Start/run problem

[Ross Wooldridge]

Hey FCBO hive-mind - I have a new issue cropping up with my 66 T&C.

440, Pertronix Igniter system with Pertronix Flamethrower coil, ballast resistor left in place. Fairly new cap, rotor and vacuum advance. Good plugs and wires AFAIK... this car used to be rock solid even after 6 months down time... set the choke, crank for 10 seconds at a time, 3rd crank, good to go with fast idle etc, etc. However...

New Symptoms (these symptoms are increasing in severity and length daily):

Even after only being parked for a few hours, I crank it, and instead of catching right away it takes a while, but then it "wants" to start. Crank some more, starts, but then dies. Crank some more, starts, dies... repeat.

Then it seems to go back to normal - crank, catches, release the key and it idles for a few seconds (5-20 seconds), then without warning it dies. Crank again, and it does the same thing.

Latest version - (kinda like everyone says when a ballast resistor fails) - crank, it catches, release the key, it dies. It does this for a few times (more and more now), then finally it seems to catch and idle fine after the key is released. I can idle it for a while, then I can put it in gear, and go for a drive. Accelerate, all is good, lotsa power etc etc. Then without warning, it dies. Shift to neutral, crank, it catches. Sometimes it dies again, sometimes it's good.

After it this it seems to be fine, and I can drive without incident for a while - 50 miles or more.

Park it in the shop, and it does it all again the next time.

Any ideas?

Would the ballast resistor have any play in this scenario? Remember, it's a Pertronix Igniter system where one can either leave the ballast resistor in place or eliminate it. Failing Pertronix? Failing coil (Pertronix Flamethrower)?

Any and all suggestions welcome.

Thanks in advance!

 

[67Monaco]

Take the ballast out of the circuit if you're running their coil.

 

[Newport 66]

Ok, I'm going out on a limb here, but I had the same starting scenario with my Newport. Replaced the ballast resistor thinking I had chased down its issue. Well today as I was merrily cruising down the highway thinking all was right, it started stumbling and died (after abt 35 miles) the problem turned out to be the fuel pump, I also need to measure the pump pushrod as long as its apart. I'll now abt that when I check the length.

 

[CBODY67]

Checked the accel pump shot after it dies?

Just a thought,
CBODY67

 

[67Monaco]

Just adding fuel to the fire about the ballast.

Pertronix Flame-Thrower Coil vs Ignition Ballast

 

[Davea Lux]

Sounds like the electronics in the control module/pickup module might be failing, try pulling the coil wire to see if you have spark when cranking. If you get the car started, hook the timing light to the coil wire and see if the spark dies as the engine dies. If you have spark as the engine dies, the problem is probably fuel related.

Dave

 

[cbarge]

Sounds fuel related.
6 months downtime? How fresh is the gas?
When was the last time carb was rebuilt?
How old is fuel filter??
Recommend checking fuel pressure. Anything below 7 PSI car will have difficulty running. So check fuel pump and pump pushrod.
Check all lines for any restrictions or rotten rubber lines.
Retarded timing can also cause a ling crank time and stalling.
What is the timing at and how much vacuum?
Regarding the ignition, either you have spark or you dont.
Hope this helps

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Gas is fresh.
Carb is not too old in terms of last rebuild - fuel filter is fairly new.

This problem is intermittent in that once it decides to go, it runs perfectly. Lots of power, no fuel starvation, choke functions perfectly, fast idle is right on the money, no stumbles cold or warm when it decides it's not going to die... this is why I think it's spark related...

 

[Turboomni]

Run points and try it out. Use the correct coil for points if you do. 1.3 to 1.5 ohms Not a 3 ohm coil with ballast.

 

[mr. fix it]

Looks like you have your hands full in full on diagnostics mode
Ross.
My gut tells me that there's a ground wire loose somewhere.
Having made this comment, my Polara this year especially has done similar running cutting out.
I'm running an early 70's style upgraded(discontinued) distributor from summit racing in my Poly.
It finally died totally one day while waiting at a Mickey D's drive through. I grabbed a ballast resistor out of the glove box and away I went.

I know you will keep us posted on what you find.

 

[Big_John]

First thing I would do is eliminate the ballast resistor. No need for it.

I'm kind of agreeing with @cbarge that it might be fuel related. Usually, electronics, like the Pertronix, either work or they don't. If they do show some sort of quirk, they usually just completely fail rather than getting worse. Of course, that's just usual and your mileage may vary.

Next time, take a look down the carb and see if you can get fuel to squirt out of the accelerator pump. This really sounds more like the fuel pump is going south (if it's a big block possibly the pump rod) or a float not set right.

The other "off the cuff" try might be to swap the ignition coil and see what happens.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Thanks everyone for your quick and insightful responses. Notice I said insightful rather than inciteful!!

Although at first I felt it was a spark issue, I am now feeling it is fuel related... true, I am wondering about the coil as a possible issue, but why would this occur "cold" - most coil issues I've heard about are when things get warm...

As well, as I wonder more about it being a fuel issue, I tend to agree that Pertronix systems and the like "either work or they don't" as per what Big John said above, and the car has been rock solid for many years with this system. So, I am going to look into the fuel pump and push rod as a possibility, along with checking all the rubber lines as a matter of course. This therefore raises some questions:

So,

1) If the pump is failing and introducing air into the fuel line during the time the car sits due to drain-back from the lines from the pump to the carb (and as it gets worse, more air gets in), would the car tend to be able to run smoothly once all the air pockets have been sucked through and fuel is flowing without air, even though the pump may be only working at 60% or so? This would explain the "finally it gets going and is OK until I park it and try to start it the next time" scenario.

2) If there are cracks in rubber fuel lines BEFORE the pump (since there are none after the pump), wouldn't this tend to suck air in as the fuel pump is working, and hence the problem would occur all the time, and not just at the beginning of a drive? The symptoms I'm experiencing would tend to preclude air being drawn in by vacuum created by pump suction...

Thoughts?

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Make sure you know how to get GPS coordinates off your phone then you can use them to get a new petronix delivered by buster brown in a couple of days. Petronix yeah LoL.

 

[mr. fix it]

Thanks everyone for your quick and insightful responses. Notice I said insightful rather than inciteful!!

Although at first I felt it was a spark issue, I am now feeling it is fuel related... true, I am wondering about the coil as a possible issue, but why would this occur "cold" - most coil issues I've heard about are when things get warm...

As well, as I wonder more about it being a fuel issue, I tend to agree that Pertronix systems and the like "either work or they don't" as per what Big John said above, and the car has been rock solid for many years with this system. So, I am going to look into the fuel pump and push rod as a possibility, along with checking all the rubber lines as a matter of course. This therefore raises some questions:

So,

1) If the pump is failing and introducing air into the fuel line during the time the car sits due to drain-back from the lines from the pump to the carb (and as it gets worse, more air gets in), would the car tend to be able to run smoothly once all the air pockets have been sucked through and fuel is flowing without air, even though the pump may be only working at 60% or so? This would explain the "finally it gets going and is OK until I park it and try to start it the next time" scenario.

2) If there are cracks in rubber fuel lines BEFORE the pump (since there are none after the pump), wouldn't this tend to suck air in as the fuel pump is working, and hence the problem would occur all the time, and not just at the beginning of a drive? The symptoms I'm experiencing would tend to preclude air being drawn in by vacuum created by pump suction...

Thoughts?

A failing FP will give you a hard start condition.
It will cause stumbling & may or may not have a total loss of engine power to the point of quitting.
Check your oil levels in case the diaphram is failing and pumping some gas into the crankcase.

If you can, run the engine and put a stethoscope on the timing chain cover where the FP mounts.
You should hear a nice whooshing sounding with a mild tapping.

If the spring is failed for the pump arm it will be very loud and clattering.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Thoughts

Sucking air in pick up tube from a rust pit on the line. Had this happen, drove me nuts.

 

[furious70]

When it won't fire you can test ignition like Dave said but you can also test fuel like that, when dies will a little shot in the carb fire it right back up?

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Good idea!

 

[Mike66Chryslers]

Take the ballast out of the circuit if you're running their coil.

This comes up every time in a Pertronix post. If it is an Ignitor-1 (the original Pertronix Ignitor) the instructions say to NOT remove the BR if originally equipped. It doesn't matter if you're running their coil or not. With Ignitor-II and III you can remove the BR.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0247/6913/4628/files/1381A.pdf

Page 1, point #3 of the Ignitor-I instruction manual: "If your ignition system is equipped with a ballast resistor, do not remove it."

NOTE that, if there is a BR in circuit, the RED (+) wire of the Ignitor itself is supposed to be connected to a full 12V power source, not to the + terminal of the coil, which receives the reduced voltage through the BR. That is also described in the Ignitor manual, Figure #3. If not, the voltage may be dropping too much for the Ignitor's electronics.

 

[Devinism]

If you haven't yet, you might replace the rubber fuel hoses.
1) Between the fuel sending unit at the tank and the metal fuel line
2) Between the metal fuel line and the IN side of the pump
I've seen them suck shut

And, of course, if the fuel pump is over 10 years old just replace it, before it becomes a problem.

I hope you find that it was something simple

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

I am going to do the fuel pump, push rod if required (I got a deal on two NOS originals, so one for my other car too), and all the rubber lines. I'll let you all know what transpires.