'67 Monaco master brake cylinder questions

MoPar~Man

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The die inserts are not marked, but there are 5 of them, so I could have / should have assumed that the smallest one was for the smallest pipe, which is 3/16 (instead I grabbed the die for the 1/4 pipe, because the pin almost fit, so I made it fit. It just didn't make sense to me that the pins on these dies have to be a loose fit, otherwise you don't get a bubble.

I have several tube cutters - for copper water line. I'm guessing they wouldn't have worked for the 3/16 brake line, so I didn't even reach for it. I just grabbed a hacksaw, then cleaned the end on my table grinder then wire buffed it.
 

1970FuryConv

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The die inserts are not marked, but there are 5 of them, so I could have / should have assumed that the smallest one was for the smallest pipe, which is 3/16 (instead I grabbed the die for the 1/4 pipe, because the pin almost fit, so I made it fit. It just didn't make sense to me that the pins on these dies have to be a loose fit, otherwise you don't get a bubble.

I have several tube cutters - for copper water line. I'm guessing they wouldn't have worked for the 3/16 brake line, so I didn't even reach for it. I just grabbed a hacksaw, then cleaned the end on my table grinder then wire buffed it.
If you have an air compressor, you can use an exhaust cut off wheel for cutting line. Another option
 

MoPar~Man

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Ok, so the new MC is on. Before I changed it, I was trying to bleed the front brakes, but wasn't getting anything out of the passenger side. Before hooking up the new MC I tried blowing compressed air through that front line with the bleed screw out, but air would not flow. Long story short, the flex line was plugged. I took it off, ran a wire through it (back and forth, a lot) and ran water though it, black stuff flowed out, but now the line is clear. It looks to be in good shape, not cracked or anything (but it is probably 30 years old). Canada tire has one for like 8 bucks but will take a couple days to get, so I said sure, but I put the old line back on (these lines really could be a few inches longer if you ask me). Connected up all the lines, bled them all, peddle is hard now. I suppose with the engine running the first peddle push it will go to the floor (why does that happen?) but it will probably come back up with more pushes. I'll see if that's how it goes tomorrow.

I did start the engine a week or so ago, it started like a champ. Ran it for 10 minutes then shut it down. This after I think it's 23 years sitting in a storage locker.
 

1970FuryConv

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Ok, so the new MC is on. Before I changed it, I was trying to bleed the front brakes, but wasn't getting anything out of the passenger side. Before hooking up the new MC I tried blowing compressed air through that front line with the bleed screw out, but air would not flow. Long story short, the flex line was plugged. I took it off, ran a wire through it (back and forth, a lot) and ran water though it, black stuff flowed out, but now the line is clear. It looks to be in good shape, not cracked or anything (but it is probably 30 years old). Canada tire has one for like 8 bucks but will take a couple days to get, so I said sure, but I put the old line back on (these lines really could be a few inches longer if you ask me). Connected up all the lines, bled them all, peddle is hard now. I suppose with the engine running the first peddle push it will go to the floor (why does that happen?) but it will probably come back up with more pushes. I'll see if that's how it goes tomorrow.

I did start the engine a week or so ago, it started like a champ. Ran it for 10 minutes then shut it down. This after I think it's 23 years sitting in a storage locker.
Glad you're making progress!
If you have a hard pedal, why do you expect the pedal to go to the floor when you start it?
 

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With power brakes, the pedal should sink a little from starting engine and providing vacuum to the booster - with cams with lots of overlap, good luck - but never to the floor. It's just assist.

If the brake pedal sinks to the floor on a hard hold and there aren't any air in the lines issues, then the MC is defective.
 

MoPar~Man

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I just seemed to remember, way back, when working on brakes, that I'd get a hard pedal but then first time with the engine running I'd press the pedal and it would go way down, then I'd pump it once or twice more and i'd be right up there, rock solid.

Didn't happen today. Started it up, pressed the brake and it was up there and solid. My plan today was just to put it in gear, just keeping it idle, let my foot off the brake and see if it would move. But it didn't. When it was stone cold, the trans fluid was showing an inch or two above full. After idling for 5, 10 minutes, engine too warm to touch, trans in neutral, the oil is below the dip stick. I don't see it. With the engine off, trans in neutral, presumably warm (if not hot), oil is half way from the bottom of the stick to the add-1-pint (or quart?). There's only an inch from the bottom of the stick to that line, and it's half way to the line (again, engine not running but oil is not cold).

So I guess I will be adding some, recommendations welcome, I'll have to see what I have on the shelf. I do have ATF +4 (for chrysler vehicles) and it's red (the stuff in the trans is red). My hazy recollection is that during my restoration the trans was overhauled by a shop, probably a "Mr. Transmission". That would have been 1987 give or take a year. I think I put 5 to 10k miles on the car from then till about 1999 and then it went into storage.

Is the trans picky about fluid level? If I was 2 pints (or quarts?) short, would it not engage and move the car?

Edit: Based on what I'm reading, I probably would like something like Pennzoil Type F in this Monaco's 727, and even if it didn't have it now, I could probably add it to top it up regardless what it currently has? (what ever is in there now, it's very clear / clean, hard to see on the dip stick).
 
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Big_John

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When it was stone cold, the trans fluid was showing an inch or two above full. After idling for 5, 10 minutes, engine too warm to touch, trans in neutral, the oil is below the dip stick. I don't see it. With the engine off, trans in neutral, presumably warm (if not hot), oil is half way from the bottom of the stick to the add-1-pint (or quart?). There's only an inch from the bottom of the stick to that line, and it's half way to the line (again, engine not running but oil is not cold).
Stop even thinking about the level when the engine is off. For what you need right now, it's meaningless. The fluid should be at the marks on the dipstick, engine running and trans in neutral.
Is the trans picky about fluid level? If I was 2 pints (or quarts?) short, would it not engage and move the car?
If it's not on the dipstick period, you have no idea where the level really is. Again, check with engine running trans in neutral.

Add 1/2 a quart at a time until you get the fluid to the low mark. Shift through the gears and check it again. Drive it and check again when hot.


1664154163617.png
 
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MoPar~Man

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Tonight I asked my dad about the transmission work. He noticed that some sort of boot at the rear of the transmission wasn't there and asked them whats with that. They - or as my dad put it - 'the dumb shts' - told him that 'well its best to leave it out to allow for drainage of any water/moisture in the transmission'.

Could there be anything to that? Should I be looking for a rear seal that isin't there? Might account for the ATF loss?
 

Big_John

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Tonight I asked my dad about the transmission work. He noticed that some sort of boot at the rear of the transmission wasn't there and asked them whats with that. They - or as my dad put it - 'the dumb shts' - told him that 'well its best to leave it out to allow for drainage of any water/moisture in the transmission'.

Could there be anything to that? Should I be looking for a rear seal that isin't there? Might account for the ATF loss?
There's a couple different rear seals. One has a rubber boot that acts as a dust shield and the other doesn't. They both work just fine and you'll see the one without the dust seal more often in rebuild kits.

So I'll bet the seal is there and your Dad is used to seeing the type with the boot. Note the drain hole in the boot for moisture.

Here's a pic I found with a search.

1664197013501.png


For the amount of fluid you are down, there would be a huge puddle under the car. Just fill it correctly and try it.
 

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I'd get a hard pedal but then first time with the engine running I'd press the pedal and it would go way down, then I'd pump it once or twice more and i'd be right up there, rock solid.

Without the booster factor, I'd say that's a classic sign of air in the lines. Initial pedal always sucks, second or third stab is much firmer if you're still alive.


Pennzoil Type F in this Monaco's 727

Type F if for Ford so no.


Use Dexron II, they used to call it, now Dexron/Mercon, and buy it by the gallons, if not pail size.

Me an kiddo were at NAPA not long ago, I noticed the shelf price, $10.69 a quart, a sure sign of end times, but you don't have to pay that crazy price per quart, buy bulk.
 

MoPar~Man

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Based on what I've seen doing searches, lots of people use and love the type F in the 727. Say it gives more solid shifts. One comment was that type F has no friction modifiers. Have not seen any comment saying type F is bad for a 727. My only other choice would have been ATF +4 (which I have some, bought it to refill the power steering in my '01 ram after replacing the lower steering gear seal, doesn't seem to be any other fluid available for PS except for that). I've never bought Dexron / Mercon to my knowledge.

The water drain hole in the dust boot is interesting. Must be something to that idea of water accumulation there. I'm going to have a better look under the car, get a photo, but I recall seeing something must have been leaking under the center of the car, I thought it a strange place to see that, must have been the AT fluid. The stuff must evaporate, it has been years sitting there, it's more of a wet stain on the concrete.

I've got a lot to clean as far as the concrete floor of this storage unit. Any suggestions?
 

Big_John

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Based on what I've seen doing searches, lots of people use and love the type F in the 727. Say it gives more solid shifts. One comment was that type F has no friction modifiers. Have not seen any comment saying type F is bad for a 727. My only other choice would have been ATF +4 (which I have some, bought it to refill the power steering in my '01 ram after replacing the lower steering gear seal, doesn't seem to be any other fluid available for PS except for that). I've never bought Dexron / Mercon to my knowledge.

The water drain hole in the dust boot is interesting. Must be something to that idea of water accumulation there. I'm going to have a better look under the car, get a photo, but I recall seeing something must have been leaking under the center of the car, I thought it a strange place to see that, must have been the AT fluid. The stuff must evaporate, it has been years sitting there, it's more of a wet stain on the concrete.

I've got a lot to clean as far as the concrete floor of this storage unit. Any suggestions?
I've used Type F with no issues. I was told it had more "friction modifiers" in it and it would give a harder shift. Since that advice came from a Chrysler transmission engineer, I take it as the proper advice. I've heard the same from racing trans builders way back when. That said, I would use the Dexron II (or whatever it is) as we're not talking about a drag car with a modified trans here.

ATF does not evaporate, and about any old car will mark its territory as it sits for years. A quart or two is a big puddle. The concrete might soak up a little, but not much if any. Take a quart milk bottle, fill it full of water and dump it out on the sidewalk for reference if you need to. Trans fluid is even worse.

You are overthinking this.... Just buy two or three quarts of trans fluid and get the level where it needs to be.

To get up the stain, try dumping some cheap cat litter, the clay type, on it and the sweep it back and forth. Then take a 2 x 4 scrap and scrub the floor with the litter.

BTW, fresh snow is the best for picking up a big trans fluid puddle. Doesn't really work with motor oil though. Found this out the hard way.. LOL.
 

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Ok, so I put 1 liter jug (I think actually 946 ml) of ATF in, knowing I'm down probably more than that. Then started the engine, went through the gears. The car will now move when in gear. Let it warm up (no idea if the ATF gets warm, or is supposed to get warm or hot, but engine is now warm/hot). Put it in neutral, I now see the oil, it's under the add mark. I add another jug, now the level looks exactly on full. Car will now move forward and reverse, so this is good. It's still parked in storage unit, I'm not moving it more than a few feet back and forth so far. I'm at the point when I will take it out when the weather turns good (it's cold and raining here now, after weeks / months of hot and dry).

Here's a photo of the transmission back end:

trans-rear-seal.jpg


So there is a seal, but no dust boot at all. I have no idea why the drive shaft (propeller shaft?) flywheel has a wet look to it. No idea what's causing it.

I probably should grease the U joints, but I can't find my grease gun, and everyone around here has sold out of what I'd want to buy (a gun that takes a smaller cartridge and has a flexible line, not solid line).
 

MoPar~Man

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From here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/atf-friction-modifier-purpose.308657/

--------------------
Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series. Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement. Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic. The ATF+ fluids are highly friction modified. For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/
-------------------

This also says Type F has reduced amount of friction modifiers:


This also indicates that type F is a non--friction modified fluid:


I think that faster clutch engagement is what you get with type F, I'm wondering if it also gives you better torque convertor efficiency (ie - better MPG?)
 

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flywheel has a wet look to it. No idea what's causing it.

Wet spots mean nothing, unless you see a drip and corresponding puddle, it's not a leak, in truck shop parlance "it's a weep".


I probably should grease the U joints

We used a lightweight black moly grease when I worked in a driveline shop, so the needles can roll. Don't use heavy chassis grease. NLG2 Shell Heavy Duty is what I've been using for decades, now called Gladus.
 

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Loadrunner

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A leak leaves a puddle on the floor.

The main reason the output shaft seal leaks is usually a worn bushing letting the dshaft wallow around.
 

MoPar~Man

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Yea, but I see no leak at the output shaft seal. It's bone dry. Something has been leaking from this area, there's a wet stain on the floor under this area.
 
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