Brake Shoes/Linings: Rivets or Bonded - Which is Better?

[Boomer]

Getting ready to rebuild the brakes on my '66 Imperial. While looking for new shoes I came across so re-lined shoes, some with rivets, some that were bonded. Just curious to know if there's a preference or any known failure issues with one of the other. Pretty sure I've used both types over the years on other vehicles, but this boat is considerably larger and heavier, and will also be carrying my wife and 5 yr old daughter at times. I want to be sure to do it right.

Thanks.

 

[jorkkeri72]

rivets

 

[mrfury68]

Rivets. What I understood about rivets being a better shoe than bonded was a riveted lining dissipates heat better. On our big, heavy cars this was an important consideration.

 

[FURYGT]

Do yourself a favor and find some NOS or old replacement brake shoes made back when asbestos was used. I have found that the new brake shoe material is junk. After a few years and a few thousand miles the brake lining material starts to crack and sometimes breaks up. In addition the new stuff IMHO does not stop as well as the old stuff.

 

[Davea Lux]

Getting ready to rebuild the brakes on my '66 Imperial. While looking for new shoes I came across so re-lined shoes, some with rivets, some that were bonded. Just curious to know if there's a preference or any known failure issues with one of the other. Pretty sure I've used both types over the years on other vehicles, but this boat is considerably larger and heavier, and will also be carrying my wife and 5 yr old daughter at times. I want to be sure to do it right.

Thanks.

Nearly all of this era Mopar vehicles came with bonded brake pads from the factory. The factory units were a high quality asbestos product that held up well. This would be you best option. These can still be ordered out of Canada and there is a supplier in New York that has replacement asbestos shoes. The non-asbestos shoes shoes in the Wagner or Raybestos line are a replacement that hold up reasonably well. Whatever you do, do not use the Centric or other cheap crap out of China. Their stuff is just junk. In a quality brake shoe I never found a whole lot of difference in stopping power on bonded vs riveted shoes for a daily driver application. For a severe service application, stay with riveted shoes.

Dave

 

[CBODY67]

GM used rivets, Chrysler used bonded. GM probably did that to save cost, Chrysler made their decision on other criteria, I suspect.

In some of the old literature, it was noted that a riveted lining could develop cracks and those cracks would get bigger until that part of the lining broke off. Then it was not pretty, inside OR outside. Bonded linings would have no reason to crack and break as the whole lining is attached, rather than relying upon small bits of lining (under the rivets) to hold it in place.

Heat transfer from the lining to the shoe? "Total contact" is better than four or six major contact points, about the size of the end of your little finger . . . provided the curvature of the friction material exactly matches that of the brake shoe.

And, as the friction material is about the same thickness on either type of lining, more potential life in the bonded lining as you can possibly wear it until all friction is gone. On the other one, you hit "rivets" first, with lining still left that you can't use.

You can also be interested in the "letter code" on the side of the lining, otherwise known as "edge code" This identifies the origin of the lining, the date produced, AND the "heat codes, cold and hot). Of interest are the two letter for lining heat tolerance. From about C to F? Look for the higher letters, with the second letter hopefully being a little higher than the first. Something the FMVSS started requiring a while back. Same for disc brake pads, too. Price does not always mean "higher codes". One guy in another forum found the high-heat tolerance in the house brand pads for his Neon, which he autocrossed.

Either way, you'll probably get frictions that are "to standard". Yet there are some engineering orientations and such for either type of lining attachment. Just keep your purchase documentation should any issues arise.

CBODY67

 

[fury fan]

Good info, Mr 67.

Personally, I don't think there's anyone on a webforum anywhere that has done enough back-to-back testing, in a scientific manner, to say what's good or what's bad. Asbestos was definitely a heat-resistant product in its day, but to say that 50 years later engineering and chemistry haven't come up with anything better? I don't believe that. Do I know what's good? No.

 

[CBODY67]

Brake friction technology is a constantly-evolving situation. In the middle-'50s, a Dallas, TX based string of brake shops touted their "Brakes with Brass" as being better than other brands. According to what's at allpar.com in Curtis Redgap's article on the '56 CHP police car tests, where a '56 Dodge with Chrysler-supplied metallic linings ran their tough brake tests and still stopped well (a rebuilder in Amarillo, TX was the supplier of those brake sets), then came the VelveTouch brake linings of the earlier 1960s which tested better than any other brand of brake shoes (if you can find that article, using a '60 Ford Galaxie for their test vehicle), you will also find pictures of failed brake shoes!), as metallic friction materials became more widely-used on high-speed-capable vehicles (i.e., 1961 Chevy Impala SS), although many drag racers put normal shoes on them so they could stage the cars (with cold brakes). The late '60s saw new FMVSS pedal pressure/deceleration rate specs OEMs had to meet. Metallic frictions, as "carbon graphite" frictions came online in the aftermarket. And now, the copper in the frictions is being deleted for water pollution issues, as ceramic frictions are becoming OEM in many cases. Ceramics tend to be more abrasive to the brake disc or drum, so GM started "cryogenic" treatment of their OEM brake items. As metallic were more abrasive than organics. Unless you've tried to keep up with these things, over the years, you get the best stuff the auto supply carries and go on down the road.

Where might things end up in another 20 years? Not sure, but possibly all of the remaining OEM NOS brake linings/frictions might have "shelf cured" and become harder with age, which might well affect their ultimate frictional characteristics to a certain extent.

Many of the better replacement brands have a "normal" product, an upgrade product, then a towing/hd/police vehicle product. As time progresses, though, the options we might have for our '60s+ cars will surely continue to decrease. Not being able to get the widest linings any more, for example, but the narrower ones. Either you find a reputable rebuilder (possibly an entity tied to a truck parts operation) and get your existing shoes re-done, or you deal with the local auto supply operatives. Some will be faced with a "brick wall" at the local auto supply as others will seek out other sources, by observation. OR you wave the magic plastic and UPS/FedEx brings them. Getting new brake drums can be worse!

So, good luck, y'all. Get the best brakes you can afford, from "somewhere". Drive Defensively and Responsibly.

Enjoy whenever necessary!
CBODY67

 

[Davea Lux]

Brake friction technology is a constantly-evolving situation. In the middle-'50s, a Dallas, TX based string of brake shops touted their "Brakes with Brass" as being better than other brands. According to what's at allpar.com in Curtis Redgap's article on the '56 CHP police car tests, where a '56 Dodge with Chrysler-supplied metallic linings ran their tough brake tests and still stopped well (a rebuilder in Amarillo, TX was the supplier of those brake sets), then came the VelveTouch brake linings of the earlier 1960s which tested better than any other brand of brake shoes (if you can find that article, using a '60 Ford Galaxie for their test vehicle), you will also find pictures of failed brake shoes!), as metallic friction materials became more widely-used on high-speed-capable vehicles (i.e., 1961 Chevy Impala SS), although many drag racers put normal shoes on them so they could stage the cars (with cold brakes). The late '60s saw new FMVSS pedal pressure/deceleration rate specs OEMs had to meet. Metallic frictions, as "carbon graphite" frictions came online in the aftermarket. And now, the copper in the frictions is being deleted for water pollution issues, as ceramic frictions are becoming OEM in many cases. Ceramics tend to be more abrasive to the brake disc or drum, so GM started "cryogenic" treatment of their OEM brake items. As metallic were more abrasive than organics. Unless you've tried to keep up with these things, over the years, you get the best stuff the auto supply carries and go on down the road.

Where might things end up in another 20 years? Not sure, but possibly all of the remaining OEM NOS brake linings/frictions might have "shelf cured" and become harder with age, which might well affect their ultimate frictional characteristics to a certain extent.

Many of the better replacement brands have a "normal" product, an upgrade product, then a towing/hd/police vehicle product. As time progresses, though, the options we might have for our '60s+ cars will surely continue to decrease. Not being able to get the widest linings any more, for example, but the narrower ones. Either you find a reputable rebuilder (possibly an entity tied to a truck parts operation) and get your existing shoes re-done, or you deal with the local auto supply operatives. Some will be faced with a "brick wall" at the local auto supply as others will seek out other sources, by observation. OR you wave the magic plastic and UPS/FedEx brings them. Getting new brake drums can be worse!

So, good luck, y'all. Get the best brakes you can afford, from "somewhere". Drive Defensively and Responsibly.

Enjoy whenever necessary!
CBODY67

I remember the VelveTouch linings, the were some really tough material that had good anti-fade performance for the time. Down side was that you could install them on new drums and the drums would be .60 oversized by the time the shoes were at 40%.

Dave

 

[69furyIII]

Who makes the best front and rear riveted shoes.

 

[fury fan]

It's ironic that Velvetouch used a Ford for a brake test. From what I've read, Fords weren't known for good brakes back then?
Perhaps that's a reason *to* use a Ford, but what would you say afterward? 'If we can do this for a Ford, imagine what we can do for *your* car'???

 

[fury fan]

It's ironic that Velvetouch used a Ford for a brake test. From what I've read, Fords weren't known for good brakes back then?
Perhaps that's a reason *to* use a Ford, but what would you say afterward? 'If we can do this for a Ford, imagine what we can do for *your* car'???

 

[Big_John]

I never used riveted linings because the rivets would tear up the drums if the linings wore down too far or failed... and that was when you could buy new drums.

 

[Boomer]

A lot of excellent info there guys, Thank you. I've never had a problem with either, though I've heard those 3rd-hand stories about both (my neighbor's brother's friend had one of the bonded shoes come apart, a friend knows this guy who's brother is a mechanic...). I always wondered about rivets ripping up the drums too, but never had any shoes get that thin I guess. Seems if they did, it would be a case of bye-bye lining pretty fast.

I'm actually looking at older, USA-relined shoes that have been around a while, closed shops, etc. being liquidated. They are all the pre-EPA asbestos based material, which is preferable since I won't be blowing out the brake drum dust anymore. The things we did when we were younger and didn't know any better. Makes you wonder: health-wise, are we all just a bunch of ticking time bombs, ready to crap out at any moment for our past sins?

Will likely go with bonded for the reasons cited (possible cracking, tearing up drums) and because it's clearly a method in use for many decades which would've been ditched long ago if it was a problem. Problems = loss of $, after all.

 

[CBODY67]

Not sure why they used a '60 Ford Galaxie coupe, but I know that GM brakes were notorious for taking some drying-out if you got within about 3 ft of a water puddle. Never had anything of that magnitude with our '66 Newport.


CBODY67

 

[68PK21 440.6bbl]

Heh I went with Full Raybestos Metallic all around on my 68 PK21's with Budd Disc brakes.
Standard pads & shoes would fade out after 2 or 3 full panic stops at 90mph.
Metallic would give me plenty of stopping power 6x at 100+mph.
Then the rotors started to heat crack, plus everyone that pulled up next to me in traffic would lecture me that I needed a brake job due to all the squeaking. Fun time

 

[CBODY67]

In the later '90s, a lady brought her recently-new Corvette in with "squeaking brakes". The car probably never got past 65mph. No matter that the factory system had to be able to stop the car from 175mph, should the need arise.

Glad to hear you had good results with what you got!

CBODY67

 

[mobileparts]

Hey, Boomer, where did you go??????????????

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Any new lining rule of thumb is the darker the color the better. The very light colored shoes will not take heat as well and will stink for thousands of miles. Since all of our cars are fair weather drivers I would just use bonded ( no bad weather in your drums to rust the irons swelling them and popping the lining off) the rivets will prevent separation like above but with non use periods they can become the source of rust spot, causing cracking and chipping the lining material.

 

[Gerald Morris]

OK, what sort of front drums have you got?