spark plug heat range

Lilbluecoupe71

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ive been having some considerable amount of ping under wot, had to bring the timing down to 27-28degrees for it to stop.
was running champion rc12yc heat range 5.
today i swapped in a set of ngk r5671a-7 heat range 7. i did a few wot pulls and had no ping up to 31.5degrees of timing. car seemed to like these plugs, which lead me to believe im heading in the right direction.
some base info on the engine its a 505 stroker, solid roller cam, aluminum heads 10:1 comp. i was looking for some feed back on reading these plugs. leave these in or go one more step colder?

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Maximum total timing is usually around 32-34 degrees, try running it at that and if it still does not ping, plugs are probably ok. You did not mention what octane fuel you are running as that makes a big difference, The duration of the engine cam will also effect what you can get away with for total timing. The fuel curve on the carb also enters into the equation, persistent pinging could mean too lean of fuel mixtures at WOT. Stroker engines are usually thirsty beasts, so you may need to go up on your carb jetting. Generally, for a street engine running premium pump gas, something in the 9.5-1 comp ratio usually works about the best for most uses assuming the fuel ratio and timing are correct for the application. Some folks spend a lot of time on a dyno to get all this dialed in.

Dave
 
im running edelbroc pro flo 4 efi on it. afr at wot is 12.7. using 93 octane fuel.
timing is all in at 2700rpm. i had total time set to 32 on the first pull and i had a very small amount of ping around 5k backed it down to 31.5 and didnt have any. as far as cam duration its around 221int 230ex if i recall. will have to check cam card for exact. i may try setting the afr a tad fatter and bring the timing back to 32 to see what happens. thanks for the info dave.
 
im running edelbroc pro flo 4 efi on it. afr at wot is 12.7. using 93 octane fuel.
timing is all in at 2700rpm. i had total time set to 32 on the first pull and i had a very small amount of ping around 5k backed it down to 31.5 and didnt have any. as far as cam duration its around 221int 230ex if i recall. will have to check cam card for exact. i may try setting the afr a tad fatter and bring the timing back to 32 to see what happens. thanks for the info dave.

Another idea would be to try a tankful of Clear Gas if it is available in your area. The moonshine free fuel usually gives a good boost in performance with less pinging.

Dave
 
Remember that NGK heat range numbers are higher for the colder plugs, unlike other brands whose heat range numbers increase with the "hotness" of the plug. NGK Iridiums?

12.7 afr sounds about right to me, fwiw. But you got rid of the slight ping at 5Krpm with just a .5 degree BTDC decrease in total timing? Usually, it takes more than just .5 degree BTDC.

How are the plugs coloring after your "pulls"? Any variations in the ceramic insulator color between the cylinders? None show signs of leanness or richness, for example?

Sometimes, a colder plug will not contribute to a clatter/ping tendency as a hoter plug might. Seems like the old B/RB 10.0cr 4bbl engines went as cold as a Champion J-10Y? If I remember my NGK crossovers, you're not quite that cold with what you now have?

If your 93 octane fuel has 10% ethanol, you might need to go a bit richer on the calibration at WOT as 0 ethanol content has a stoich ratio of 14.8 which can go down to about 14.2 stoich (optimum afr) at cruise with 10% ethanol. So a slightly richer WOT power mixture might be in order?

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
Remember that NGK heat range numbers are higher for the colder plugs, unlike other brands whose heat range numbers increase with the "hotness" of the plug. NGK Iridiums?

12.7 afr sounds about right to me, fwiw. But you got rid of the slight ping at 5Krpm with just a .5 degree BTDC decrease in total timing? Usually, it takes more than just .5 degree BTDC.

How are the plugs coloring after your "pulls"? Any variations in the ceramic insulator color between the cylinders? None show signs of leanness or richness, for example?

Sometimes, a colder plug will not contribute to a clatter/ping tendency as a hoter plug might. Seems like the old B/RB 10.0cr 4bbl engines went as cold as a Champion J-10Y? If I remember my NGK crossovers, you're not quite that cold with what you now have?

If your 93 octane fuel has 10% ethanol, you might need to go a bit richer on the calibration at WOT as 0 ethanol content has a stoich ratio of 14.8 which can go down to about 14.2 stoich (optimum afr) at cruise with 10% ethanol. So a slightly richer WOT power mixture might be in order?

Enjoy!
CBODY67

They used J-10y champions in 360 horse 413's.

Dave
 
from what the conversion charts show a j-10y converts to a 6 heat range on ngk plugs, which is hotter then what im running. im located in NJ seems all we have is the 10% ethanol mix. i have some of that VP octane booster, might give that a try too.
i just pulled the number 1 plug after a couple of pulls which is what i posted, looks clean.
 
My 300J with the 390 hp 413 had J-9y's with a 9.7 comp ratio. When I rebuilt it, I dropped the ratio down to 9.0 and went with a J-8y as the 9's are no longer available. It runs fine at 32 degrees. It seems that every catalog shows pre-1970 Chryslers are supposed to use J-12Y's which were too hot, even at the 9.0 level.
 
My 300J with the 390 hp 413 had J-9y's with a 9.7 comp ratio. When I rebuilt it, I dropped the ratio down to 9.0 and went with a J-8y as the 9's are no longer available. It runs fine at 32 degrees. It seems that every catalog shows pre-1970 Chryslers are supposed to use J-12Y's which were too hot, even at the 9.0 level.

In the 1966 Chrysler service manual, 9.2cr 383 2bbls were spec'd for Champion J-14Y plugs, with the 383-4bbls in the J-10Y range. Which was typical for Chrysler B/RB engines for ages.

In the '70 Dodge Polara/Monaco FSM: 383 2bbl 9.2cr J-14Y 383 4bbl 9.5cr J-11Y
440/350 9.7cr J-13Y 440/370 9.7cr Spec Cam J-11Y These uses had been typical for many years, at this time.

The 1965 Chrysler FSM indicates that the 383 2bbl (9.2cr) and other non-"Power Pack" 383 and 413 10.0cr) engines used J-14Y and the 413 Power Pack used J-10Y.

Our '72 Newport 400 2bbl 8.2cr spec'd J-13Y plugs. In all cases, the distributors usually had about 25 degrees (crank degrees) timing in them, when combined with the initial timing usually putting them in the 34-38 degrees total area.

My observations on the '70 Monaco 383N was that the J-11Y worked just fine in normal driving. Oil consumption was about 1qt/2500miles at 80K miles, fwiw. No clatter with premium fuel (the spec) at WOT.

On our '66 Newport 383 2bbl (40degrees total advance), the J-14Ys worked just fine. No evidence of them being too hot, ever. From new, it preferred premium fuel, which we fed it all the time, so it was happy. It did NOT like regular fuel of any brand, period, at factory specs.

One thing that was mentioned in prior times, was that the 4bbl HP motors usually had lower total timing settings and colder plugs so that the law enforcement operatives could use regular-grade fuel (From their normal "fleet" fuel supply) and it not compromise their WOT extended-use performance. Just cruising around, no need for premium gas, only during "chase" periods. So the colder plugs on engines which might get into those situations (i.e., the 4bbl motors). With something one notch colder if needed, from the normal J-10Y or J-11Y spec.

On the other hand, a normal "enthusiast" might tinker with their engines a bit more and be more inclined to go a bit colder with their normal plugs, if they drag raced, if necessary. Just as they might play with fuel curve calibrations and the distributor's spark advance rate/total timing.

Also note that this was back in the days of fully-leaded fuels to increase Research Octane ratings, rather than rely upon "aromatics" to do similar things. And, with a Sunn air/fuel meter hooked to the engine's exhaust system, once the engines free-running rpm got into the 2500rpm range (criuse no-load rpm), the meter's needle would head toward 14.7 "stoich" on the meter. Even with a non-CAP carb and 12.5 degrees initial in the '66 383 2bbl, it was possible to adjust to a 14.2 afr, but the idle was more shaky, so we went back to the "lean best idle" settings.

I don't know if I've seen any data on how E10 might affect spark plug heat range per se, just that stoich is more like 14.2 rather than 14.7 (due to the lower heat content of E10 fuel blends).

By observation there are several things which can affect engine "ping/clatter". Fuel octane is a main one, just as combustion chamber design is also in the mix, as David Vizard proved, without any electronic detonation limiter mechanisms. Extended-tip spark plug heat range can be one of the "fine tuning" items, I suspect.

Whatever works for you,
CBODY67
 
Throw those Champions in the trash, or just give them to a stock engine owner.
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This is perfect heat range, right on the bend. What is controlling your timing? EFI or distributor. Sounds like you have timing creep or your pulling vacuum at high RPM. What heads are you running? Assuming 400/440 based big block. A cranking compression number would also help.
Did anyone ever verify TDC on dampener/timing tab?
 
the efi is controlling the timing. im running mopar performance aluminum heads, basically rebranded performer rpm heads. yes when i built the engine i verified the timing tab lines up with tdc. ill have to bring my compression tester home for crankimg comp. i poured a bottle of vp octane booster in today with a fresh tank of gas, seemed to help didnt hear any ping.
 
im running mopar performance aluminum heads, basically rebranded performer rpm heads
They should have good swirl/charge movement at TDC
the efi is controlling the timing
I'll leave that alone since it should be fine and no WOT vacuum normally with EFI.
yes when i built the engine i verified the timing tab lines up with tdc
Excellent.
. ill have to bring my compression tester home for crankimg comp
Aluminum heads and decent combustion chamber, you should be safe to 185-200 psi
i poured a bottle of vp octane booster in today with a fresh tank of gas, seemed to help didnt hear any ping
I think you might have found your problem, I would follow that route. Most gas today will not maintain octane through a winter.
You should be able to run around 35-36° without too much trouble.
Leave those Champions for the resto guys. If you need a couple of points of octane boost in the future you can always add a gallon of E 85 for around every 10 gallons of 93 10% ethanol. It's a bit cheaper than the boosters out there works about the same, may have to bump a tenth or two A/F ratio.
Oh, and try and run it out before you leave it sit for winter.
 
Holy moly, what's a stoich ratio?

Shorthand for stoichiometric ratio: the ratio of air to fuel which completely oxidizes all atoms available from the fuel without leaving surplus oxygen when the reaction terminates. Spark plug temperatures effect the reaction environment by providing a good initial temperature for the fuel to flash AND burn to completion. FWIW, I recently consulted my FSM, saw that for 2-bbl engines in 1966, the Champion J-14Y was preferred. I found some, cheap and am so happy with the result I grabbed another set for next year! I may snarf a few more, given what happens with desireable NOS parts at times.

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Note how the J-10Y was prescribed for police cars. I suspect Champion in fact uses a convention such that the hotter plug temperature corresponds to a lower number. I was running J-12Ys available from Rock Auto and prescribed by them but note that I was able to set the advance back to 12.5 degrees BTDC with NO PINGING!!! Now, to consult Mr. Ray about a good pure All American distributor....
 

Was shopping for J-13Ys, which have become absurdly expensive, but the 14s are still good! Think its time for me to HOARD again. Glad I verified the 14 in the FSM too. I had tried J11Ys last year also, as they came in a set of heads I found in town. They burned oil well, but made things warmer than I really like.
 
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