even in front of the OEM exhaust B-body exhaust system) could make the engine much more livable on the street. Add some modern camshaft tech, so much the better. Different times, back then.

So, to me, the BIG issue is why would Chrysler spend the money to install a 426SH engine into a C-body car, knowing its liabilities in the public's hand? Kind of like spending money on a fancy hunting rifle to shoot yourself in the foot with, to me, when a simple hand gun will do.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[commando1]

I cannot believe everyone is taking this question seriously.
What's the best oil?

 

[CBODY67]

But it would be foolish to assume that your 340 or 383 or 440 can kick any and all hemi's ***.

The "fantasy" is that a good 426SH could fend off ALL competitors. That "top rpm rush" does NOT compensate for time lost from the weaker lower rpm power.

In our Moper club, we had a good selection of good running, highly-finessed tuned, Chrysler HP motors. They were ALL OEM-spec motors, too. NOT "trick of the week" hot rod magazine modified cars, which IS important. Stock cams, stock carburetors, stock exhaust manifolds.

When our guys might meet guys from other car clubs for some friendly competitions, the other guys always wanted to start their competitions with the '70 HEMI 'Cuda. Those that did that were told, "First, you have to start by "qualifying" with that 340 Dart Swinger over there". The challengers thought that was poppycock, but complied with our rules. Starting with the "little engine" and working up through the ranks. The amusing thing was that FEW got past that pesky little Dart 340! To the casual observer, it looked like any other stock Dart Swinger 340, but with some wider tires on it. It had a 3.91 SureGrip and TF, of course. Looking closer, which few people did, they'd see the tires were BFG V-rated radials in a size that was an exact match for the OEM D70-14 tires. There was magic in that V-rated rubber! NO need for slicks. Few people understood that, back then. Well-finessed was the operative word for the car. The 426HEMI 'Cuda later got BFG drag radials when they came out, as did the '70 Challenger R/T 440 6-Pack car. We had lots of fun watching that pesky Dart 340 put 440s and others "on the trailer" at these activities. Consistently, so, without fail. Of course, Dale knew how to drive the car, too.

We also had a standing "street tire and exhaust manifold" rule (i.e., gauntlet) for drag strip challenges to the Brands X racers. FEW took up that challenge as all Chevies already had non-OEM carburetors and headers on their cars to make them "run like they could".

One Jacobs Ignition customer of ours, with a '69 383 Bee, bragged about how good it was. Another member got one and tried to make it work. Did not, so he went back to the Chrysler electronic ignition.

I had a Chevy friend who, in his younger years, could NOT beat an A-body 340 factory car. He would get beat, then do things to his 350 V-8 Vega, and got beat the next weekend. A big and extended "exercise in futility", so he gave up. As he gained a huge respect for the Chrysler 340 engine in stock form.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[rd92west]

340 dart with 3.91 and tires. Humm, what else wasn't he mentioning.
As mentioned this topic could go on for ever.
One thing I know is there is far more hemi experts than hemi owners

 

[69CoronetRT]

The thought of a 66 300 with a hemi makes me almost pass out.
In my opinion it would be the ultimate gentleman's hot rod.

Again....Its difficult to call a car with 1/4 mile times in the 16/17 second range a 'hot rod', when the goal and potential of sub 14 second times was achievable in the late 60's and early 70's. One would unlikely see a discernible difference in a '66 300 with a Hemi compared to a 440-4.

 

[CBODY67]

340 dart with 3.91 and tires. Humm, what else wasn't he mentioning.
As mentioned this topic could go on for ever.
One thing I know is there is far more hemi experts than hemi owners

Not mentioned? Original AVS with stock metering, sitting on the stock intake manifold. Maybe a little faster advance curve. Probably "port matching" done to the heads' intake ports. Stock camshaft and valve train. Seems like he had some Flowmasters at one point in time, but traded them for quieter Walkers.

Point is, this car started well when cold, idled fine in hot summer traffic, and otherwise acted just like it should. NO purpose-built drag car with a radical cam, headers, or mis-matched tire sizes front to rear.

We had one member who worked for Discount Tire, which helped as we were hooked up with Team TA (BFG) back then. My work on tire sizes helped find those tires in the spec sheets. Plus my knowledge of "autocross" tires and what made them work. Which Team TA was involved with, too, before their Drag Radials came out. Think about it, an autocross tire needs to be at full grip quickly in order for the car to be competitive. No smoky burnouts or anything similar. Just nail the gas, stomp the brakes, and steer.

Chrysler built "package motors", back then. All parts were designed to work together as a team AND they did. A little bit of finesse and they were better. As one of our other members (with the Challenger R/T 6-Pak car and '69 Super Bee 6-Pak car) found out, when one part of that package was changed, 1/4 mile times lengthened, which caused more changes, cycle repeat, so he went back to stock specs and got back what he lost. Yes, he did know what he was doing in these modifications so they were done to a high degree of execution, just as his cars were car show winners and drag strip winners, too. His father owned a large repair shop and drove Chryslers, with one GTX in the mix. Yes, he knew what he was doing working on cars, mechanically or body-wise.

By comparison, every Chevy we saw at the drag strip usually had a larger Holley carburetor than stock, aftermarket intake, exhaust headers and larger pipes behind them, and an open-element air cleaner. Then some kind of "bigger cam", many times. And that little Dart Swinger 340 could run with them. AND do it without the "drama" of having to blip the throttle driving through the pits to allegedly keep their spark plugs clean (or impress others), from a combination of: too much cam, too much carb, poor tuning.

Regards,
CBODY67

 

[bronze turbine]

I cannot believe everyone is taking this question seriously.

Obviously a lot of car nerds here. Which is OK with me, I love discussing these hypothetical things.

I remember reading an old Motor Trend magazine from '71 where they did a comparison of 3 '71 Chargers. One had a 440, one had a Hemi, and the third one I can't remember what it had. I don't remember much about the article but one thing I do remember is that the author was impressed by how smooth and civilized the Hemi was in everyday driving.

 

[Big_John]

One thing I know is there is far more hemi experts than hemi owners

I was gonna stay out, but I think that may have been aimed at me.

I have owned 3 Hemi cars.

 

[Dads300]

My opinion is that they likely would have sold a reasonable amount of hemi 300s. There are always top tier guys who want the “best”, and wanted to be sporty or hip. You’d also likely have the slightly older guys who had new hemi Chryslers less than a decade prior, and would for better or worse buy one due to nostalgia or or fond memories.

As an aside, there was a guy in my old car club who had a 71 hemi X, and a 71 440 six barrel ‘Cuda, both owned since the 70s. He once told me that he preferred to drive the hemi on long trips because it liked the open road and delivered better fuel mileage than the 440. He daily’d both of those cars up into the 2000s FWIW.
Travis..

 

[Snotty]

I just looked at the results for the poll and I can't believe more people are saying "muscle car" than "land yacht".

"Muscle Car" has become like "Hero" today, it's applied to any car with a V8. Every time I see that term applied to a Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, or even an E Body, my heart aches. Aren't these people aware of the terms Pony Car and Roadster? The definition of Muscle car, at least 30 years ago, was an intermediate, 5 passenger car, with the largest engine in it from the Manufacturer, a la the GTO.

I didn't respond to the poll because it's not a MC, and I don't like the other terms. So, how about [X] Nice Car.

What did I mean by hero? When a sports figure is called a hero, the word has lost its meaning. Same for an actor, singer, or anyone who doesn't strap on a weapon and is prepared to give his/her life in the defense of others.

 

[CBODY67]

In 1969, CAR LIFE magazine did a group test of cars with "big engines" in them. 1969 LTD 4dr hardtop 429, Caprice 4-dr hardtop 427 F-41, Plymouth Fury 383 2bbl, Dodge Monaco 2dr hardtop 440HP. They called these cars "Power Cars". To me, that description works for Chrysler 300 non-letter cars.

Muscle cars = Intermediate-sized cars with 380cid+ engines, starting in about 1964
Pony cars = Ford Mustang and its competitors
Power Cars = full-size or larger cars with "big block" engines

Many seek to define "performance" by 1/4 mile ETs and speed, or 0-60mph times. Power Cars can deliver credible performance, but not to the level of a Muscle car or big-engine Pony Car, due to their weight. Personally, I also include "road performance" on roads that are not straight and level, which is where Chrysler suspensions with HD shocks can do well. Firm ride and responsive steering. Plus that "Torsion Bar Feel" that I came to appreciate on 4hr road trips.

As engine and transmission technology has increased, "muscle car performance" can be bested by many current Turbo 4cyls with 10-speed automatics. BTAIM

To me, the terms "Muscle Car" and "Classic" have been vastly over-used during the past 30 years.

CBODY67

 

[Snotty]

Power Cars, I like that!

 

[KevinW]

Interesting discussion. Getting back to the 300, I’ve owned several 68 cars, Newports, Newport Customs and a 300 convertible, 383 and 440 engines. I do like the 67-8 cars. but of all the 300 vehicles from 1955 through 1965, my favourite is the 1960 F, second the 1961 G. The rams can be finicky to set up, but I have become competent working with them. None of these 4600 pound beasts will blow the doors off the later muscle cars, but I’m very satisfied taking her down the highway to various car shows. The rams with unsilenced air cleaners sound like an engine symphony at full throttle.

 

[300George]

Having grown up with a 57 300 C (still have it) And a 300 J from me being 10 years old (still have it too) And 20 year ownership of a 300 L 4 speed, The J is the most finicky but a real terror. The C is smooth power. Slow off the line but sure gets rolling at 40 mph. The L is a great cruiser. Awful in traffic with the gearing and weight. All such different driving experiences.

 

[300George]

Interesting discussion. Getting back to the 300, I’ve owned several 68 cars, Newports, Newport Customs and a 300 convertible, 383 and 440 engines. I do like the 67-8 cars. but of all the 300 vehicles from 1955 through 1965, my favourite is the 1960 F, second the 1961 G. The rams can be finicky to set up, but I have become competent working with them. None of these 4600 pound beasts will blow the doors off the later muscle cars, but I’m very satisfied taking her down the highway to various car shows. The rams with unsilenced air cleaners sound like an engine symphony at full throttle.

Hey Kevin! Good to see someone here I know.

 

[KevinW]

Hey Kevin! Good to see someone here I know.

Me too, hope you’re well!
Call sometime, we can catch up, much has changed!

 

[300George]

Me too, hope you’re well!
Call sometime, we can catch up, much has changed!

All good in full retirement! Will do sir! Oh, that sounds ominous lol

 

[Blusmbl]

Again....Its difficult to call a car with 1/4 mile times in the 16/17 second range a 'hot rod', when the goal and potential of sub 14 second times was achievable in the late 60's and early 70's. One would unlikely see a discernible difference in a '66 300 with a Hemi compared to a 440-4.

Definitely fair here. I had a '68 300, mostly stock it ran low 16's. It was fun and a great cruiser but would definitely never call it a hot rod in the classical sense of the term.

I've heard from multiple people that have owned them that the street Hemis definitely required more maintenance with the solid lifters and dual points, plus they were susceptible to intake leaks, along with oil getting on the plugs from the spark plug tubes leaking. And totally agree with Big John here, with the port size you really had to wind them out to get them to match performance of a decent 440. My uncle bought a 1 year old used Mr. Norms '68 Coronet R/T Hemi 4 speed car, and it was an absolute dog until he put 4.56 gears in it. Nobody's* going to want to put 4.xx gears in a C body and ruin how well it cruises.

*I have 4.10's in my Fury but it's also because I chose an unorthodox vehicle to use as a race car, lol.