451 went boom

[Jeremiah]

I bet I know who built that!

I have a) a 500hp/500tq 451 pump gas engine (built by Cab Burge, dyno'd at Lindvig's that I would sell. It is fresh carb to pan. 5k but we might be able to have you reuse some of your ignition etc.

Option b) I have a bare, virgin 400 block ready to be magnifluxed and sonic tested sitting here in my climate controlled shop. Give me a call and we can talk. JD in Wimer

 

[carrman]

I bet I know who built that!

I have a) a 500hp/500tq 451 pump gas engine (built by Cab Burge, dyno'd at Lindvig's that I would sell. It is fresh carb to pan. 5k but we might be able to have you reuse some of your ignition etc.

Option b) I have a bare, virgin 400 block ready to be magnifluxed and sonic tested sitting here in my climate controlled shop. Give me a call and we can talk. JD in Wimer

I’m interested!!!!!

 

[Jeremiah]

I’m interested!!!!!

You can come check it out tomorrow if you want. Good thing to do on a rainy Sunday. Man I'd hate for you to sell that car I was admiring it outside of the quicky mart on Vilas and Table Rock around lunch time a few months back. What a great car to see running around town.

Also once it is running let's stick it on the the Nor-pac chassis dyno in Central Point ( #npdyno on Instagram) and really make sure it's dialed in. I will tune it no charge (unless it has a Thermoquad).

 

[Davea Lux]

You can come check it out tomorrow if you want. Good thing to do on a rainy Sunday. Man I'd hate for you to sell that car I was admiring it outside of the quicky mart on Vilas and Table Rock around lunch time a few months back. What a great car to see running around town.

Also once it is running let's stick it on the the Nor-pac chassis dyno in Central Point ( #npdyno on Instagram) and really make sure it's dialed in. I will tune it no charge (unless it has a Thermoquad).

I see you have worked on a thermoquad before.

Dave

 

[Jeremiah]

I had one working really good one time. It is in the attic lol.

 

[The Captain]

Reminds me of a 440 I had that had been rebuilt by the previous owner. It started to do the wah wah wah noise and got worse. Finally after a long drive I was revving the engine from under the hood and noticed the crank was moving forward when I revved it. Dropped the pan and whoever built the motor installed the center cap with the thrust bearing cocked on accident or on purpose to correct the crank end play. The rear thrust bearing surface was worn down. Engine had KB pistons and ARP bolts, crank cut and block bored, etc.

 

[volksworld]

just for my 2 cents which is probably wrong...step one i think starting over with another engine is the safest thing to do anyway...but did you actually pull a ring and check the gap in the bore? have block or head checked for cracks? cause to me this thing looks like it was detonating and blew the corner off the piston and popped the head gasket...back in the day a buddy ran high compression pistons in a 318 and they always blew the corners off by the intake valve pocket cause there was too little material there above the ring land...race car and there were probably many other factors that caused this to happen but it was the weak spot...so what i'm trying to get at is to make sure there isnt a detonation issue due to compression, air/fuel ratio , ignition or cooling that will cause the next engine to do the same thing

 

[carrman]

Heads are being picked up today to have a machine shop check for damage. If it was pinging, I never heard it. And I'm pretty intune with that car making noises. Need to get the engine out to check for what the ring gap actually was.

 

[carrman]

Oh, and the head gasket did NOT pop.

 

[The Captain]

I put a new thrust bearing in and it was better sounding but still over spec on crank end play. Still had wah wah wah noise until warmed up. It had to be wearing the pistons and pins out from the crank moving back and forth. Ran great but I never trusted that engine. Crank had wear on the thrust surface but I wasn't taking that engine out.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Piston crowns don't crack and break off like that from detonation. Detonation will overheat piston and melt it. That failure is a stuck ring.

 

[carrman]

I put a new thrust bearing in and it was better sounding but still over spec on crank end play. Still had wah wah wah noise until warmed up. It had to be wearing the pistons and pins out from the crank moving back and forth. Ran great but I never trusted that engine. Crank had wear on the thrust surface but I wasn't taking that engine out.

Holy Hell, I dont think that machine shop did ANYTHING right.....

 

[The Captain]

You would be shocked how good a 440 will run with.040 crank end play. Lol

 

[carrman]

Rods not resized, rings not gapped correctly, crank end play not dealt with. I got screwed for thousands of dollars with zero recourse.

 

[3175375]

Rods not resized, rings not gapped correctly, crank end play not dealt with. I got screwed for thousands of dollars with zero recourse.

Sorry to hear about your bad outcome. Sempre Adelante!

 

[flyinbrick68]

Does Keith Black even make a forged piston for the Mopar big blocks? Personally I'd go with TRW Forged Pistons that will keep you @ about 9 to 1 when your + .040 over. Also I'd make a day trip up the Wildcat Motors up in Sandy, Or. a half hour east of Portland. I'm pretty sure they can fix you up with a thick wall 440 with a forged crank produced in the late '60s. And you might wanna call 'um first to make sure that have a block and crank. That'd be where I would start (and have), Jer

If icons are kieth black then yup. Gonna use a set in my 451 im working on.

 

[twostick]

just for my 2 cents which is probably wrong...step one i think starting over with another engine is the safest thing to do anyway...but did you actually pull a ring and check the gap in the bore? have block or head checked for cracks? cause to me this thing looks like it was detonating and blew the corner off the piston and popped the head gasket...back in the day a buddy ran high compression pistons in a 318 and they always blew the corners off by the intake valve pocket cause there was too little material there above the ring land...race car and there were probably many other factors that caused this to happen but it was the weak spot...so what i'm trying to get at is to make sure there isnt a detonation issue due to compression, air/fuel ratio , ignition or cooling that will cause the next engine to do the same thing

If your buddy was running a hypereutectic cast piston in his hotrod 318 but used a standard cast piston ring gap, that's what happens. The heat transfer to the ring is higher with a hyper and the ring ends butt and it jacks the ring up.

Pretty sure the OP's Keith Blacks are hypereutectic and the builder either didn't gap the rings or didn't gap them to the wider spec.

Hypereutectics are just slightly less fragile than glass and will tolerate little to no abuse but if they are installed by the book to the letter and never detonated, they will live a long happy life.

Kevin

 

[carrman]

If your buddy was running a hypereutectic cast piston in his hotrod 318 but used a standard cast piston ring gap, that's what happens. The heat transfer to the ring is higher with a hyper and the ring ends butt and it jacks the ring up.

Pretty sure the OP's Keith Blacks are hypereutectic and the builder either didn't gap the rings or didn't gap them to the wider spec.

Hypereutectics are just slightly less fragile than glass and will tolerate little to no abuse but if they are installed by the book to the letter and never detonated, they will live a long happy life.

Kevin

The KB 251 is a hyper piston.

 

[twostick]

Does Keith Black even make a forged piston for the Mopar big blocks? Personally I'd go with TRW Forged Pistons that will keep you @ about 9 to 1 when your + .040 over. Also I'd make a day trip up the Wildcat Motors up in Sandy, Or. a half hour east of Portland. I'm pretty sure they can fix you up with a thick wall 440 with a forged crank produced in the late '60s. And you might wanna call 'um first to make sure that have a block and crank. That'd be where I would start (and have), Jer

Jer those TRW/Sealed Power forged pistons are heavier than a dead priest, I'd look at something from Diamond, Wiseco etc.

The early blocks aren't actually any thicker than the late ones are. That is a myth. The iron they are made from tho is a little harder but the main webs are thinner so it boils down to the best block has the distributor in the front.

That RV block is as good a core as any to build and if I was going to the trouble of machining a block properly for a rebuild I'd pony up the price of a 4.25" stroker kit. When you do the math it maybe adds $1000 to the build and you won't get better bang for the buck than that.

Kevin

 

[BIGBARNEYCARS]

Jer those TRW/Sealed Power forged pistons are heavier than a dead priest, I'd look at something from Diamond, Wiseco etc.

The early blocks aren't actually any thicker than the late ones are. That is a myth. The iron they are made from tho is a little harder but the main webs are thinner so it boils down to the best block has the distributor in the front.

That RV block is as good a core as any to build and if I was going to the trouble of machining a block properly for a rebuild I'd pony up the price of a 4.25" stroker kit. When you do the math it maybe adds $1000 to the build and you won't get better bang for the buck than that.

Kevin

Heavy? Yes, But I had that engine built by Muscle Motors in Lansing, Mi. over the winter of 2007+2008, and they'd been in the Business for 30 yearz at that time and are still doing it today. 2017 was my last trip to Carlisle and az far az I know they're still on Manufacturers row for Chryslers at Carlisle Show. I started with a '67 Imperial block, crank, and the 906 heads it was born with and using those pistons in a .40 over bore, It leaves you with a 9 to 1 squeeze when they fourge the pistons to set deeper in the bores when there manufactured. Had the biggest valves you can put in those 906 heads(188s + 214s and all stainless seats on both sides) One of Mothers Purple shaft just under 500 lift and it went merrily down the road burning 87 octane and it would light 'um up almost just by looking at my right foot. Every time I even think of the Batwagon I still get that warm 'n fuzzy feeling and it's been out of my life for 6 yearz now and I still think I made "0" mistakes in that build and it weighed 5800 with a full tank and me sittin' in it, and got 8 MPG with either a 323 or a 276 installed lol. Jer

Jer those TRW/Sealed Power forged pistons are heavier than a dead priest, I'd look at something from Diamond, Wiseco etc.

The early blocks aren't actually any thicker than the late ones are. That is a myth. The iron they are made from tho is a little harder but the main webs are thinner so it boils down to the best block has the distributor in the front.

That RV block is as good a core as any to build and if I was going to the trouble of machining a block properly for a rebuild I'd pony up the price of a 4.25" stroker kit. When you do the math it maybe adds $1000 to the build and you won't get better bang for the buck than that.

Kevin